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User talk:Peter Z./Wikipedia & Political Agendas (view source)
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Is Wikipedia taking on a darker tone? Where are the ethical and moral issues involved in creating articles with old [[Communists|communist]] propaganda rhetoric and it's false information? Is this the Balkan section of Wikipedia becoming the next [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Soviet_Encyclopedia#Purpose Great Soviet Encyclopedia]? This part of Wikipedia is not encyclopaedic work, pure and simple.
[http://www.mywikibiz.com/Directory:The_Wikipedia_Point_of_View#History The Wikipedia Point of View-History]
*[[Wikipedia’s Communist Propaganda Articles!]]
*[[Nationalistic Editing on Wikipedia]]
*[[User talk:Ockham/Wikipedia & Political Agendas|Wikipedia & Political Agendas ]]
'''Cazzo''' (www.sciforums.com):
Registered Senior User (1,028 posts)
04-07-08, 05:47 PM
*When you bring up the topic of the Holocaust (of 6,000,000 jews) to neo-Nazis, they usually respond in 1 of 4 ways.
'''(1)''' They deny it ever happened.
'''(2)''' They say it was an "exaggeration" or a conspiracy theory.
'''(3)''' They try turning the tables or changing the subject.
'''(4)''' They say nothing at all.
The pure and simple fact is, they're evil people.
''But what about neo-Communists ? (and many other leftists)''
*When you bring up the topic of nearly '''100,000,000 civilians''' torchered and killed under '''Communist governments''' in the 20th century (not including deaths from wars, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bla...k_of_Communism), they react in the same way as the 4 catagories above.
*Another excuse leftists make for this attrocity is that they were not "true perfect" Communist societies; well you could say that Germany wasn't a "true fascist" State too.....
*Public schools barely touch (if even mention) the Communist mass killings, and Hollywood has put out how many films about this ''? 1 ? 2 ?''
And yet, the Communists killed several times more of their own civilians than the Nazis did!
Think it's '''fair''' to say leftists that fit those 4 catagories are as evil as neo-Nazis?
''by'' '''Cazzo''' (www.sciforums.com)
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== Research on Wikipedia’s Communist Propaganda Articles (former Yugoslavia) ==
== Research on Wikipedia’s Articles on the Former Yugoslavia ==
'''The Balkan World According to Wikipedia''':
'''The Balkan World According to Wikipedia''':
According to Wikipedia if a Commander happens to lose 100 000 POWs after WW2, it is not that important. Sixty years latter it was established that they were murdered and place in old mine shafts, caves and forests. The information is not to be mention in his biography as it is irrelevant.
According to [[Wikipedia]] if a Commander happens to lose an estimate of '''100 000 POWs''' after [[World War Two]] , it is not that important. Sixty years later it was established that they were murdered and place in old mine shafts, caves and forests. The information is not to be mention in his biography as it is ''irrelevant''.
On the 23rd of April in 1948, in a speech '''Harry Truman''' (the President of USA) stated:
On the 23rd of April in 1948, in a speech '''Harry Truman''' (the President of USA) stated:
''"I am told that Tito murdered more than 400 000 of the opposition in Yugoslavia before he got himself established there as a dictator"''
''"I am told that [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josip_Broz_Tito Tito] murdered more than 400 000 of the opposition in Yugoslavia before he got himself established there as a dictator"''
Reference from: Keeping Tito Afloat by Lorraine M. Lees <ref>[http://books.google.com/books?id=-Xkv7ym8hDYC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Keeping+Tito+Afloat:+The+United+States,+Yugoslavia,+and+the+Cold+War&client=safari&cd=1#v=snippet&q=%20tito%20trade%20papers%20four%20hundred%20thousand&f=false Keeping Tito Afloat] by Lorraine M. Lees</ref> & Woodrow Wilson and Harry Truman: Mission and Power in American Foreign Policy by Anne R. Pierce <ref>[http://books.google.com/books?id=cgPc0rsBxSAC&pg=PA219&dq=josip+broz+Tito++harry+truman&cd=5#v=onepage&q=josip%20broz%20Tito%20%20harry%20truman&f=false Woodrow Wilson and Harry Truman: Mission and Power in American Foreign Policy] by Anne R. Pierce</ref> ''(declassified documents from the 1990s)''
Reference from: Keeping Tito Afloat by Lorraine M. Lees <ref>[http://books.google.com/books?id=-Xkv7ym8hDYC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Keeping+Tito+Afloat:+The+United+States,+Yugoslavia,+and+the+Cold+War&client=safari&cd=1#v=snippet&q=%20tito%20trade%20papers%20four%20hundred%20thousand&f=false Keeping Tito Afloat] by Lorraine M. Lees.Keeping Tito Afloat draws upon newly declassified documents to show the critical role that Yugoslavia played in U.S. foreign policy with the communist world in the early years of the Cold War. After World War II, the United States considered Yugoslavia to be a loyal Soviet satellite, but Tito surprised the West in 1948 by breaking with Stalin. Seizing this opportunity, the Truman administration sought to "keep Tito afloat" by giving him military and economic aid.</ref> & Woodrow Wilson and Harry Truman: Mission and Power in American Foreign Policy by Anne R. Pierce <ref> American Foreign Policy by Anne R. Pierce</ref> ''([[USA|US]] declassified documents from the 1990s)''
* Christopher Bennett: Yugoslavia's Bloody Collapse: Causes, Course and Consequences ''"Tito remained a Stalinist to the end of his life. Tito"'' . <ref>[http://books.google.com/books?id=FeiKg3TuNl0C&pg=PA56&dq=titoism&client=safari&cd=9#v=onepage&q=titoism&f=false Yugoslavia's Bloody Collapse:] Causes, Course and Consequences by Christopher Bennett</ref> ([http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1207940.Yugoslavia_s_Bloody_Collapse_Causes_Course_and_Consequences book info])
Bennett, a British journalist who has the good fortune to speak both Slovenian and Croatian, a skill that has enabled him to draw heavily on literature of the region that would be unavailable to most American or British journalists.
*Vladimir Tismaneanu: The Crisis of Marxist Ideology in Eastern Europe: The Poverty of Utopia. ''"Tito was a season Stalinist"'' <ref>The Poverty of Utopia by Vladimir Tismaneanu</ref>
Bennett, a British journalist who has the good fortune to speak both Slovenian and Serbo-Croatian, a skill that has enabled him to draw heavily on literature of the region that would be unavailable to most American or British journalists.
*Vladimir Tismaneanu: The Crisis of Marxist Ideology in Eastern Europe: The Poverty of Utopia. ''"Tito was a season Stalinist"'' <ref>[http://books.google.com/books?id=mYUOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA99&dq=titoism&lr=&client=safari&cd=16#v=onepage&q=titoism&f=false The Crisis of Marxist Ideology in Eastern Europe:] The Poverty of Utopia by Vladimir Tismaneanu</ref>
* Vesna Pusic-Croatia at the Crossroads/Journal of Democracy - Volume 9, Number 1, January 1998, pp. 111-124 ''"Tito, a Croat and a Moscow-trained communist, ...... While his was a single-party, totalitarian regime, Tito was more a shrewd pragmatist than an ideologue. "'' <ref>[http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals/journal_of_democracy/v009/9.1pusic.html Croatia at the Crossroads] Journal of Democracy - Volume 9, Number 1, January 1998, pp. 111-124 by Vesna Pusic</ref>
* Vesna Pusic-Croatia at the Crossroads/Journal of Democracy - Volume 9, Number 1, January 1998, pp. 111-124 ''"Tito, a Croat and a Moscow-trained communist, ...... While his was a single-party, totalitarian regime, Tito was more a shrewd pragmatist than an ideologue. "'' <ref>[http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals/journal_of_democracy/v009/9.1pusic.html Croatia at the Crossroads] Journal of Democracy - Volume 9, Number 1, January 1998, pp. 111-124 by Vesna Pusic</ref>
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== Notes on References ==
== Notes on References ==
'''Contemporary views''' of Josip Broz that are clealy referenced:
'''Contemporary views''' of Josip Broz that are clealy referenced:
*[http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/ASEN/ConferencePapers/Ms.%20Tamara%20Pavasovic%20Trost%20-%20A%20Personality%20Cult%20Transformed%20The%20Evolution%20of%20Tito’s%20Image%20in%20the%20Former%20Yugoslavia%201974%20-%202009.pdf A Personality Cult Transformed:] The Evolution of Tito’s Image in the Former Yugoslavia 1974 – 2009/Tamara Pavasovic Trost Ph.D. Candidate Department of Sociology Harvard University [[USA]].
*Lorraine M. Lees is an associate professor of history at Old Dominion University in Virginia, USA.
*Lorraine M. Lees is an associate professor of history at Old Dominion University in Virginia, USA.
*Anne R. Pierce Ph. D. Political Science from the University of Chicago. Independent Scholar & Author/USA [http://annerpierce.com/home/index.php Author's Web Site]*
*Anne R. Pierce Ph. D. Political Science from the University of Chicago. Independent Scholar & Author/USA [http://annerpierce.com/home/index.php Author's Web Site]*
*'''BBC'''.UK/History Partisans: War in the Balkans 1941 - 1945 <ref>[http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/partisan_fighters_01.shtml#six BBC-History Partisans: War in the Balkans 1941-1945] </ref> By Dr Stephen A Hart
*'''BBC'''.UK/History Partisans: War in the Balkans 1941 - 1945 <ref>[http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/partisan_fighters_01.shtml#six BBC-History Partisans: War in the Balkans 1941-1945] </ref> By Dr Stephen A Hart
The article is written in the post ''Berlin Wall'' world. The Wiki article '''does not''' have the [[BBC]] as it's '''source'''.
The article is written in the post ''Berlin Wall'' world. The Wiki article '''does not''' have the [[BBC]] as its '''source'''.
This encyclopaedic articles clearly state the dark truth about Tito and his Army-[http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/partisan_fighters_01.shtml#six Partisans: War in the Balkans 1941-1945]
This encyclopaedic articles clearly state the dark truth about Tito and his Army-[http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/partisan_fighters_01.shtml#six Partisans: War in the Balkans 1941-1945]
*Dr Stephen A Hart is senior lecturer in war studies at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst. He is the author of The Road to Falaise: Operations "Totalize" & "Tractable" (Alan Sutton, 2004), "Montgomery " and "Colossal Cracks": The 21st Army Group in Northwest Europe, 1944-45 (Praeger, 2000).
*Dr Stephen A Hart is senior lecturer in war studies at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst. He is the author of The Road to Falaise: Operations "Totalize" & "Tractable" (Alan Sutton, 2004), "Montgomery " and "Colossal Cracks": The 21st Army Group in Northwest Europe, 1944-45 (Praeger, 2000).
*'''Encyclopaedia Britannica''' <ref>Encyclopædia Britannica: History & Society-Josip Broz Tito</ref> -The article is written post ''Berlin Wall'' but it's thin in terms of information, but does not hold back on economic realities: ''"At his death, the state treasury was '''empty.'''"''
*'''Encyclopaedia Britannica''' <ref>Encyclopædia Britannica: History & Society-Josip Broz Tito</ref> -The article is written post ''Berlin Wall'' but it's thin in terms of information, but does not hold back on economic realities: ''"At his death, the state treasury was '''empty.'''"''
The Wiki article has Encyclopaedia Britannica under its ''Notes'' section as it's source, it might be just cosmetic.
The Wiki article has Encyclopaedia Britannica under its ''Notes'' section as its source, it might be just cosmetic.
*'''BBC''' UK/History <ref>[http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwone/yugoslavia_03.shtml BBC UK/History] by Tim Judah</ref> by Tim Judah: ''"The economy was built on the shaky foundations of massive western loans."'' The article is also written in the post '''Berlin Wall''' world. The Wiki article '''does not''' have the [[BBC]] as it's '''source'''.
*'''BBC''' UK/History <ref>[http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwone/yugoslavia_03.shtml BBC UK/History] by Tim Judah</ref> by Tim Judah: ''"The economy was built on the shaky foundations of massive western loans."'' The article is also written in the post '''Berlin Wall''' world. The Wiki article '''does not''' have the [[BBC]] as it's '''source'''.
Other Genocide & Ethnic Cleansing:
Other Genocide & Ethnic Cleansing:
Genocide Carried out by the Tito Partisans/Danube Swabian History (former Yugoslavia) 1944-1948 [http://www.dvhh.org/history/genocide/index.htm]
Genocide carried out by the Tito Partisans/Danube Swabian History (former Yugoslavia) 1944-1948 [http://www.dvhh.org/history/genocide/index.htm]
*'''David W. Del Testa''' has a Ph.D. in History from the University of California at Davis.
*'''David W. Del Testa''' has a Ph.D. in History from the University of California at Davis.
*'''Ivo Goldstein''': <ref>Croatia A History-Mc Gill Queen’s University Press Publication by Ivo Goldstein. </ref>
*'''Ivo Goldstein''': <ref>Croatia A History-Mc Gill Queen’s University Press Publication by Ivo Goldstein. </ref>
Ivo Goldstein: 'Croatia A History'. Josip Broz and his fellow communist were committing economic management suicide. The Wiki article does not have Ivo Goldstein as its source.
:The articles clearly state:
:The articles clearly state:
Reports and proceedings of the 8 April European public hearing on “Crimes committed by totalitarian regimes”, organised by the Slovenian Presidency.
Reports and proceedings of the 8 April European public hearing on “Crimes committed by totalitarian regimes”, organised by the Slovenian Presidency.
'''Totalitarian machine''':
*Abuse of national sentiment to carry out racial and class revolutionary projects;
*Abuse of national sentiment to carry out racial and class revolutionary projects;
''A broad regional coalition of civil society associations from the countries of the former Yugoslavia is planning to strongly pressure the succession countries into forming regional commissions to establish the facts on war crimes and other severe violations of human rights.''
''A broad regional coalition of civil society associations from the countries of the former Yugoslavia is planning to strongly pressure the succession countries into forming regional commissions to establish the facts on war crimes and other severe violations of human rights.''
Natasa Kandic: Founder and Director, Humanitarian Law Center, Serbia and Montenegro.
Natasa Kandic: Founder and Director, Humanitarian Law Centre, Serbia and Montenegro.
*'''Serbia''' to Uncover Mass Graves-Belgrade 13 August 2009 [http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/21609/]
*'''Serbia''' to Uncover Mass Graves-Belgrade 13 August 2009 [http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/21609/]
(Mr Bozic is a Doctor from Zagreb -Croatia, Master of Medical Science and has done 20 years intensive research into ''partisan communists'' in the former Yugoslavia)
(Mr Bozic is a Doctor from Zagreb -Croatia, Master of Medical Science and has done 20 years intensive research into ''partisan communists'' in the former Yugoslavia)
* Croatia: Amnesty International & PART II - LUSTRATION IN CENTRAL AND EASTERN EUROPE
The Draft Law on Removing the Consequences of the Totalitarian Communist Regime, proposed by: the Croatian Party of Rights (1998 and 1999) aimed to systematically bar high-ranking party and state officials of the former regime from holding high-ranking offices in the new state, if in the past these persons had violated human rights and opposed the establishment of democracy.
The Law on the Security Services of the Republic of Croatia has been applied since 1 April 2002. The key intention of the law is the establishment of an appropriate model of supervision of their work (internal and external control). The law makes no distinction between the period from 1945 until 1990 and the period after 1990. Principally, the law allows for access to the documents and material. In the period 1990-1996 there were an estimated 2,200 dismissals and appointments of judges and state attorneys recorded in the Official Gazette.
In Croatia there have as yet been practically no major public debates on the past. <ref>[http://www.amnesty.nl/bibliotheek_vervolg/thema_berechting_part_2 Croatia & PART II - LUSTRATION IN CENTRAL AND EASTERN EUROPE, Amnesty International ]</ref>
== Mr Dizdar's ''Scientific Journal'' Study Notes==
== Mr Dizdar's ''Scientific Journal'' Study Notes==
*''Item B''- '''Z. Dizdar''': An Addition to the Research of the Problem of Bleiburg & Way of the Cross
*''Item B''- '''Z. Dizdar''': An Addition to the Research of the Problem of Bleiburg & Way of the Cross
According to the research of ''Z.Dizdar'', Partisan General Aleksandar Rankovic [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandar_Ranković] [http://files.osa.ceu.hu/holdings/300/8/3/text/86-3-147.shtml] was only answerable to Tito (page 128). Aleksandar Rankovic play a major role in these executions and the only person that could to give Rankovic such an order, was Tito. The report also states that there were huge Camps housing POWs, amongst them were women and children. On page 183 it states that there were '''24 000 children''' in the camps.
According to the research of ''Z.Dizdar'', Partisan General [http://files.osa.ceu.hu/holdings/300/8/3/text/86-3-147.shtml Aleksandar Rankovic] was only answerable to Tito (page 128). Aleksandar Rankovic play a major role in these executions and the only person that could to give Rankovic such an order, was Tito. The report also states that there were huge Camps housing POWs, amongst them were women and children. On page 182 (66) it states that there were '''24 422 children''' in the camps.<ref>[http://74.125.155.132/scholar?q=cache:Xmg34OucoOoJ:scholar.google.com/++RESEARCH+OF+THE+PROBLEM+OF+BLEIBURG+AND+WAY+OF+THE+CROSS+++ZDRAVKO+DIZDAR+djeca+logor&hl=en&as_sdt=2000 Hrcak Portal of Scientific Journals of Croatia by Mr Dizdar's Scientific Journal - An Addition to the Research of the Problem of Bleiburg & Way of the Cross.] This paper dedicated to the 60th anniversary of these tragic events represents a small step towards the elaboration of known data and brings a list of yet unknown and unpublished original documents, mostly belonging to the Yugoslavian Military and Political Government 1945-1947.</ref>
*Treba kazati kako su postojali još posebni logoru za folsdojčere, kojisu još 21. XI. 1944. od Predsjedništva AVNOJ-a proglašeni kolektivnimkrivcima i neprijateljima naroda, na osnovi cega je od nove komunistickevlasti izvršena konfisciranja njihove imovine te zapoceo njihov progon,uhicivanja i upucivanja u logore.130 Tako je 18. I. 1946. u jugoslavenskimlogorima bilo 117.485 folksdojcera (58.821 žena, 34.214 muškaraca i24.422 djece)
(Opširnije o tome vidi/ for more details: V. GEIGER, 200)
== Communist Party of Yugoslavia, Tito & the Yugoslav Economy ==
''Self-management as system was only slightly more efficient than the Soviet model. It was bureaucratised and cumbersome and could not compete with Western economies. '''People could obtain so much free''' or '''for less than the market price''' (e.g. apartments) that they could be obtain without work. All this made the settling of accounts in the 1980s and in the post-socialist age more difficult''
''In Tito’s system no interest or ideas could be expressed in a truly democratic way. This did most harm where feelings of ethnic identity were concerned because their suppression led to growth of extreme nationalism. Furthermore, the economic failure of Tito’s system, most clearly expressed in the protracted crisis of the 1980s, left people who even if they were not poor, were disillusioned and open to manipulation by demagogues. Finally Tito’s practical solutions ensured that he would retain unlimited power during his life time, but foreshadowed the problems would come after his death.''
Professor Ivo Goldstein’s[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivo_Goldstein] work ''above'' proves that Josip Broz, put simply, was a bad economist and the Communists Party members were bad economists too. According to these and other references [http://books.google.com/books?id=pSxJdE4MYo4C&pg=PA154&lpg=PA154&dq=Ivo+Goldstein+josip+broz+tito&source=bl&ots=LhBvNMaOlk&sig=xzaZOyX2NizYEnvG6LFgv5_sh2c&hl=en&ei=DrDmSsKeNI-PkQXukOTBBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAsQ6AEwAA#v=snippet&q=liberation%20of%20belgrade%20october%201944&f=false], this was one of the reasons that contributed to the break-up of Yugoslavia. As this was such a historical event, this information should be in the Wikipedia article in order to make it more encyclopaedic.
== Deletion On Wiki Talk Page Josip Broz Tito (fun and games) ==
*[[Directory:Josip Broz Tito and Wikipedia|Josip Broz Tito and Wikipedia]]
Dear reader just recently my thoughts on talkpage Tito have been deleted and it seems it’s going to stay that way. Since I am faced with the fact that my opinions are being suppressed and then eventually will be blocked, I’ve decided to put this out there so these events may be known to the wider wiki community.
The article in question is Josip Broz Tito (the former Dictator of Yugoslavia- East Europe). He was commander of the partisan forces during world war 2 and later a Stalinistic style dictator of the former Yugoslavia. The Wikipedic article is biased and does not mention crimes (Bleiburg massacre & foibe massacres)) against humanity that were committed under his leadership.
I registered that this should be part of the article and as a result I have been deleted. One writer was very abusive and deleted my writings on talk back pages. His name is DIREKTOR. He was supported by Ruhrfisch ><>°° I would like to quote some of the Direktor’s statements regarding this article just to inform you of what we are dealing with here.
{{Cquote|Find yourself another one of your crappy "forums" to talk about your presumptions. Just forget about this, Luigi/Brunodam, you're not annoying anyone - you're just turning out amusing. I think I'll file a checkuser in an hour or so, you'd better believe it when I say I'll delete everything you wrote if you're a sock. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 15:49, 5 August 2009 (UTC)}}
''Self -management as system was only slightly more efficient than the Soviet model. It was bureaucratised and cumbersome and could not compete with Western economies. '''People could obtain so much free''' or '''for less than the market price''' (e.g. apartments) that they could be obtain without work. All this made the settling of accounts in the 1980s and in the post-socialist age more difficult''
These events are not some conspiracy. They have been part of the western media since the break up of the former Yugoslavia. They have been presented as TV documentaries, on talk back shows and in general writings in England, other parts of Europe and USA, Australia and other parts of the free world. They are backed by eye witness accounts by people who were actually caught up in these events.
The Croatian government is addressing these issues with investigations and financial reimbursement is being given to the victims. These are facts and should be present in the article and not deleted when someone points them out. These actions mirror the attitude of the regime that I am trying to expose.
The Josip Broz Tito article is a dangerous biased piece of writing. It would fit perfectly in any article of the old the Yugoslavia or the old Soviet Union propaganda machine (Cult of personality). Why is it there? The only answer it seems is that Wikipedia has some writers of extreme views (Stalin Style) who don’t tolerate being questioned.
Referenced from www.britannica.com: "The irony of Tito’s remarkable life is that he created the conditions for the eventual destruction of his lifelong effort. Instead of allowing the process of democratisation to establish its own limits, he constantly upset the work of reformers while failing to satisfy their adversaries. He created a federal state, yet he constantly fretted over the pitfalls of decentralization."
Tito was the commander of the Partisans and there are far too many examples of mass murders & mass arrests for it to be ignored (& there are many more). Any good encyclopedic article should make reference to them. It would be like Stalin without his rule of terror being documented. This just dosen't make sense in the modern world. What we have here is a clear avoidance of these issues (in the article), thus making it biased.
{{Cquote|Direktor '''stated''': they have absolutely nothing to do with Josip Broz Tito}} Well then, what ''' did Tito do'''? Did he let these horrible events just happen? Did he have a '''moral conscience''' (the war did end)? Was he '''incompetent?''' Was he the great leader that the Yugoslav Communist state propaganda machine portrayed him to be? Even the Wiki article states this. I have shown here credible references and sources to prove my argument, please take them into account.
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==External links==
== References ==
<references/>