Changes

'''Flavius''': No it isn't. In so far as your editorial intentions conflict with NPOV policy then they are objectionable. flavius 03:54, 20 November 2005 (UTC)  

'''Flavius''': No it isn't. In so far as your editorial intentions conflict with NPOV policy then they are objectionable. flavius 03:54, 20 November 2005 (UTC)  

'''FT2''': Wikipedia has its own perspective. It's not post modern or relative. It's called NPOV and while you edit here, it's the water you and I both swim in. Read it carefully, again -- all of it. Especially the bits about writing for the enemy.  

'''FT2''': Wikipedia has its own perspective. It's not post modern or relative. It's called NPOV and while you edit here, it's the [[water]] you and I both swim in. Read it carefully, again -- all of it. Especially the bits about writing for the enemy.  

'''Flavius''': Last, did you do as I suggested long ago and look up how genuine pseudosciences such as Homeopathy are represented in Wikipedia? I think you should. Try to understand why they are written as they are. What of the Homeopathy article? How did you distinguish Homeopathy as a "genuine pseudoscience" and NLP -- by implication -- as non-genuine psuedoscience? Using what criteria? Drenth and Levelt both regard NLP as a pseudoscience. Don't you think Levelt -- the director of the Max Planck Institute of Psycholingusitics -- can distinguish genuine science from bunkum? flavius 03:54, 20 November 2005 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=28798929]

'''Flavius''': Last, did you do as I suggested long ago and look up how genuine pseudosciences such as Homeopathy are represented in Wikipedia? I think you should. Try to understand why they are written as they are. What of the Homeopathy article? How did you distinguish Homeopathy as a "genuine pseudoscience" and NLP -- by implication -- as non-genuine psuedoscience? Using what criteria? Drenth and Levelt both regard NLP as a pseudoscience. Don't you think Levelt -- the director of the Max Planck Institute of Psycholingusitics -- can distinguish genuine science from bunkum? flavius 03:54, 20 November 2005 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=28798929]

GregA. Even the original goals of NLP are unclear. The only thing that I can find that unites all schools of NLP is the theory (and it is a theory) that memory and experience is encoded neurologically in terms of the Representational Systems (VAKOG) and their submodalities. Many of the other facets of NLP (PRS, cognitive strategies, submodality based patterns eg. Swish, eye accessing cues, sensory predicates) flow out of this central theory. This central theory remains untouched (and unchallenged) in Grinder's New Code and in Bandler's "Technologies" (NHR, DHE, NS). It is also present in Dilt's and James' conception of NLP. Stipulating that "NLP" refers to that NLP that existed between 1972-1979 (as Comaze has done) is entirely arbitrary. NLP is a post-modernist pastiche. As per post-modernism NLP is what people say is NLP. There is no set of scope defining principles within NLP that allow one to differentiate NLP from non-NLP. NLPs scope and limits are undefined. This is consistent with its categorisation as a pseudoscience by numerous experts. NLP practice is divorced from the practice of empirical verification, its theorising is not substantiated with reference to empirical evidence, it doesn't exploit the body of knowledge of established disciplines and its theoretical basis is actively denied to exist by many proponents. All of the means of discipline demarcation won't work. Grinder's pontification in Whispering, in his corerspondence to Hall regarding NeuroSemantics, and on the Whispering forum regarding what is and isn't NLP is vacuous and predicated entirely on his authority. Grinder attempts by mere fiat to define NLP. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 01:11, 24 November 2005 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=29099077]

GregA. Even the original goals of NLP are unclear. The only thing that I can find that unites all schools of NLP is the theory (and it is a theory) that memory and experience is encoded neurologically in terms of the Representational Systems (VAKOG) and their submodalities. Many of the other facets of NLP (PRS, cognitive strategies, submodality based patterns eg. Swish, eye accessing cues, sensory predicates) flow out of this central theory. This central theory remains untouched (and unchallenged) in Grinder's New Code and in Bandler's "Technologies" (NHR, DHE, NS). It is also present in Dilt's and James' conception of NLP. Stipulating that "NLP" refers to that NLP that existed between 1972-1979 (as Comaze has done) is entirely arbitrary. NLP is a post-modernist pastiche. As per post-modernism NLP is what people say is NLP. There is no set of scope defining principles within NLP that allow one to differentiate NLP from non-NLP. NLPs scope and limits are undefined. This is consistent with its categorisation as a pseudoscience by numerous experts. NLP practice is divorced from the practice of empirical verification, its theorising is not substantiated with reference to empirical evidence, it doesn't exploit the body of knowledge of established disciplines and its theoretical basis is actively denied to exist by many proponents. All of the means of discipline demarcation won't work. Grinder's pontification in Whispering, in his corerspondence to Hall regarding NeuroSemantics, and on the Whispering forum regarding what is and isn't NLP is vacuous and predicated entirely on his authority. Grinder attempts by mere fiat to define NLP. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 01:11, 24 November 2005 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=29099077]

Comaze. I don't think its appropriate to describe NLP in terms of "epistemology". NLP is not a branch of epistemology (I've yet to find any reference to NLP in any epistemology text). Further, it does not have ''an'' epistomology. Grinder makes allusions to epistemological concepts but this is far from having an epistemology. NLP "modelling" cannot be justifiably characterised as an epistomology. It is a methodology with a set of epistemological assumptions and it is neither a unique method of inquiry or theory of knowledge. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 02:43, 25 November 2005 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=29179999]

Comaze. I don't think its appropriate to describe NLP in terms of "epistemology". NLP is not a branch of epistemology (I've yet to find any reference to NLP in any epistemology text). Further, it does not have ''an'' epistomology. Grinder makes allusions to epistemological concepts but this is far from having an epistemology. NLP "modelling" cannot be justifiably characterised as an epistomology. It is a methodology with a set of epistemological assumptions and it is neither a unique method of [[inquiry]] or theory of knowledge. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 02:43, 25 November 2005 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=29179999]

If Grinder had anything serious to say about epistemology his name would appear in epistemology texts. I can find no such reference. What exactly is Grinder's contribution to epistemology? From my reading of Whispering he appears to be appealing to Representationalism or Idealism (which one is unclear). [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 09:22, 26 November 2005 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=29274826]

If Grinder had anything serious to say about epistemology his name would appear in epistemology texts. I can find no such reference. What exactly is Grinder's contribution to epistemology? From my reading of Whispering he appears to be appealing to Representationalism or Idealism (which one is unclear). [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 09:22, 26 November 2005 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=29274826]

== Quarrelling with cranks ==

== Quarrelling with cranks ==

I don't comprehend the significance of your apparently random capitalisation. When you randomnly capitalise and mis-spell you come across as unhinged. I don't need to explain your claim anymore than I need to explain the existence of gnomes. The use of NLP in the US Army is a figment of your imagination or the imagination of one of your NLP mentors. The US Army conducted extensive research into a range of human performance technologies that may be of use to the army. NLP was included in the investigation. The researchers even interviewed Bandler. The US Army unequivocally rejected NLP on the grounds that there is no evidence that it works. Refer Druckman, D. & Swets, J. (1988). Enhancing Human Performance. Washington, DC: National Academy Press. and Swets, J. & Bjork R. (1990) Enhancing human performance. An evaluation of "new age" techniques considered by the U.S. Army. Psychological Science, 1,, 85-96. The apparent efficacy of NLP techniques on stage, in seminars and in some clinical situations is explained by a "psycho shaman effect" proposed by Tye (1994): "the psycho shaman effect is a collection of already-existing, well understood and accepted ideas. Specifically, it has three components: cognitive dissonance, placebo effect and therapist charisma". It is you that is exhibiting religious fervour. There is no evidence that NLP works yet you fervently announce your faith. "I argue that the proof is evident for anyone is open enough to making the observation", you say. Well this isn't an argument it's an assertion, it's a verbalisation of your emoting. What are we to do with it? If the "proof is evident" then why is it that NLP has failed most empirical testing it has been subjected to? Are you suggesting that Sharpley (1997), Swets & Bjork (1990), Dixon et al (1986), Baddeley (1989), Ellich et al (1985) and Melvin & Miller (1988) would have obtained confirmatory results if only they were more "open"? How so? One of the weaknesses of human reasoning is that it is vulnerable to a confirmation bias (Gilovich, 1993): you will look for and overvalue what confirms your beliefs and simultaneously ignore and undervalue anything that contradicts those beliefs. You can't prove that all swans are white simply by seeking white swans. You must instead seek black swans. Are you then looking only for the white swans of NLP? Confirmation is ''not'' the basis of knowledge acquisition, falsification is. If I find 100 smokers that are older than 80 years have I demonstrated that smoking will enable you to live beyond the average life expectancy? Your logic would suggest so. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 11:23, 15 December 2005 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=31456106]

I don't comprehend the significance of your apparently random capitalisation. When you randomnly capitalise and mis-spell you come across as unhinged. I don't need to explain your claim anymore than I need to explain the existence of gnomes. The use of NLP in the US Army is a figment of your imagination or the imagination of one of your NLP mentors. The US Army conducted extensive research into a range of human performance technologies that may be of use to the army. NLP was included in the investigation. The researchers even interviewed Bandler. The US Army unequivocally rejected NLP on the grounds that there is no evidence that it works. Refer Druckman, D. & Swets, J. (1988). Enhancing Human Performance. Washington, DC: National Academy Press. and Swets, J. & Bjork R. (1990) Enhancing human performance. An evaluation of "new age" techniques considered by the U.S. Army. Psychological Science, 1,, 85-96. The apparent efficacy of NLP techniques on stage, in seminars and in some clinical situations is explained by a "psycho shaman effect" proposed by Tye (1994): "the psycho shaman effect is a collection of already-existing, well understood and accepted ideas. Specifically, it has three components: cognitive dissonance, placebo effect and therapist charisma". It is you that is exhibiting religious fervour. There is no evidence that NLP works yet you fervently announce your faith. "I argue that the proof is evident for anyone is open enough to making the observation", you say. Well this isn't an argument it's an assertion, it's a verbalisation of your emoting. What are we to do with it? If the "proof is evident" then why is it that NLP has failed most empirical testing it has been subjected to? Are you suggesting that Sharpley (1997), Swets & Bjork (1990), Dixon et al (1986), Baddeley (1989), Ellich et al (1985) and Melvin & Miller (1988) would have obtained confirmatory results if only they were more "open"? How so? One of the weaknesses of human reasoning is that it is vulnerable to a confirmation bias (Gilovich, 1993): you will look for and overvalue what confirms your beliefs and simultaneously ignore and undervalue anything that contradicts those beliefs. You can't prove that all swans are white simply by seeking white swans. You must instead seek black swans. Are you then looking only for the white swans of NLP? Confirmation is ''not'' the basis of knowledge acquisition, falsification is. If I find 100 smokers that are older than 80 years have I demonstrated that smoking will enable you to live beyond the average life expectancy? Your [[logic]] would suggest so. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 11:23, 15 December 2005 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=31456106]

Akulkis/Aaron, you are ill-informed about science in general and psychology in particular. Freudian psychoanalysis is dead in both psychology and psychiatry in the English-speaking world and it has been so for many years. Since the 1960s clinical psychology has been dominated by the cognitive and behavioral therapies, neither of which are concerned with patient history and are typically delivered as several 45-minute sessions including progress tracking and follow-up. Academic and research psychology also has had little connection with Freudian psychoanalysis since the 1950s. Modern psychology is "Experimental Psychology" as advanced by Hans Eysenck and Cyril Burt. Freudian psychoanalysis has a stronger association with psychiatry and its heavy influence upon psychiatry continued until the late 1970s when advances were made in neurology and pharmacology. Since that time pscyhiatry has been moving towards a bilogical model of mental illness discarding its psychoanalytic roots. Most psychiatrists today have a biological orientation in the treatment of mental illness. Your concept of psychology and psychiatry is outdated by at least 30 years. NLP -- like all of the other fringe therapies of the era such Gestalt, Primal Scream, TA -- was a response to the "shrink culture" in the North America of the 1960s and 1970s. That is the context of Bandler's tired pun "Sickman Fraud" and his assuming of a german accented English when he talks about psychology and psychiatry in his early seminars. Unfortunately Bandler is stuck somewhere in the 1970s and even in his recent seminars he still talks as if Freudian psychoanalysis is the dominant model of mind within psychology and psychiatry. Uneducated people like you then pick up on this and repeat it as you are doing. Some of NLPs hypothesis are testable and those that have been tested have been found false and useless. That is the brutal truth you are vehemently opposing using anecdote. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 05:36, 16 December 2005 (UTC)  

Akulkis/Aaron, you are ill-informed about science in general and psychology in particular. Freudian psychoanalysis is dead in both psychology and psychiatry in the English-speaking world and it has been so for many years. Since the 1960s clinical psychology has been dominated by the cognitive and behavioral therapies, neither of which are concerned with patient history and are typically delivered as several 45-minute sessions including progress tracking and follow-up. Academic and research psychology also has had little connection with Freudian psychoanalysis since the 1950s. Modern psychology is "Experimental Psychology" as advanced by Hans Eysenck and Cyril Burt. Freudian psychoanalysis has a stronger association with psychiatry and its heavy influence upon psychiatry continued until the late 1970s when advances were made in neurology and pharmacology. Since that time pscyhiatry has been moving towards a bilogical model of mental illness discarding its psychoanalytic roots. Most psychiatrists today have a biological orientation in the treatment of mental illness. Your concept of psychology and psychiatry is outdated by at least 30 years. NLP -- like all of the other fringe therapies of the era such Gestalt, Primal Scream, TA -- was a response to the "shrink culture" in the North America of the 1960s and 1970s. That is the context of Bandler's tired pun "Sickman Fraud" and his assuming of a german accented English when he talks about psychology and psychiatry in his early seminars. Unfortunately Bandler is stuck somewhere in the 1970s and even in his recent seminars he still talks as if Freudian psychoanalysis is the dominant model of mind within psychology and psychiatry. Uneducated people like you then pick up on this and repeat it as you are doing. Some of NLPs hypothesis are testable and those that have been tested have been found false and useless. That is the brutal truth you are vehemently opposing using anecdote. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 05:36, 16 December 2005 (UTC)  

Comments by Flavius  

Comments by Flavius  

Thanks for the reference Comaze. I read the paper and it doesn't present anything new or conclusive. I don't think its inclusion will add balance as it is inconclusive. The only noteworthy conclusions were the following: "In outlining the development of NLP all articles, with the exception of Milne, stress the involvement of Bandler and Grinder. It is interesting to note the degree to which NLP is personalized in connection with these two individuals, with far less emphasis being accorded to either the origins of NLP or its subsequent development by others" (p.3); "[t]he extent to which NLP is personalized in connection with the originators Bandler and Grinder is apparent, and the absence of any substantial acknowledgement of the theoretical underpinnings comes through" (p.4); and "[o]ther features are striking about the research. Firstly the relative lack of it, compared to the almost cult following that NLP has achieved, mainly in the USA but latterly in the UK. There appears to have been an absence of research into NLP in the UK. There are however a great many articles and books written by those who use NLP and clearly believe it to be of great value in their work." (p.6) Dowlen identifies those traits of NLP that position it as pseudoscience, New Age and cult-like. These traits -- viz. personalisation of NLP in connection with B&G, failure to fully acknowledge derivative aspects of NLP theory and practice, incongruity between fanatical following and dearth of supportive evidence and empahsis on promotion over investigation -- are connected and are to be found in Scientology, Silva Mind Control, est and other psycho-cults. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 04:03, 7 January 2006 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=3420268]

Thanks for the reference Comaze. I read the paper and it doesn't present anything new or conclusive. I don't think its inclusion will add balance as it is inconclusive. The only noteworthy conclusions were the following: "In outlining the development of NLP all articles, with the exception of Milne, stress the involvement of Bandler and Grinder. It is interesting to note the degree to which NLP is personalized in connection with these two individuals, with far less emphasis being accorded to either the origins of NLP or its subsequent development by others" (p.3); "[t]he extent to which NLP is personalized in connection with the originators Bandler and Grinder is apparent, and the absence of any substantial acknowledgement of the theoretical underpinnings comes through" (p.4); and "[o]ther features are striking about the research. Firstly the relative lack of it, compared to the almost cult following that NLP has achieved, mainly in the [[Directory:United States|USA]] but latterly in the [[Directory:United Kingdom|UK]]. There appears to have been an absence of research into NLP in the UK. There are however a great many articles and books written by those who use NLP and clearly believe it to be of great value in their work." (p.6) Dowlen identifies those traits of NLP that position it as pseudoscience, New Age and cult-like. These traits -- viz. personalisation of NLP in connection with B&G, failure to fully acknowledge derivative aspects of NLP theory and practice, incongruity between fanatical following and dearth of supportive evidence and empahsis on promotion over investigation -- are connected and are to be found in Scientology, Silva Mind Control, est and other psycho-cults. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 04:03, 7 January 2006 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=3420268]

== Alleged ''Frogs'' Quote ==  

== Alleged ''Frogs'' Quote ==  

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:Flavius_vanillus '''FLAVIUS IS BANNED''']

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:Flavius_vanillus '''FLAVIUS IS BANNED''']