Talk:Croatian Identity

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Croatia (Hrvatska)

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"The reason for the pope's sharing such concerns with a Croatian prince is that Bulgaria apparently bordered Croatia ... Branimir (879–892) appears in no less than five Latin inscriptions. One of them was found in Nin and calls Branimir..."


Note to self:

  • Imaginary history (written text, assortment of paintings, fake Croatian identities i.e Marco Polo)
  • Language issues (using a Herzegovina Slavic Language for creating a standard constructed language i.e Serbo-Croatian for a super SLAVIC state 19 century style & then imposing it on others and ignoring their mother tongue !!!).

(What's in a Name: The Case of Serbo-Croatian by R Bugarski - 2004 link)

A group of Slavic tribes settle in the Dalmatian Hinterland (Roman Dalmatia). They spoke old Slavic-Chakavian. Their leader from 880s was referred to as (in Latin): "Branimiro comite dux cruatorum cogitavit" thus indicating a Slavic connection with the Sarmatian tribes. Ducatus Croatiae was created (late 9th century) then a kingdom was created and it was called Kingdom of Croatia (925–1102 AD).

Guduscani, a Vandals, Goths tribe on the western part of Ducatus Croatiae .

Note to self: There is a major difference between...

  • raids
  • settlement
  • mass migrations

Note to self:

  • Roman Latin-Illyrian population (Croatian men are the descendants of Europeans who inhabited Europe 13 000-20 000 years ago.) plus Celts, Liburnians,Greeks
  • The Ostrogoths (a Germanic tribe related to the Goths)
  • Slavs (intermixed with Sarmatians)
  • Within the Kingdom of Croatian (925–1102AD) all of her citizens weren't ethnic Croatian Slavs.

The Kingdom of Croatian was ruled by a Slavic nobility from the Dalmatian hinterland

The Kingdom of Croatian was ruled by a Slavic nobility from the Dalmatian hinterland with a historic connection with Sarmatian tribes who referred to themselves as Hrvati or in English Croatians. According to the Baska tablet (1100 AD) they spoke Slavic Chakavian. The Kingdom of Croatian was named after her ruling class, which in tern ruled a medieval multi-ethnic state. This in the 19th and 20th century became a constructed Croatian Identity. The centre of political power of the Croatian Slavs shifted during the Ottoman invasions. The shift was from the Dalmatian hinterland to to-days city of Zagreb.

Old Slavic Chakavian should be seen as a language in its own right, not a dialect. In the 19 century a fundamental mistake was made when political extremist ideology influenced culture and political decision making. It was a attempt at imitating Western imperial empire building egotism which failed with truly tragic historic events.

In 1850, a small group of Illyrian (Croatian) and Serbian representatives signed the "Vienna agreement". This agreement was indeed the basis and the start of regions problems.

  • Baska tablet (1100 AD)
“ AZ V' IME OTCA I S(I)NA I SVETAGO DUHA AZ'

OPAT' DR'ŽIHA PISAH SE O LEDINE JuŽE

DA Z'V'NIM(I)R KRAL' HR'VAT'SKI V'

DNI SVOE V' SVETUJu LUCIJu I SVEDO -

MI ŽUPAN' DESIMIRA KR'BAVE MARTIN' V L(I) -

CE PRB'NEBŽA S' POSL' VIN(0)DOLE JaK(O)V' V O-

TOCE DA IŽE TO POREČE KL'NI I BO(G) I *BÏ* AP(OSTO)LA I *G* E -

VANJELISTI I S(VE)TAJa LUCIJa AM(E)N' DA IŽE SDE ŽIVE -

T' MOLI ZA NE BOGA AZ OPAT' DBROVIT' Z' -

DAH' CREK'V' SIJu I SVOEJu BRATIJu S DEV -

ETIJu V' DNI K'NEZA KOS'M'TA OBLAD -

AJuĆAGO V'SU K'RAINU I BJeŠE V' T' DNI M -

IKULA V' OTOČ'CI S' SVETUJu LUCIJu V' EDINO

”

Old Croatian (Chakavian with elements of liturgical Church Slavonic), translated in 1875: "I, in the name of Father and Son and the Holy Spirit, I abbot Drzhiha, wrote this about the plot of land which was given by Zvonimir, the Croatian King, in his days to St. Lucy and witnesses [are]: Desimir, Prefect of Krbava, Martin in Lika, Pribinezha, clerk in Vinodol, Jacob on the island. If anyone denies it, let him be cursed by 12 Apostles and 4 evangelists and St. Lucy. Let anyone who lives here prays God for them. I abbot Dobrovit built this church with my nine brethren at the time of Prince Kosmat who ruled the whole Country. In those days Mikula was in Otochac with St. Lucy together."

  • Valun tablet (11th century)
  • Plomin tablet

Danijel Dzino:

  • "In addition, pope Gregory the Great mentioned the 'Slav' raid of Istria in a worried letter to Maximus the" this is regarding Slavic raids north of Dalmatia in 600AD. May be the first mention of Slavs arriving in Roman Dalmatian but as Danijel Dzino states it does not have to mean "mass migrations". Becoming Slav, Becoming Croat: Identity Transformations in ... Page 88

John Van Antwerp Fine:


Translation

(Croatian)

Jedan od prvih primarni izvor spomenuti hrvatsko-Hrvat identitet na Balkanu je Dux Cruatorum Branimero ili kneza Branimira (latinski: dux Croatorum). On se pojavio na kameni natpis, c. 880 AD. Kneza Branimira je Slaven iz Dalmacija. Hrvat ili Horoúathos su imena od Sarmat podrijetla. U 1853 Ruski arheolog Pavel Mihajlovič Leontjev otkrio Tanaisa tablete. Tablete Tanaisa spominju tri čovjeka: Horoúathos, Horoathos i Horoathos (Χορούαθ [ος], Χοροάθος, Χορόαθος). Oni su pisani na grčkom i u 3. stoljeća iz grada Tanaisa, današnjeg Azov, Rusiji. U to vrijeme regija je imala mješoviti Grčki - sarmat (iranski) populacije. Termin slavenski prvi su upotrijebili Bizant (tj. Prokop-bizantski učenjak, Jordanes-6. stoljeća rimski birokrata), i bio zabilježen je u 6. st. (cia. 550) na grčki (Σκλαβῖνοι-Sklabenoi). Kasnije na latinskom je pisana Sclaveni.

This is interesting: www.hic.hr: Latin as a literary language among the Croats (up till 1848), Vecernji.hr: Preživjeli ledeno doba: Hrvati su prastanovnici Europe (Vecernji.hr: Surviving an ice age: the Croats are descendants of prehistoric Europe)

  • More than three quarters of today's Croatian men are the descendants of Europeans who inhabited Europe 13000-20000 years ago. They survived the last ice age within certain regions on Europe.

The Early Beginnings of Formal Education - Vela Luka (beginnings of literacy and Lower Primary School 1857 – 1870): "Talijanski je jezik bio ne samo službeni jezik u svim dalmatinskim javnim usta-novama, već pretežito i govorni jezik u znatnom broju činovničkih, službeničkih i tr-govačkih obitelji u gradovima i većim trgovištima." (Italian language was not only the official language in all public Dalmatian establishments, but also was the spoken language in a significant number of white-collar, civil service and merchant families in the cities and major markets within towns)



  • Since your here have a listen to Australia's Lisa Gerrard - Now we are free


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