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Revision as of 20:50, 18 September 2008
, 20:50, 18 September 2008→The logorrheic thicket of words
* FT2, you really are not well versed in this area and perhaps you should get a medical person or epidemiologist to debate this with me.
* FT2, you really are not well versed in this area and perhaps you should get a medical person or epidemiologist to debate this with me.
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I reversed the changes made by FT2 on the grounds of "saving space" (very odd, when the page is otherwise chock-full of rambling drivel and hot air just begging to be culled, as numerous others have noted on these discussion pages). I shall continue to do so, and if this gets into a war I shall escalate it as far as I can. I believe the current edit is factual, informative, concise and fair. It took me a long time to put it all together. Looking back, I see that FT2 and this page's other habitual editors have allowed the health section to exist for a long time in an appalling format, and I quote from a few months ago: "Infections due to improper cleaning could be an issue for either party. Most viruses are specific to particular species and cannot be transmitted sexually, so humans and animals cannot catch many viral diseases from zoosexual acts." This misinformation and mealy-mouthed trivialization of peril borders on the criminal, like telling people not to bother wearing a condom when exposing themselves to HIV (a zoonosis itself!). "Improper cleaning" - pshaw! I have to wonder why it was allowed to exist in this blatantly incorrect form by the perennial editors of this page, like FT2 (who professes in his User Page to have a special interest in Science issues!) Skoppensboer 19:11, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
There clearly has been little to no attempt to save space in this article in a rigorous way. I'm thinking of calling for some sort of admin oversight to cut some of the fat and bloat from it. I see a lot of baroque flourishes that only people who are themselves involved with this fetish (I see zoophilia as a fetish, although it's a paraphilia in DSM-IV, but either way it's classed as a mental disorder by psychiatrists) would entertain or find relevant. This article seems to have become a place for members of the public with a rich fantasy life in this area to expand upon their obsessive thoughts and encourage each other. That's my honest impression. I'm not "sickened" by this article, as many commentators have stated, but I do find it to have strayed off course, away from encyclopedic towards something else. Definitely. Skoppensboer 15:11, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Last, I come back to the approach. You need to tone down statements that could come over as personal attack or otherwise untoward aggression. For example, threats to escalate rather than collaborate if your view is not agrreable to others in some areas, and bad faith casting such as "allowed to exist" and such with associated finger pointing. As explained above, the rationale for space is a historic one on this article. The fact that your personal pet section is not necessarily able to take all the space it might need is addressed by my earlier comment (which you have agreed) that a separate article on health aspects of zoophilia may be valuable. That would be the appropriate approach. Not hostile editing and threats of edit warring. Not misdescribing edits as some attempt to "nullify". And not from someone who has already stated a preference for hyperbole and using Wikipedia's article to make a point and whose understanding of the subject is limited to lead them to describe the article as "chock-full of rambling drivel and hot air". Thats... not very likely to get anyone much respect. Your good points are respected, but that doesn't mean your edits are unable to be improved and made more neutral. FT2 (Talk | email) 02:34, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
This is all argumentation and could equally apply to you. After all, who went ahead and completely rewrote the section without seeking any consensus here first, despite being so requested? Is this not the sort of behaviour likely to provoke disharmony? Think. Your sense of ownership of this page is a little inflated. Take a deep breath please. My other issue with the paragraph above is that some editors are so intent on expounding on their subject from a certain angle that for them, making an edit "more neutral" is tantamount to watering it down to suit an agenda of which they themselves may not be fully conscious. Skoppensboer 15:11, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
"Kernel of truth" - ha! You are now arguing medicine with me, and I suggest you get 3rd party input here, because you are wrong. Again, I'd welcome expert arbitration on these topics. Skoppensboer 15:11, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
I hope you see the problem, from my point of view. This simply appears like yet more agenda-based editorship, using exaggeration of health issues as the means. I do accept you are adding and substantiating valid information to a section that will benefit from it, and hope you can see in fact your information is being very carefully checked and questioned for precision (not censored), that good information is being retained and poor information filtered out, and that the issues being raised are in fact valid. In other words, please do edit - but edit with care. FT2 (Talk | email) 09:38, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Tit for tat. To my reading, which is perhaps wrong, your own editorship absolutely stinks of partiality and POV motivations. You have and continue to try to censor my little contribution, and I shall continue to oppose it and watch it indefinitely. And when I say "war", I mean bringing in the big boys. This article could benefit from a major overhaul anyway. Skoppensboer 15:11, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
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I stand by what I said. Your edits all tend to minimise perceived risk and your intention is clearly to give the entire topic a gloss of safety and normality, I presume for personal reasons. '''Let me ask you directly: are you a zoophile? We should be told. It would certainly help to explain your edits made without consensus-seeking'''. Skoppensboer 16:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I stand by what I said. Your edits all tend to minimise perceived risk and your intention is clearly to give the entire topic a gloss of safety and normality, I presume for personal reasons. '''Let me ask you directly: are you a zoophile? We should be told. It would certainly help to explain your edits made without consensus-seeking'''. Skoppensboer 16:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I am of the opinion that your repeated attempts to steer this issue towards a debate about my style as an editor, and way from the actual content of the article, are designed to change the goalposts halfway through the game. You persist in accusing me of a variety of editorial sins while yourself indulging in long-winded denunciations of my person in a way that can only escalate hostility. You have yet to address the fact that you significantly re-wrote the Health and Safety section without any attempt to seek consensus, despite my explicit request for such and despite Zetawoof's friendly participation in that consensus, and despite Zetawoof's agreement to the look of the section as it stood. So really, you are the one whose editorial style needs careful examination rather than I. '''I would hope any mediator would be able to see through the logorrheic thicket of words you spin, with your endless invocations of Wikipedia rules and tenets in a manner designed to cloak you in an aura of righteousness'''. I still await comment on the actual text, and hopefully some will be forthcoming. I suspect you know you are on shaky ground with this, for the text stands up well, hence your refocussing of the discussion with interminable ad hominems. As for taking a break, I'll take a permanent break if you agree not to gut the Health and Safety section again. I am also agreeable to spinning it off as a separate page with a {{main| tag linking it to the Zoophilia page H&S section, as I've offered before, and to which you have never agreed, your recent comment about this notwithstanding. Skoppensboer 05:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Zoophilia&oldid=92371032#Continued_attempts_to_nullify_health_issues]
I am of the opinion that your repeated attempts to steer this issue towards a debate about my style as an editor, and way from the actual content of the article, are designed to change the goalposts halfway through the game. You persist in accusing me of a variety of editorial sins while yourself indulging in long-winded denunciations of my person in a way that can only escalate hostility. You have yet to address the fact that you significantly re-wrote the Health and Safety section without any attempt to seek consensus, despite my explicit request for such and despite Zetawoof's friendly participation in that consensus, and despite Zetawoof's agreement to the look of the section as it stood. So really, you are the one whose editorial style needs careful examination rather than I. '''I would hope any mediator would be able to see through the logorrheic thicket of words you spin, with your endless invocations of Wikipedia rules and tenets in a manner designed to cloak you in an aura of righteousness'''. I still await comment on the actual text, and hopefully some will be forthcoming. I suspect you know you are on shaky ground with this, for the text stands up well, hence your refocussing of the discussion with interminable ad hominems. As for taking a break, I'll take a permanent break if you agree not to gut the Health and Safety section again. I am also agreeable to spinning it off as a separate page with a {{main| tag linking it to the Zoophilia page H&S section, as I've offered before, and to which you have never agreed, your recent comment about this notwithstanding. Skoppensboer 05:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Zoophilia&oldid=92371032#Continued_attempts_to_nullify_health_issues]
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=== NO peer-reviewed published research in this area ===
=== NO peer-reviewed published research in this area ===
