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MyWikiBiz, Author Your Legacy — Tuesday April 30, 2024
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Revision as of 13:09, 21 December 2014
, 13:09, 21 December 2014→Whatever happened from this?
See '''[[Talk:Criticism of crowdsourcing/Archive 1|Archive 1]]''' for October 8-11, 2008 content.
<p>See '''[[Talk:Criticism of crowdsourcing/Archive 1|Archive 1]]''' for October 8-11, 2008 content.</p>
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==Now Is The Wiki Of Our Discontent==
==Now Is The Wiki Of Our Discontent==
===The 1st Part of the Discontention===
JA: There is a fundamental social wrong that hides at the core of Wikipedia, a wrongness that is complicit with the worst of its content, but far more its cause than its effect. We need to get at that underlying wrongness if we are going to comprehend, much less remediate, the problematic phenomena that we find in the Wikipedia domain. [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 09:12, 12 October 2008 (PDT)
JA: There is a fundamental social wrong that hides at the core of Wikipedia, a wrongness that is complicit with the worst of its content, but far more its cause than its effect. We need to get at that underlying wrongness if we are going to comprehend, much less remediate, the problematic phenomena that we find in the Wikipedia domain. [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 09:12, 12 October 2008 (PDT)
BK: Jon, I think you are conflating a dramatic ''production'' with a drama ''engine''. Think of a drama engine as the analog of a physics engine in a pinball game. Jimbo gave the world a free-wheeling ''drama engine'' — a venue where arbitrary actors can don costumes and synthetic [http://knol.google.com/k/barry-kort/cognition-affect-and-learning/3iyoslgwsp412/2#H7-Multi-Layer-Storybook-Character-Model ''personas''] and engage in improvisational street theater with each other. The result is a post-modern, pre-apocalyptic [http://underground.musenet.org:8080/utnebury/banshee.html theater of the absurd]. —[[User:Moulton|Moulton]] 14:14, 13 October 2008 (PDT)
BK: Jon, I think you are conflating a dramatic ''production'' with a drama ''engine''. Think of a drama engine as the analog of a physics engine in a pinball game. Jimbo gave the world a free-wheeling ''drama engine'' — a venue where arbitrary actors can don costumes and synthetic [http://knol.google.com/k/barry-kort/cognition-affect-and-learning/3iyoslgwsp412/2#H7-Multi-Layer-Storybook-Character-Model ''personas''] and engage in improvisational street theater with each other. The result is a post-modern, pre-apocalyptic [http://underground.musenet.org:8080/utnebury/banshee.html theater of the absurd]. —[[User:Moulton|Moulton]] 14:14, 13 October 2008 (PDT)
JA: Thanks for finally admitting that you are NOT using the word "drama" in the ordinary sense of the word but more in line with the way that Wikipediots abuse the term. "Drama Engine" is a neologism that you just made up, so of course the notion of a drama engine cannot figure in the ordinary meaning of the word "drama". [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 19:06, 13 October 2008 (PDT)
I would like to encourage everyone using MyWikiBiz for various discussions to please adhere to a policy of "don't derail pages". You are welcome to have conversations about the origins and ownership of Wikipedia Review, as you are welcome to have conversations about the identity of various cross-dressing British officials. Just have these conversations on their own pages.
<blockquote>
<p>Dear Abbie,</p>
<p>I tried shouting "theatre" in a crowded fire but it did not improve ''The Review'' — and then the Firemen dashed on the scene and
I discovered that my Drama Engine was no match for their Fire Engine.</p>
<p>Just call me,</p>
<p>All Wet @ Fahrenheit 451</p>
</blockquote>
BK: Jon, I did not coin the term "drama engine" as you can discover by reading about [http://www.google.com/search?q=first+generation+drama+engine first generation drama engines], lame though they may be for the purposes that game designers have in mind. Jimbo's Unintended Drama Engine (JUDE) operates at what I imagine would correspond to a third generation drama engine in the game world. —[[User:Moulton|Moulton]] 21:59, 13 October 2008 (PDT)
JA: I apologize for accusing you of Originality, but your esoteric gamer-tech geek-world reference, however amusing, only serves to prove my point that the new-fangled notion of a "drama engine" forms no part of what enters the mind of the average person in the street when he or she hears the word "drama".
JA: But let us put the definition of drama aside for now. You are trying to reduce the bardic and dramatic arts to a kind of Accidental Stage Setting (ASS). And that is nothing short of absurd. It is true that people can learn from a climactic absurdity, but what they must learn is the absurdity of the collective premiss. [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 02:46, 14 October 2008 (PDT)
BK: I don't think we are all that far apart, Jon. I've been thinking about the use of dramaturgy in education for many years now, and I've been following the snail's pace at which the game culture has incorporated dramaturgy into the design of games. What I noticed about WMF sites is that, while Jimbo did not intentionally set out to craft a post-modern theater of the absurd, that's what WP and sister sites have evolved to become. A secondary question is what (if anything) the participants in Jimbo's Masquerade Ball are learning through their participation in that happenstantial psychodrama stage. [[User:Moulton|Moulton]] 10:35, 14 October 2008 (PDT)
JA: If all you mean by "drama" is something like "the affective element in education and inquiry", then that has been a factor in my studies for as long as I can remember, but I think it would be a whole lot clearer just to say the latter. I have participated in the mystiques of enough psychodrama and street theater to know the agonies, the thrills, and the uses thereof, but I do not call that Drama in a literal literary sense.
JA: It is possible to learn from almost any experience that we undergo — adverse, artful, or otherwise — but we have to be capable of reflecting on the experience to the point where we can extract the lesson, and that is a step beyond mere mystified participation in absurdity. [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 11:18, 14 October 2008 (PDT)
BK: What I've been thinking about is the artful construction of a custom-crafted drama optimally designed to [http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/User:Moulton/Caprice midwife an epiphany] of a particular individual at a particular juncture in their lifelong learning journey. I am thinking of stories like Peter Falk as the grandfather reading the story of the ''Princess Bride'' to his grandson, or ''Arabian Nights'' or ''Aesop's Fables'' or the Parables of Jesus or [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9U_d7-V8s4 this ditty by Bing Crosby]. —[[User:Moulton|Moulton]] 12:56, 14 October 2008 (PDT)
JA: I'm not sure I understand all this "Hallo, Jude!" stuff you keep going on about, but it begins to dawn on me that it's you, you, my friend, who are in the grip of some Will To Drama that you'd fain e-body in, oh, let's say, Barry's Intense Drama Engine (BIDE), and that you project this project of yours on your favorite local authoritarian, Jimbo Wales, who knows it not. [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 06:08, 15 October 2008 (PDT)
===The 2nd Part of the Discontention===
JA: By way of marshaling our critical resources on behalf of the end in view, let me recall the charge that I sounded at the top of this topic, after which I will sort through the intervening discussion in a game try at racking up the points of agreement and disagreement.
<blockquote>
JA: There is a fundamental social wrong that hides at the core of Wikipedia, a wrongness that is complicit with the worst of its content, but far more its cause than its effect. We need to get at that underlying wrongness if we are going to comprehend, much less remediate, the problematic phenomena that we find in the Wikipedia domain. [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 09:12, 12 October 2008 (PDT)
</blockquote>
====Points of Consensus====
* Although we continue to have difficulty identifying it, or even thinking of an apt name for it, many of us seem to agree that there is a fundamental social wrong that hides at the core of Wikipedia's Social-Technical Architecture (STA). Unless we can diagnose this bug with more exactness, attempts to "fix Wikipedia", whether in-place or in a new place, are most likely going to continue being futile. [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 05:36, 14 October 2008 (PDT)
* We seem to agree that the social sanctions known as "blocking" and "banning", as implemented in the corresponding social powers and technical utilities, or something about the distribution of those powers and utilities, are telling indicators of the fundamental social wrong in Wikipedia. [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 05:52, 14 October 2008 (PDT)
====Points of Dissensus====
* Hard to pin down, but something about the character of drama and the role of drama, however cast, in the Wikipedia System. [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 06:20, 14 October 2008 (PDT)
====Points for Expansion====
JA: I am out of time for pursuing this right now, but one of the points that we need to probe a little further has to do with the ''function'' of blocking and banning within the cult(ure) in question. Words like ''alienation'', ''excommunication'', ''exile'', ''scapegoating'', and ''shunning'' have been used in the past. What is really going on is not any form of physical transportation, but a filtering out of messages from identifiable sources, a form of "killing the message", if not exactly the messenger. [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 07:50, 14 October 2008 (PDT)
JA: There really are such things as noise, spam, and vandalism, and so there are legitimate reasons for filtering and ignoring certain classes of messages. When the functions of filtering and repression become dysfunctional for any error-controlled system, however, is when valid feedback about the system and its environment is habitually being ignored. [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 07:50, 14 October 2008 (PDT)
BK: See also [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_Attainder Bill of Attainder], [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immurement#In_literature Immurement], and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safeword Safeword]. —[[User:Moulton|Moulton]] 13:36, 14 October 2008 (PDT)
==Made Glorious By This Sum Resummed A Fork==
JA: All in the fullness of time … [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 09:14, 14 October 2008 (PDT)
===Dysfunctional Inquiry Programs (DIP's) : Slip Slidin' Away===
JA: The phenomenon that I wish to address under this head is one that I noticed many years ago, one that I observed arising especially acutely in the W(P+R) context, and one that I tried to tackle under numerous heads at ''The Wikipedia Review'', but like every other topic that risks diversion from the WR Soap Opera In Regress Everlasting (WR:SOIRE), all of those inquiries fell like lead balloons on leaden ears.
JA: ''Vide'' [http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=17951 Dysfunctional Inquiry Programs (DIP's) : Slip Slidin' Away].
I'm not certain if this is on-topic or not, but I've been [http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=20679&view=findpost&p=135577 blocked from Wikipedia Review] for revealing that long-time poster [http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showuser=1066 "Heat"] is in fact the dishonest and corrupt Wikipedia adminstrator/sockpuppeteer [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Formeruser-82 "Homeontherange"], a.k.a. [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=%22andy+lehrer%22+socialist&spell=1 Andy Lehrer, Canadian socialist activist:] Wikipedia Review welcomed and protects this inveterate liar solely because he opposes SlimVirgin and Jayjg (diffs forthcoming).
JA: Maybe it was something I said? [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 14:40, 15 October 2008 (PDT)
BK: In my experience, the inquiry process fails when the would-be inquirer departs from rigorous skeptical inquiry by failing to examine all the evidence with a critical eye and by failing to reason in a coherent and scientific manner to valid conclusions and insights. —[[User:Moulton|Moulton]] 15:44, 15 October 2008 (PDT)
<blockquote>
<p>You know the nearer your destination</p>
<p>The more you're slip slidin' away</p>
<p>— Paul Simon
</blockquote>
JA: The particular phenomenon that I'm talking about here occurs when all the right evidence and all the right reasoning lead a person right up to the door of what, by rights, would be the inescapable conclusion, and yet … and yet … the fear of losing a cherished illusion keeps that person from walking through that door. [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 19:16, 15 October 2008 (PDT)
BK: Do you mean the inescapable conclusion that there is no hope for ''Homo Schleppians'' or Western Civilization because we lack the critical mass to evolve from a political culture to a scientific one? —[[User:Moulton|Moulton]] 19:59, 15 October 2008 (PDT)
JA: No<font size=7>,</font> I mean that there's very little hope for ''Some People'' until they ¡¡¡ Wake Da Φυκ ↑ !!! [[User:Jon Awbrey|Jon Awbrey]] 03:54, 16 October 2008 (PDT)
BK: Oh. Well [http://www.google.com/search?q=Gurdjieff+Ouspensky Gurdjieff and Ouspensky] pretty much established that most people are sleepwalking their way through life. [[User:Moulton|Moulton]] 07:51, 16 October 2008 (PDT)
==Future use of this page==
I would like to encourage everyone using MyWikiBiz for various discussions to please adhere to a policy of "don't derail pages". You are welcome to have conversations about the origins and ownership of Wikipedia Review, as you are welcome to have conversations about the identity of various cross-dressing British officials. Just have these conversations on their own pages.
As for the future of the "new forum" that we've been discussing, I would like to draw everyone's attention to my current mindset, as [[Criticism_of_crowdsourcing#Announcement|expressed here]]. Thanks, everyone! -- [[User:MyWikiBiz|MyWikiBiz]] 16:22, 12 October 2008 (PDT)
==Wikipedia - why it needs a warning label==
==Wikipedia - why it needs a warning label==
This is a work in progress, and I will try to improve it later, but you can read it if you like. http://catonine.virtue.nu/thoughts/wikipedia.html I tried to make it like Lir's one, but I hope on more important topics, with a more relevant worldview. [[User:Blissyu2|Blissyu2]] 02:26, 13 October 2008 (PDT)
This is a work in progress, and I will try to improve it later, but you can read it if you like. http://catonine.virtue.nu/thoughts/wikipedia.html I tried to make it like Lir's one, but I hope on more important topics, with a more relevant worldview. [[User:Blissyu2|Blissyu2]] 02:26, 13 October 2008 (PDT)
: Again, the way to do this is to create an article [[Port Arthur Massacre (Wikipedia)]] in which you can reference these claims and have other people investigate them. This (if your claims are correct) would form part of a series of articles here which are ''about'' the Wikipedia articles, where there is evidence of bias or corruption in those articles. [[User:Ockham|Ockham]] 04:53, 13 October 2008 (PDT)
: Again, the way to do this is to create an article [[Port Arthur Massacre (Wikipedia)]] in which you can reference these claims and have other people investigate them. This (if your claims are correct) would form part of a series of articles here which are ''about'' the Wikipedia articles, where there is evidence of bias or corruption in those articles. [[User:Ockham|Ockham]] 04:53, 13 October 2008 (PDT)
::I have done that already [http://encyc.org/wiki/Port_Arthur_massacre_truth_changing] (it does probably need shortening however). Of course, that is not the sole aspect of my web page, and only represents one example of one of the major problems. There is no doubt in my mind that Wikipedia's article on that topic is, basically, a deliberately false article, as it does not, as an article as a whole, agree with either the recognised truth of the issue nor what the majority of people say, and deliberately false statements have been added to the article, primarily by Thebainer, with enormous control of the article, initially by Robert Merkel but later taken over by Thebainer. I was going to put all of that in a nice readable format in that section on my web site criticism. Again, however, that is just one aspect of what is wrong with Wikipedia, and just one example of truth changing. SlimVirgin's truth changing of the Lockerbie bombing article on Wikipedia is just as notable. Unfortunately, I am not an expert on the Lockerbie bombing so can't get into specifics of what she did, only that it is obvious that she did change truth. [[User:Blissyu2|Blissyu2]] 04:29, 14 October 2008 (PDT)
== Thank you ==
== Thank you ==
I want to '''thank this page''' for underscoring in my mind the importance of the new criticism project to be a closed group of content generators, and for it not to begin in wiki format. -- [[User:MyWikiBiz|MyWikiBiz]] 08:50, 13 October 2008 (PDT)
I want to '''thank this page''' for underscoring in my mind the importance of the new criticism project to be a closed group of content generators, and for it not to begin in wiki format. -- [[User:MyWikiBiz|MyWikiBiz]] 08:50, 13 October 2008 (PDT)
::MY suggestion for the format, your criticism should be in three parts..
First part: A page, where any one may submit criticism, in public, in which all discuss it in a free for all, no holds bar discussion. No rules less one... No attack on each other just their augment.
Second part: After a time, a committee, would review the article and decide to add/delete some or all of said article to to a protected part where it will stand.
Third part, I would have a wide open form, "boogie check" no rules less Defamation, Liable. All comers welcome, a thunderdrome of ideas regarding wikipeida so all have say.. from the crazy loon to the highest Ivory tower pigeon.[[User:Joehazelton|Joehazelton]] 15:55, 13 October 2008 (PDT)
== Whatever happened from this? ==
Maybe I missed it, but 6 years later and I don't see a website created. If you did make one, you certainly didn't tell me, nor did you write it here. I feel a bit upset at not being invited if you did create it. :( [[User:Blissyu2|Blissyu2]] ([[User talk:Blissyu2|talk]]) 13:06, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
:P.S. I am not completely sure why, but the website I was using for about 10 years mysteriously disappeared. Thankfully it was archived happily, so here is my Criticism of Wikipedia article: https://web.archive.org/web/20130310011711/http://catonine.virtue.nu/thoughts/wikipedia.html [[User:Blissyu2|Blissyu2]] ([[User talk:Blissyu2|talk]]) 13:09, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
