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, 18:11, 5 July 2015Created page with "<pre> Session Start: Sat Jul 04 21:23:37 2015 Session Ident: #wikipedia-en [21:23:37] * Now talking in #wikipedia-en [21:23:37] * Topic is 'English Wikipedia | Status: Up - ht..."
<pre>
Session Start: Sat Jul 04 21:23:37 2015
Session Ident: #wikipedia-en
[21:23:37] * Now talking in #wikipedia-en
[21:23:37] * Topic is 'English Wikipedia | Status: Up - http://status.wikimedia.org/ | Channel guidelines: http://bit.ly/WP-IRC | Need a chanop? Ask here or in #wikimedia-ops | For urgent admin help, say !admin <request>; for revdel, /join #wikipedia-en-revdel | No public logging | SUL finalization complete. Please check https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAuth for the status of your account'
[21:23:37] * Set by Glaisher!Philon@wikimedia/Glaisher on Tue Jun 09 10:07:33 2015
[21:23:37] -card.freenode.net:#wikipedia-en- [freenode-info] please register your nickname...don't forget to auto-identify! http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
[21:23:37] #wikipedia-en url is https://en.wikipedia.org/
[21:24:02] * yohnnyjoe (~yohnnyjoe@cpe-65-184-131-84.ec.res.rr.com) Quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1)
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[21:41:27] * NickW557 (nickw557@cpe-107-184-28-78.socal.res.rr.com) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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[22:31:07] * Pheeps (~KVIrc@66.243.225.7) has joined #wikipedia-en
[22:32:14] <Pheeps> wikibooks.org needs a separate password from the one used in wikipedia.org?
[22:33:34] * darev (~darev@p54AA82FE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) Quit
[22:34:21] <Pheeps> ah . . . apparently not. ok.
[22:34:31] <Qcoder00> Did the relevant module also gets fixed?
[22:34:42] <Qcoder00> (the one the vandal was using to casue problems?
[22:36:20] * Samwalton9 (~Samwalton@wikipedia/Samwalton9) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[22:40:38] * Keegan is now known as Keegan|Away
[22:44:53] <comets> Happy Treason Day americans :D
[22:46:36] <Pheeps> it would be absurd to require a different password for each sister project: Wikipedia, Wikiversity, Wiktionary, Wikiquote, Wikisource, Wikinews, Wikivoyage, Commons, Wikidata . . . 9 different passwords for 9 different usernames . . . oh good grief!
[22:46:41] * foks (~sup@wikipedia/fox) has joined #wikipedia-en
[22:47:46] <JohnFLewis> Pheeps: there's more technically
[22:48:06] <Pheeps> comets: the traitors being who? the Cheney and his retarded kid playing President? yeh; treasonous fuckers.
[22:49:54] <Pheeps> 1 username/password works fine, thank you.
[22:51:31] <foks> what
[22:53:53] * Keegan|Away is now known as Keegan
[22:58:34] * Keegan is now known as Keegan|Away
[23:01:35] * IDoH|AfIRC is now known as IDoH
[23:05:05] <IDoH> <git> [17:02:02] someone templated me <git> [17:02:19] telling me not to csd articles as soon as they're created <-----It's best to wait 10-15 minutes sometimes.
[23:05:16] * pleclown (~pipo@178-83-217-92.dynamic.hispeed.ch) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[23:06:09] * ceradon (ccec759c@wikimedia/Ceradon) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[23:09:54] <nakon> it really depends on the article
[23:10:17] <nakon> if it's anything other than a possible A7 then it's generally OK to tag immediately
[23:10:27] * pleclown (~pipo@178-83-217-92.dynamic.hispeed.ch) has joined #wikipedia-en
[23:10:45] <nakon> @IDoH
[23:11:27] <IDoH> nakon: Or A1. Or A3.
[23:12:25] <nakon> those two are usually fine to tag immediately...
[23:13:17] <IDoH> No, they're pretty much never fine to tag immediately.
[23:13:39] <nakon> not following
[23:14:14] <IDoH> They're the prime example of "Give people more time" and "CSD templates bites newcomers" because they're lack of context and content, respectively.
[23:14:53] <nakon> if they need more time, the page can be moved to userspace
[23:15:09] <nakon> i agree that outright deletion is BITE-y
[23:15:35] <nakon> but there's no need to delay removal of cruft from the mainspace if it's done properly
[23:15:49] <IDoH> True, but is it worth it to do that every single time, particularly when it's going to clearer in 10-15 minutes what is going to happen?
[23:16:07] <IDoH> CSD isn't for removal of cruft. That's for AfD.
[23:16:30] <nakon> my defnition of "cruft" may be lacking, then
[23:16:49] <IDoH> Or if the article is cruft and sitting around for months or years without improvement, it goes to PROD.
[23:16:57] <IDoH> nakon: Overly detailed fandom articles.
[23:16:59] <nakon> That's what G13 is for
[23:17:12] <nakon> if it's done in the proper namespaces
[23:17:21] <nakon> which isn't always the case, sadly
[23:17:27] <NotASpy> if it's a pretty rubbish new article, send it to draft.
[23:17:44] <IDoH> nakon: No, G13 is for abandoned drafts.
[23:17:57] <nakon> NotASpy: generally, yes.
[23:17:58] <IDoH> NotASpy: I've userfied articles in the past.
[23:20:51] <nakon> however, we can't harp on the NPP editors just because they're tagging new articles. they clearly don't meet our criteria for inclusion so either deleting them outright or moving them to draft space for deletion in 6 months is going to give the same result
[23:21:00] <nakon> I'm more than open for a third option
[23:21:38] <IDoH> nakon: With most tags, I'd agree, but I disagree with A1 and A3.
[23:21:48] <nakon> A1 is for articles like "lol ok"
[23:22:13] <nakon> A3, I may agree with you.
[23:22:16] <IDoH> No, that would be blatant vandalism.
[23:22:23] <nakon> that'
[23:22:25] <nakon> that'd be A3
[23:22:36] <nakon> yay acronym soup
[23:22:37] <IDoH> nakon: No, that'd be G3.
[23:22:43] <nakon> indeed
[23:22:48] <IDoH> Not A3.
[23:22:58] <IDoH> Or db-multiple|A3|G3 at most.
[23:23:15] <IDoH> But not A3 all by itself.
[23:23:21] <nakon> we're talking about the same thing
[23:23:27] <nakon> just not the same number
[23:23:27] <IDoH> No, we aren't
[23:23:58] <nakon> the articles that are "lol dong" don't need a delayed deletion requirement
[23:24:10] <IDoH> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Db-g3 vs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Db-a3.
[23:24:26] <IDoH> They don't. G3 is a CSD criterion.
[23:24:35] <nakon> whatever
[23:24:49] <IDoH> nakon: Are you a NPPer?
[23:24:55] <nakon> sure
[23:25:37] <IDoH> And you're A3'ing "lol dong"? That gives the wrong impression, that it's okay to vandalize as long there's context.
[23:26:09] <nakon> as I said, you're getting caught up on the numbers. we agree on the basic priniciple.
[23:26:13] <IDoH> Or as long as it's an article length full of vandalism.
[23:26:48] <NotASpy> you know that the Twinkle thing about not deleting new pages too quickly is just so people can create AfDs or nominate articles for deletion themselves. It's not actually about not biting newbies.
[23:27:25] <IDoH> Different CSD templates give different messages. People who write vandal articles are inevitably new editors, so it's best to be as clear as possible.
[23:27:56] <nakon> not at all. if they're making articles that fall under vandalism, they need to be removed regardless.
[23:28:12] <IDoH> True, but you need to tell them that they're vandalizing.
[23:28:14] <nakon> we're talking about obviously different things.
[23:28:26] * Keegan|Away is now known as Keegan
[23:28:36] <NotASpy> I would expect people know they're vandalising, unless it's some sort of sleepwalking related activity.
[23:28:40] <IDoH> LOL
[23:28:41] <IDoH> true
[23:28:54] * mmango (~mmango@unaffiliated/asdfasdffdsa) has joined #wikipedia-en
[23:28:57] <IDoH> it's easier to get a block if they're notified, though.
[23:29:07] <nakon> on your end, maybe
[23:29:12] <nakon> that may be where the disconnect is
[23:29:20] <NotASpy> and a lot of vandalism is meme or current affairs related nonsense that not everybody will understand.
[23:29:22] <IDoH> nakon: What do you mean?
[23:29:28] <IDoH> NotASpy: True
[23:29:50] <nakon> IDoH: sysops are generally going to block obvious vandalism regardless of warnings on a talk page
[23:30:19] <IDoH> Eh, not always. Go to AIV, and you will see "insufficiently warned" eventually.
[23:30:27] <nakon> that's true, and it's unfortunate.
[23:30:45] <IDoH> It depends on the sysop.
[23:30:54] <nakon> It's probably related to the high number of incorrect reports on AIV
[23:31:01] <IDoH> Probably.
[23:31:02] <NotASpy> deez nuts or whatever the fad at the moment is, is clearly a meme, but if you're not really aware about such memes, cos people ain't got no time for that shit, it's going to be treated as patent nonsense or gibberish instead of vandalism
[23:31:11] <nakon> indeed
[23:31:24] <nakon> I totally agree that it's based on the sysop
[23:31:29] <nakon> as unfortunate as that is :/
[23:31:39] <IDoH> NotASpy: Patent nonsense would make sense in place of vandalism, sometimes.
[23:31:42] * addshore (uid10233@wikimedia/addshore) Quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
[23:32:14] <NotASpy> yeah, so when deleting, you throw lots of additional deletion reasons into the deletion log.
[23:32:31] <IDoH> so, db-multiple|nonsense|vandalism, etc.
[23:33:00] <nakon> sure
[23:33:14] <nakon> this conversation has deviated from where we started, though
[23:33:26] <nakon> for that, I apologise
[23:34:06] <IDoH> nakon: Why would you apologize for that?
[23:34:44] <nakon> We were talking about a delay in tagging articles and I brought it to a discussion on AIV tagging
[23:35:01] <IDoH> That's how conversations work.
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Session Close: Sun Jul 05 00:00:00 2015
</pre>
Session Start: Sat Jul 04 21:23:37 2015
Session Ident: #wikipedia-en
[21:23:37] * Now talking in #wikipedia-en
[21:23:37] * Topic is 'English Wikipedia | Status: Up - http://status.wikimedia.org/ | Channel guidelines: http://bit.ly/WP-IRC | Need a chanop? Ask here or in #wikimedia-ops | For urgent admin help, say !admin <request>; for revdel, /join #wikipedia-en-revdel | No public logging | SUL finalization complete. Please check https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:CentralAuth for the status of your account'
[21:23:37] * Set by Glaisher!Philon@wikimedia/Glaisher on Tue Jun 09 10:07:33 2015
[21:23:37] -card.freenode.net:#wikipedia-en- [freenode-info] please register your nickname...don't forget to auto-identify! http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
[21:23:37] #wikipedia-en url is https://en.wikipedia.org/
[21:24:02] * yohnnyjoe (~yohnnyjoe@cpe-65-184-131-84.ec.res.rr.com) Quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1)
[21:29:54] * Keegan is now known as Keegan|Away
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[21:34:50] * Samwalton9_ is now known as Samwalton9
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[21:41:27] * NickW557 (nickw557@cpe-107-184-28-78.socal.res.rr.com) Quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[21:42:30] * ju99 (53d9b2b6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.83.217.178.182) Quit (Quit: Page closed)
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[22:06:32] * bigo72 (~bigo72@host85-60-dynamic.252-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) Quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
[22:08:56] * Keegan|Away is now known as Keegan
[22:09:10] * Spitfire (spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire) Quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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[22:31:07] * Pheeps (~KVIrc@66.243.225.7) has joined #wikipedia-en
[22:32:14] <Pheeps> wikibooks.org needs a separate password from the one used in wikipedia.org?
[22:33:34] * darev (~darev@p54AA82FE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) Quit
[22:34:21] <Pheeps> ah . . . apparently not. ok.
[22:34:31] <Qcoder00> Did the relevant module also gets fixed?
[22:34:42] <Qcoder00> (the one the vandal was using to casue problems?
[22:36:20] * Samwalton9 (~Samwalton@wikipedia/Samwalton9) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[22:40:38] * Keegan is now known as Keegan|Away
[22:44:53] <comets> Happy Treason Day americans :D
[22:46:36] <Pheeps> it would be absurd to require a different password for each sister project: Wikipedia, Wikiversity, Wiktionary, Wikiquote, Wikisource, Wikinews, Wikivoyage, Commons, Wikidata . . . 9 different passwords for 9 different usernames . . . oh good grief!
[22:46:41] * foks (~sup@wikipedia/fox) has joined #wikipedia-en
[22:47:46] <JohnFLewis> Pheeps: there's more technically
[22:48:06] <Pheeps> comets: the traitors being who? the Cheney and his retarded kid playing President? yeh; treasonous fuckers.
[22:49:54] <Pheeps> 1 username/password works fine, thank you.
[22:51:31] <foks> what
[22:53:53] * Keegan|Away is now known as Keegan
[22:58:34] * Keegan is now known as Keegan|Away
[23:01:35] * IDoH|AfIRC is now known as IDoH
[23:05:05] <IDoH> <git> [17:02:02] someone templated me <git> [17:02:19] telling me not to csd articles as soon as they're created <-----It's best to wait 10-15 minutes sometimes.
[23:05:16] * pleclown (~pipo@178-83-217-92.dynamic.hispeed.ch) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[23:06:09] * ceradon (ccec759c@wikimedia/Ceradon) Quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[23:09:54] <nakon> it really depends on the article
[23:10:17] <nakon> if it's anything other than a possible A7 then it's generally OK to tag immediately
[23:10:27] * pleclown (~pipo@178-83-217-92.dynamic.hispeed.ch) has joined #wikipedia-en
[23:10:45] <nakon> @IDoH
[23:11:27] <IDoH> nakon: Or A1. Or A3.
[23:12:25] <nakon> those two are usually fine to tag immediately...
[23:13:17] <IDoH> No, they're pretty much never fine to tag immediately.
[23:13:39] <nakon> not following
[23:14:14] <IDoH> They're the prime example of "Give people more time" and "CSD templates bites newcomers" because they're lack of context and content, respectively.
[23:14:53] <nakon> if they need more time, the page can be moved to userspace
[23:15:09] <nakon> i agree that outright deletion is BITE-y
[23:15:35] <nakon> but there's no need to delay removal of cruft from the mainspace if it's done properly
[23:15:49] <IDoH> True, but is it worth it to do that every single time, particularly when it's going to clearer in 10-15 minutes what is going to happen?
[23:16:07] <IDoH> CSD isn't for removal of cruft. That's for AfD.
[23:16:30] <nakon> my defnition of "cruft" may be lacking, then
[23:16:49] <IDoH> Or if the article is cruft and sitting around for months or years without improvement, it goes to PROD.
[23:16:57] <IDoH> nakon: Overly detailed fandom articles.
[23:16:59] <nakon> That's what G13 is for
[23:17:12] <nakon> if it's done in the proper namespaces
[23:17:21] <nakon> which isn't always the case, sadly
[23:17:27] <NotASpy> if it's a pretty rubbish new article, send it to draft.
[23:17:44] <IDoH> nakon: No, G13 is for abandoned drafts.
[23:17:57] <nakon> NotASpy: generally, yes.
[23:17:58] <IDoH> NotASpy: I've userfied articles in the past.
[23:20:51] <nakon> however, we can't harp on the NPP editors just because they're tagging new articles. they clearly don't meet our criteria for inclusion so either deleting them outright or moving them to draft space for deletion in 6 months is going to give the same result
[23:21:00] <nakon> I'm more than open for a third option
[23:21:38] <IDoH> nakon: With most tags, I'd agree, but I disagree with A1 and A3.
[23:21:48] <nakon> A1 is for articles like "lol ok"
[23:22:13] <nakon> A3, I may agree with you.
[23:22:16] <IDoH> No, that would be blatant vandalism.
[23:22:23] <nakon> that'
[23:22:25] <nakon> that'd be A3
[23:22:36] <nakon> yay acronym soup
[23:22:37] <IDoH> nakon: No, that'd be G3.
[23:22:43] <nakon> indeed
[23:22:48] <IDoH> Not A3.
[23:22:58] <IDoH> Or db-multiple|A3|G3 at most.
[23:23:15] <IDoH> But not A3 all by itself.
[23:23:21] <nakon> we're talking about the same thing
[23:23:27] <nakon> just not the same number
[23:23:27] <IDoH> No, we aren't
[23:23:58] <nakon> the articles that are "lol dong" don't need a delayed deletion requirement
[23:24:10] <IDoH> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Db-g3 vs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Db-a3.
[23:24:26] <IDoH> They don't. G3 is a CSD criterion.
[23:24:35] <nakon> whatever
[23:24:49] <IDoH> nakon: Are you a NPPer?
[23:24:55] <nakon> sure
[23:25:37] <IDoH> And you're A3'ing "lol dong"? That gives the wrong impression, that it's okay to vandalize as long there's context.
[23:26:09] <nakon> as I said, you're getting caught up on the numbers. we agree on the basic priniciple.
[23:26:13] <IDoH> Or as long as it's an article length full of vandalism.
[23:26:48] <NotASpy> you know that the Twinkle thing about not deleting new pages too quickly is just so people can create AfDs or nominate articles for deletion themselves. It's not actually about not biting newbies.
[23:27:25] <IDoH> Different CSD templates give different messages. People who write vandal articles are inevitably new editors, so it's best to be as clear as possible.
[23:27:56] <nakon> not at all. if they're making articles that fall under vandalism, they need to be removed regardless.
[23:28:12] <IDoH> True, but you need to tell them that they're vandalizing.
[23:28:14] <nakon> we're talking about obviously different things.
[23:28:26] * Keegan|Away is now known as Keegan
[23:28:36] <NotASpy> I would expect people know they're vandalising, unless it's some sort of sleepwalking related activity.
[23:28:40] <IDoH> LOL
[23:28:41] <IDoH> true
[23:28:54] * mmango (~mmango@unaffiliated/asdfasdffdsa) has joined #wikipedia-en
[23:28:57] <IDoH> it's easier to get a block if they're notified, though.
[23:29:07] <nakon> on your end, maybe
[23:29:12] <nakon> that may be where the disconnect is
[23:29:20] <NotASpy> and a lot of vandalism is meme or current affairs related nonsense that not everybody will understand.
[23:29:22] <IDoH> nakon: What do you mean?
[23:29:28] <IDoH> NotASpy: True
[23:29:50] <nakon> IDoH: sysops are generally going to block obvious vandalism regardless of warnings on a talk page
[23:30:19] <IDoH> Eh, not always. Go to AIV, and you will see "insufficiently warned" eventually.
[23:30:27] <nakon> that's true, and it's unfortunate.
[23:30:45] <IDoH> It depends on the sysop.
[23:30:54] <nakon> It's probably related to the high number of incorrect reports on AIV
[23:31:01] <IDoH> Probably.
[23:31:02] <NotASpy> deez nuts or whatever the fad at the moment is, is clearly a meme, but if you're not really aware about such memes, cos people ain't got no time for that shit, it's going to be treated as patent nonsense or gibberish instead of vandalism
[23:31:11] <nakon> indeed
[23:31:24] <nakon> I totally agree that it's based on the sysop
[23:31:29] <nakon> as unfortunate as that is :/
[23:31:39] <IDoH> NotASpy: Patent nonsense would make sense in place of vandalism, sometimes.
[23:31:42] * addshore (uid10233@wikimedia/addshore) Quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
[23:32:14] <NotASpy> yeah, so when deleting, you throw lots of additional deletion reasons into the deletion log.
[23:32:31] <IDoH> so, db-multiple|nonsense|vandalism, etc.
[23:33:00] <nakon> sure
[23:33:14] <nakon> this conversation has deviated from where we started, though
[23:33:26] <nakon> for that, I apologise
[23:34:06] <IDoH> nakon: Why would you apologize for that?
[23:34:44] <nakon> We were talking about a delay in tagging articles and I brought it to a discussion on AIV tagging
[23:35:01] <IDoH> That's how conversations work.
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