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'''Flavius Vanillus''' edited from on Wikipedia from 7 November 2005 - 2 April 2006 [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&limit=500&target=Flavius+vanillus] .  His contributions are interesting and important because they show clear signs of scientific education, a clear grasp of the thinking behind the scientific method and its connection with the Wikipedia principles concerning [[Directory:The Wikipedia Point of View/Neutral Point of View | Neutral Point of View]].  Nonetheless he was banned forever on 2 April 2006.
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'''Flavius Vanillus''' edited from on Wikipedia from 7 November 2005 - 2 April 2006 [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&limit=500&target=Flavius+vanillus] .  His contributions are interesting and important because they show clear signs of scientific education, a clear grasp of the thinking behind the scientific method and its connection with the Wikipedia principles concerning [[Directory:The Wikipedia Point of View/Neutral Point of View | Neutral Point of View]].  Nonetheless he was banned from Wikipedia on 2 April 2006.
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What follows is an introduction summarising the dispute that led to Flavius being banned, followed by a transcript of ''most'' but not all of his contributions.  The transcript is long, but is worth reading for the wit and style, and scientific accuracy with which Flavius makes his case.  It is also instructive as to why a qualified scientist was banned from Wikipedia, and why those with a commercial interest in a pseudoscientific product ([[Neurolinguistic programming]]) continued to edit and expand the article unhindered, in a way that now takes it far from any scientific point of view.
    
==Introduction==
 
==Introduction==
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=== Why NLP is pseudoscience ===
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=== Neurolinguistic Programming ===
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'''Neurolinguistic Programming''' (NLP) began as an alternative school of psychotherapy in California, USA, during the mid-seventies. It was initiated by John Grinder, a linguistic professor, Richard Bandler a BA in Philosophy and Psychology, at the University of California at Santa Cruz (UCSC). It is now marketed as a powerful method or technique of personal development offering unlimited potential and rapid improvement in the way a person thinks, behaves or feels [http://www.nlp-now.co.uk/nlp-what.htm].  It is supposed to work by copying or "modelling" the behaviour and thinking styles of particularly effective and successful people in business, coaching, education, sales, therapy, sport, and personal development.
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Detractors argue that it is a hotch–potch of theories, some of which are based on legitimate science, but which have no connection with NLP, others of which are completely unscientific, including hypnosis, psychotherapy and unconscious thinking, mixed up into a messy soup of new age thinking.  For example, the psycholinguist Levelt (1995) passed devastating judgment on NLP: It is not informed about the literature, it starts from insights that have been rendered out of date long ago, its key concepts are not apprehended or are a mere fabrication, or are conclusions are based upon wrong presumptions. NLP theory and practice have nothing to do with neuroscientific insights, nor with linguistics, nor with informatics and theory of programming. NLP is not interested in the question as to how neurological processes take place, neither in serious research.
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(Professor WJM Levelt is an eminent scholar and psycholinguist. He is the director of the Max Planck Institute for Psycholinguistics. Levelt's publications number in the hundreds  and he is cited thousands of times according to Google scholar).
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=== Promotion of NLP in Wikipedia ===
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Flavius lost his battle against some powerful forces within the Wikipedia administration.  First, an administrator called [[FT2 (Wikipedia user) | FT2]], who enjoys a large following in Wikipedia, and is now leader of the all-powerful 'Arbitration Committee'.  FT2 wrote all of the original NLP articles on Wikipedia, and has defended them against many scientific opponents and sceptics, succeeding in getting many of the blocked or banned.  FT2 is also trained in NLP (having trained for what is called the "Master Practitioner" under Robert Dilts and Judith Delozier in 1998, in Stanta Cruz, where NLP all began [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=26610872&oldid=26610429]). FT2 was assisted by another administrator, 'Woohookitty',  who worked closely with him on the case (and who administered the final ban).
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Flavius' main editorial opponent was a user called '''Comaze''', real name Scott Coleman, who runs an NLP company called Comaze.com in Australia, and who also has some connection with a company called Inspiritive, run by Chris and Jules Collingwood [http://www.inspiritive.com.au/new_code_nlp.htm], who are invoked by Coleman at one point, saying he was 'authorised' to speak for them.
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The argument is heated and bitter.  Comaze says "In this discussion my interest in NLP is purely from a Neutral Point of View". Flavius replies, "No, it definitely isn't NPOV. You are a promoter and advocate and you have a zeal that is almost religious. NLP is basically a "snake oil" business. The advocacy that you are engaged in is especially unethical because NLP isn't free, it costs big bucks. Not only is their insuffcient evidence of the efficacy of NLP there is substantial evidence that it doesn't work. It is unethical to charge people AU$100.00/hour for treatment that doesn't work or AU$5000.00 for a melange of ritual, pop-psychology, brain myths, B-grade philosophy and anecdotes".
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=== NLP and pseudoscience ===
    
Flavius offers some very helpful arguments as to why NLP is a pseudoscience.  He says that the notions of 'falsifiability' and 'disconfirmation' are central to the program of science.  But NLP makes many unfalsifiable claims, and it has little if any predictive power. NLP practice is divorced from the practice of empirical verification, its theorising is not substantiated with reference to empirical evidence, it doesn't exploit the body of knowledge of established disciplines and its theoretical basis is actively denied to exist by many proponents.  
 
Flavius offers some very helpful arguments as to why NLP is a pseudoscience.  He says that the notions of 'falsifiability' and 'disconfirmation' are central to the program of science.  But NLP makes many unfalsifiable claims, and it has little if any predictive power. NLP practice is divorced from the practice of empirical verification, its theorising is not substantiated with reference to empirical evidence, it doesn't exploit the body of knowledge of established disciplines and its theoretical basis is actively denied to exist by many proponents.  
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Replying to the argument that NLP is more like mysticism or religion, he argues that NLP makes claims and posits explanations regarding learning, memory, thinking, mental illness, motivation, neurology and physiology, and so its ''domain'' is the same as that of science. NLP is offering competing theories and therapies to established scientific disciplines. By contrast, the doctrine of the Holy Trinity is exclusively concerned with theology, it is entirely a religious matter and is hence entirely outside of the scope of scientific inquiry. During the 14th century when the Roman Church did stray outside its proper domain of discourse and opine on matters of astronomy and medicine -- subjects of science -- it was plainly in error. The Roman Catholic Church was not offering a legitimate Christian perspective on astronomy or medicine. What the NLP industry is doing is akin to the medieval Christian Church competing with science on matters outside of its authority.
 
Replying to the argument that NLP is more like mysticism or religion, he argues that NLP makes claims and posits explanations regarding learning, memory, thinking, mental illness, motivation, neurology and physiology, and so its ''domain'' is the same as that of science. NLP is offering competing theories and therapies to established scientific disciplines. By contrast, the doctrine of the Holy Trinity is exclusively concerned with theology, it is entirely a religious matter and is hence entirely outside of the scope of scientific inquiry. During the 14th century when the Roman Church did stray outside its proper domain of discourse and opine on matters of astronomy and medicine -- subjects of science -- it was plainly in error. The Roman Catholic Church was not offering a legitimate Christian perspective on astronomy or medicine. What the NLP industry is doing is akin to the medieval Christian Church competing with science on matters outside of its authority.
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=== Abuse of NPOV ===
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A crucial part of the dispute (misunderstanding of which clearly lead to Flavius being banned) is whether the NPOV policy requires that each side of the dispute has an equal say in the article.  Flavius has a clear understanding of what this policy is.  It does not require, for example, that all sides of a dispute get equally represented by Wikipedia - the policy [[WP:WEIGHT]] has much to say on this.  But Flavius is bullied by a succession of editors.  For example, FT2 argues that 'An encyclopedia is a collation of multiple perspectives and views'.  Flavius replies that if so, equal coverage should be given to the view that the Earth is flat.  "That is not to say that there are not people that contend that the Earth is flat ... or that the Earth is hollow ... or that the earth was colonised by space aliens. If what you were contending were true we would find the Wikipedia Earth article giving coverage to not only every nutty idea about the earth but equal coverage to every nutty idea and the scientific view".  FT2 replies "There is a lot to say about earth. There probably isn't much to say about it being round, either. Its shape is noted in passing, and gets little space regardless".  Flavius wittily retorts "That is incorrect. The implications of the Earth being flat are profound and widespread."  This did not endear him to such an important person.
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Another editor tries to make the same point, arguing (wrongly) that Wikipedia should not suggest that only one side is 'correct'.  "Please familiarize yourself with wikipedia's policy on Neutral Point of View. It says, for example, to fairly represent all sides of a dispute by not making articles state, imply, or insinuate that only one side is correct. [13]. What you continue to call "neutrally attributed sources" has absolutely nothing to do with "Neutral Point Of View policy". (User:FuelWagon|FuelWagon).  Flavius replies, correctly, that the neutrality policy requires that weight to be given to authoritative, and particularly properly peer-reviewed sources.  He mentions MEDLINE, which indexes journals as they carry weight or not, as determined by a specially-employed panel of experts.  He points out
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:There are less than 10 studies that are written up in MEDLINE indexed journals that make favourable conclusions regarding NLP (or some part thereof) (refer to my MEDLINE search). Further, these studies are offset by the 7 or so studies in MEDLINE that contain no obvious methodological flaws and make unfavourable conclusions regarding NLP (or some part therof) and the studies themselves contain obvious methodological deficiencies (see my MEDLINE search). Further to that there are numerous books -- authored by scientists -- that are cited in the NLP article (eg. Singer (1999), Lilienfeld (2003)) that arrive at a negative evalutaion of NLP. What is there left to weigh as assess? Anecdote? Testimonials? Unpublished research results? Research results published in Anchor Point and obscure journals that for all we know were founded and edited by some fruitcake? Articles in obscure journals that pseudoscience topics routinely? I'm eager to know. The consensus of scientific and clinical opinion is that NLP is bunkum. 
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An administrator argues that Flavius is not being constructive.  "I'm not getting into the specifics of NLP, because I don't know, and I don't care. But we have to conform with NPOV, and right now it's not happening. Domination of this article will lead only to revert wars like the one that got this page locked. This is what we're trying to avoid here. Instead of being defensive, we need to be constructive and reach a compromise here.  Flavius correctly replies that this is nonsense.
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:Swatjester, NPOV conformity doesn't entail passing bullshit off as fact and privileging pseudocience such that it speaks as loud as science in the article. If it did then the half of the Earth article would be devoted to flat-earth theory. flavius 05:21, 6 February 2006 (UTC) [80]
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Flavius' position perfectly reflects Wikipedia's neutrality policy.  He argues that
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#The view that NLP is efficacious and theoretically sound is a minority view not unlike "flat earth" theory. Hence it should be treated in the NLP article and in Wikipedia generally as a minority view. 
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#The scientists cited in the article are representative of the majority view of psychologists, psychiatrists, linguists, neurologists, nueropsychologists and sociologists and hence should be presented as such.
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#The few (3-5) scientists that do support and promote NLP are a minority, they are espousing a minority view and should be presented as such.
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#The view that NLP is pseudoscientific, New Age and cult-like is the majority view of psychologists, psychiatrists, linguists, neurologists, neuropsychologists and sociologists and should be presented as such.
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#The texts cited in criticism of NLP are authroritative and many are peer-reviewed.
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He correctly identifies the source of the conflict as the unwillingness of pro-NLP editors to have NLP represented as a minority view, or to have the view that NLP is ineffective and withour theoretical basis presented as the majority view. 
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:The extensive, expansive and heated discussion occured because these positions were argued for by each side in an attempt to establish the righness of their position regarding the representativess and authority of the sources ''not the righness or wrongness of NLP''. The bulk of the conflict turns around the application WP:UNDUE, NPOV:Pseudoscience, and NPOV:Giving "equal validity". The ''real'' issues have not been addressed by any mediators, arbitrarors and mentors and addressing these would not be "more of the same". It is well within your remit to adjudicate these matters. Have I explained myself clearly? Do you understand?
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Flavius is entirely correct, but the problem with Wikipedia is that administrators are merely policemen, not lawyers or judges, and have no understanding whatever of the content disputes.  They require only a limited concept of 'civility', which Flavius could not understand.
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=== The ban ===
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=== Fine moments ===
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Here is the final post that leads to Flavius being banned.
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'''FT2''': There is a lot to say about earth. There probably isn't much to say about it being round, either. Its shape is noted in passing, and gets little space regardless.  
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:I'm not being uncivil and attacking others. Why is it preferable to email you rather than post my concerns in the discussion? I don't like the furtive intrigue implicit in privately communicating to the mentors. Discussion should be open and free restricted only by the law. I'm mindful that I don't libel anyone and that's enough for my government and my conscience. Your notion of "civility" is alien to me -- it's very PC notion and Australia isn't a PC nation (sure there are pockets of it on certain univeristy campuses and government bureaucracies but it's not a national character). I'm not from the USA so I'm not imbued with the Victorian/Protestant Puritanism that you appear to be appealing to. That isn't a personal attack -- it is a matter of fact, pointing out a fact that may be unpalatable isn't a personal attack. Also, why can't I put what I like -- so long as it isn't libellous -- on "my talk" page.
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:So what if I've been blocked six times? You're the one performing the blocking it's not like your're referring to the decisions of some independent third-party, court of the land or moral authority. Your notion of a personal attack doesn't match up with mine -- it's as simple as that. I don't understand what you are having trouble understanding ("What I don't understand is"). This is an aesthetic dispute and your definition of a "personal attack" is loose and flexible. I can't read your mind or predict the future, I don't know in advance what you will deem a "personal attack" and it isn't as if I'm calling people motherfuckers or child pornographers. Libel is well-defined so I know when I'd be libelling someone. A "personal attack" in my aesthetic judgement consists of calling someone a dickhead, a fuckwit, a moron, a rapist, paedophile, con-artist, racist epithet and so on. Stating that someone is being hypocritical and then proceeding to provide an exlanation of how someone is being hypocritical isn't a personal attack. Certainly, it's not "nice" but neither are articles on bestiality, paedophilia, coprophilia, and redneck American racists[33].
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:Who will be the arbiter of whether I "belong here"? I've been complying with your blocks without any fuss. There is no way to keep a determined person off Wikipedia and I haven't resorted to any of these means (which are entirely legal, easy and unstoppable) so I don't understand why you are antagonising and threatening me. flavius 12:21, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
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=== Memorable quotes ===
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* "Whenever I encounter a modern textbook, dictionary or encyclopedia on linguistics, psycohlinguistics, philosophy of mind, cognitive science, or neurology I always look up 'Neurolinguistic Programming' and I am yet to find an entry. "
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* "That is incorrect. The implications of the Earth being flat are profound and widespread. "
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* "You are pretending that no research scientist is aware of the literature cited by FT2 and that new ground will potentially be broken on Wikipedia. This won't happen for at least two reasons: literature reviews have already been conducted and their conclusions are that NLP is unsupported scientificlly; and Wikipedia is not the place for original research (even if it is doomed to be still-born). Expanding the citations is not a violation of Wikipedia policy. My point in expanding what I could was to show that the journals cited are marginal, not credible, not reputable and hence unreliable. It says much about the marginality of the citations that I couldn't expand some of them ''at all''. FT2 has collected what is largely a bunch of junk research."
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'''Flavius''': That is incorrect. The implications of the Earth being flat are profound and widespread. [[#Comments on FT2's sourcing | here]]
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==References and links==
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* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Neuro-linguistic_programming Request for arbitration] on Neurolinguistic Programming (November 2005).
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* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&limit=500&target=Flavius+vanillus Flavius' contributions].
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* NLP talk page archives pre-2006:
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**[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming/_archive1 Archive #1 - Pre-October 2005]
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**[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming/_archive2 Archive #2 - October Disputes]
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**[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming/_archive3 Archive #3 - Mediated Disputes 1]
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**[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming/_archive4 Archive #4 - Mediated Disputes 2]
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**[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming/_archive5 Archive #5 - 3 November 2005 through 13 November 2005]
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* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Neuro-linguistic_programming/Workshop NLP aribtration workshop] - particularly good value is the section "Incivility_and_personal_attacks_by_Flavius_vanillus".
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== Comments on FT2's sourcing ==
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== Comments on FT2's sourcing (13 November 2005)==
 
"I quickly reviewed FT2's truncated abstracts and citations and I offer the following observations: (a) at least some are not sourced from reputable, peer-reviewed journals; and (b) most of the summaries are replete with vague and imprecise quantificational language (eg. "most helpful", "positive correlation" (magnitude?), "partially positive effects", "strongly related", "marked improvement", "positive reduction", "deeper trance", "substantially", "very helpful", "enormous changes", "very many of the people" etc.). The use of such vague language is evidence of methodological defect. I have reviewed some of the cited literature and I too am of the view that NLP is largely -- if not entirely -- without substance, ineffective (beyond non-specific factors) and without any scientific basis. flavius 08:37, 13 November 2005 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=28192488]
 
"I quickly reviewed FT2's truncated abstracts and citations and I offer the following observations: (a) at least some are not sourced from reputable, peer-reviewed journals; and (b) most of the summaries are replete with vague and imprecise quantificational language (eg. "most helpful", "positive correlation" (magnitude?), "partially positive effects", "strongly related", "marked improvement", "positive reduction", "deeper trance", "substantially", "very helpful", "enormous changes", "very many of the people" etc.). The use of such vague language is evidence of methodological defect. I have reviewed some of the cited literature and I too am of the view that NLP is largely -- if not entirely -- without substance, ineffective (beyond non-specific factors) and without any scientific basis. flavius 08:37, 13 November 2005 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=28192488]
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== Dialogue with Boward on NLP and pseudoscience ==
 
== Dialogue with Boward on NLP and pseudoscience ==
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Boward's post addressed with inline commentary (User:Flavius vanillus|flavius) 03:03, 15 November 2005 (UTC):
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At one point an anonymous editor from an IP address interjects a series of arguments on behalf of NLP, signing it 'WH Bowart'.  The evidence suggests the signature is genuine, and that the anon IP is [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Bowart Walter Bowart], a luminary of the counterculture movement of the 1960s, founder and editor of the first underground newspaper in New York City, the East Village Other, author of the book ''Operation Mind Control'', and leading light of the [[New Age]] movement.  Bowart's post is addressed with inline commentary by Flavius.
    
:(Boward) - '''The "Syntax" system derived from "eye patterning" movements is more of a science than anything found in the sheeple herding "sciences" of sociology or behavioral psychology or so many other supposed "sciences."' ''
 
:(Boward) - '''The "Syntax" system derived from "eye patterning" movements is more of a science than anything found in the sheeple herding "sciences" of sociology or behavioral psychology or so many other supposed "sciences."' ''
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That was me Comaze before I created an account, I point that out below for the sake of transparency. In one of his seminars Bandler claimed he submitted a doctoral thesis at the USF and was an awarded a PhD from their. He said that we had difficulty finding where to submit his dissertation because he had cut soe many classes. This sent alarm bells ringing in my head -- any one that knows anything about postgraduate study knows that the amount of classes fall the higher you progress. There are classes when you undertsake a PhD, there are only occassional meetings with your supervisor. So I wrote an email to the USF Alumni Society to ask them if a they had ever awarded a doctorate -- honorary or earned -- to a Richard Wayne Bandler. The officer replied that they had no such record. I then went to Proquest\UMI dissertation index -- I found Grinder, he did submit a thesis titled "On Deletion Phenomena" IIRC and he was awarded a doctorate. Bandler does not appear in the Proquest\UMI dissertation index. The email counts as original research and although I can supply the response complete with headers to anyone that's interested it's not suitable for Wikipedia verification puproses. A link to the Proquest\UMI dissertation index -- which I have included in the Bandler article -- should be ok. If Bandler has a doctorate it is neither from a North American university nor is it earned. I could no detail about Bandler's honrary doctorate except rumour that t came from a Continetal European university. Any attempt to solicit detail on alt.psychology.nlp is met with an avalanche of abusive replies. Attempting to verify any of Bandler's claims is strictly ''verboten'' -- the worshippers don't like their idols being tarnished. Regarding Bandler's undergraduate and graduate qualification IIRC he attempted to submit the manuscript of Magic I to the psychology department of USC as his master's thesis. It was rejected because it wasn't entirely his work. He re-worked it and submitted it and was awarded an MA in "Theoretical Psychology". The marketing angle that B&G pursued in promoting NLP wasn't compatible with one of the inventors being a psychology graduate since NLP was touted as a revolutionary breakthrough something altogether different that came from ''outside'' of psychology by two people that supposedly knew nothing of the fields. In his early seminars I have heard Bandler refer to himself as a physicist, an information scientist, a computer programmer, and a mathematician. In "Bandler Doing Bandler" I think he's an "information scientist", in one of his NHR recordings he's physicist (with a special interest in optics, which is the leadin to his pontifications about holographic memoey) and in one of his DHE recordings (IIRC) he's a computer programmer. Can we remove the reference to him as being a mathematician, he is no such thing and their is no evidence that he even took a single unit in math at university. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 04:13, 17 December 2005 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=31695516]
 
That was me Comaze before I created an account, I point that out below for the sake of transparency. In one of his seminars Bandler claimed he submitted a doctoral thesis at the USF and was an awarded a PhD from their. He said that we had difficulty finding where to submit his dissertation because he had cut soe many classes. This sent alarm bells ringing in my head -- any one that knows anything about postgraduate study knows that the amount of classes fall the higher you progress. There are classes when you undertsake a PhD, there are only occassional meetings with your supervisor. So I wrote an email to the USF Alumni Society to ask them if a they had ever awarded a doctorate -- honorary or earned -- to a Richard Wayne Bandler. The officer replied that they had no such record. I then went to Proquest\UMI dissertation index -- I found Grinder, he did submit a thesis titled "On Deletion Phenomena" IIRC and he was awarded a doctorate. Bandler does not appear in the Proquest\UMI dissertation index. The email counts as original research and although I can supply the response complete with headers to anyone that's interested it's not suitable for Wikipedia verification puproses. A link to the Proquest\UMI dissertation index -- which I have included in the Bandler article -- should be ok. If Bandler has a doctorate it is neither from a North American university nor is it earned. I could no detail about Bandler's honrary doctorate except rumour that t came from a Continetal European university. Any attempt to solicit detail on alt.psychology.nlp is met with an avalanche of abusive replies. Attempting to verify any of Bandler's claims is strictly ''verboten'' -- the worshippers don't like their idols being tarnished. Regarding Bandler's undergraduate and graduate qualification IIRC he attempted to submit the manuscript of Magic I to the psychology department of USC as his master's thesis. It was rejected because it wasn't entirely his work. He re-worked it and submitted it and was awarded an MA in "Theoretical Psychology". The marketing angle that B&G pursued in promoting NLP wasn't compatible with one of the inventors being a psychology graduate since NLP was touted as a revolutionary breakthrough something altogether different that came from ''outside'' of psychology by two people that supposedly knew nothing of the fields. In his early seminars I have heard Bandler refer to himself as a physicist, an information scientist, a computer programmer, and a mathematician. In "Bandler Doing Bandler" I think he's an "information scientist", in one of his NHR recordings he's physicist (with a special interest in optics, which is the leadin to his pontifications about holographic memoey) and in one of his DHE recordings (IIRC) he's a computer programmer. Can we remove the reference to him as being a mathematician, he is no such thing and their is no evidence that he even took a single unit in math at university. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 04:13, 17 December 2005 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=31695516]
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== Incivility and personal attacks by Flavius vanillus ==
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9) Flavius_vanillus (talk · contribs) has violated Wikipedia:Civility [59] [60], see User_talk:Flavius_vanillus#avoid_personal_remarks. See also [61] [62] [63]
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'''Comment by Arbitrators''':  A lot of newsnet type spamming too Fred Bauder 15:47, 21 December 2005 (UTC)  Your stuff is funny, yes, I enjoy watching Ann Coulter myself, but acting that way is beyond the bounds of Wikipedia. Usenet type spamming is discussing an issue rather than how to write the article. Fred Bauder 00:52, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
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Comment by parties:
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'''FLAVIUS''': What precisely is "newsnet type spamming"? flavius 13:46, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
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In my defence I'll point out that my incivilities and personal attacks are witty :o) flavius 13:46, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
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The matter of incivility, discourtesy and personal attacks is a pretext for being obstructionist. With the exception of Aaron "Kookla" Kulkis the offending remarks by all parties are anodyne. flavius 13:52, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
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Fred, you state that "Usenet type spamming is discussing an issue rather than how to write the article". No it isn't. Discussing and issue is just that: discussing and issue and it is a prerequisite to composing an article where there is any contention. Spamming has nothing to do with discussion. Both Usenet and the discussion pages are intended for discussion. Save the term spamming for its proper use, viz. the posting of unsolicited commercial bulk messages. Debating an issue in the discussion area -- even if the discussion has become removed temporarily from the central dispute -- is eminently preferable to unilateral editing which will usually be reverted. Where a zealot or disordered individual appears on the discussion page and/or makes unilateral, uninformed and promotional edits it is necessary -- however tedious -- to squash each assertion, factoid, falsity and flawed argument. To do otherwise would be to practice a form censorship and thereby legitimise corruption of the article made on the pretext of voicing "the truth". Rational discourse with suitable evidence and argument attempts to move a dispute into a justiciable framework and introduce objectivity in place of emoting and subjectivity. I contend that discussing an issue -- and presenting evidence and argument -- has been more effective in connection with this article than all of the arbitrartion thus far. flavius 07:09, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
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'''COMAZE''': In defense of flavius, I think this editor has made some valuable contributions to the article and discussion on both sides of the debate. The occasional personal remark or incivility was out of character. --Comaze 00:46, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
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== Is NLP a cult? ==
 
== Is NLP a cult? ==
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''You have been blocked for 2 weeks For this. This is your 6th block, Flavius. Any further disruption is going to lead to an indefinite block. Last chance''. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 12:57, 1 April 2006 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Flavius_vanillus&diff=prev&oldid=46452261]
 
''You have been blocked for 2 weeks For this. This is your 6th block, Flavius. Any further disruption is going to lead to an indefinite block. Last chance''. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 12:57, 1 April 2006 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Flavius_vanillus&diff=prev&oldid=46452261]
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What is wrong with that edit? How is it disruptive? flavius 13:01, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  
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'''Flavius''': What is wrong with that edit? How is it disruptive? flavius 13:01, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  
It is a personal attack from start to finish. I had to remove the entire thing because I couldn't even refactor it to something keepable. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 13:11, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  
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'''Admin''': It is a personal attack from start to finish. I had to remove the entire thing because I couldn't even refactor it to something keepable. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 13:11, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  
The whole thing? Even the bit where I refer to Wikipedia policy? The third point could be construed as a personal attack but the first two aren't. Can you at least reinstate the first two points? flavius 13:38, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
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'''Flavius''': The whole thing? Even the bit where I refer to Wikipedia policy? The third point could be construed as a personal attack but the first two aren't. Can you at least reinstate the first two points? flavius 13:38, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
    
== In which Flavius gets banned ==
 
== In which Flavius gets banned ==
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[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:Flavius_vanillus '''FLAVIUS IS BANNED''']
 
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:Flavius_vanillus '''FLAVIUS IS BANNED''']
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== Reincarnations ==
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I'm the person that once posted as Flavius Vanillus. I haven't looked at the NLP article in many months let alone edited it. Contrary to the unsubstantiated view being self-righteously promoted by FT2 I and Headley Down are two distinct people. I actually "met" Headley Down when (s)he introduced him/herself on My Page when I opened the Flavius Vanillus account. Furthermore, I do not and did not belong to any sceptics forum or society. There was/is no anti-NLP cabal. I've ''never'' posted to Wikipedia using two co-existent online identities. Certainly, Headley Down used many sock puppets -- and I discovered this only just before the "authorities" did so via my own stylistic comparisons (you can find my early discussion page posts where I raise my suspicion about Headley Down). I did correspond with Headley Down just as I corresponded with Comaze (to validate my identity I'll remind Scott (Comaze) that in a private email I directed him to an error in the 'Contact Us' mark-up on his business site). We exchanged references and discussed our frustrations but there was no conspiracy. I feel compelled to post because FT2 is indulging in conspiratorial fantasy and is negating the value of mine and Headley Down's contributions to the article. My editing style was conservative in that I didn't commit anything to the article unless I could substantiate it. I was also ready to discard those edits when I could see that some of them comprised OR. For the record I'm a male IT professional based in Australia, Headley Down is/was a PhD student from Hong Kong. An IP address check would have shown that I am not Headley Down. Although I am posting through a private proxy at the moment I never did so when I was editing the article. A mod. can verify that as Flavius I consistently edited from an well-known Australian ISP address block. Instead of due dilligence FT2 merely assumed that there was only one person presenting an NLP-critical view. Excluding Headley Downes socks there were at least four people at one point presenting an NLP-critical view. I've noticed also that FT2 is automatically accusing ''everyone'' that offers a critical view of being Headley Down. I've no intention of editing the NLP article (even though I could easily do so with the abundance of closed/private HTTP proxy servers around the world) and I ask only that this post remain in the discussion page to offset the self-righteous propaganda that FT2 has been spreading. 
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On reflection it was a case of "too many cooks" and this did not serve the interests of producing a good article. The problem now is that in the absence of any critical opinion (or its relgation to the sidelines) the article risks becoming a promotional "puff piece" for the NLP industry. I'm not offering myself as the antidote nor am I campaigning for the return of Headley Down. That notwithstanding both I and Headley and his/her many personas helped to "keep the bastards honest" (to quote the late Don Chipp). In my view Comaze and GregA were the best of the pro-NLP editors even though I feel that their commercial interests in NLP are skewing some of their views (but this is normal, we all have biases). Having Comaze and GregA edit the article doesn't alarm me. In my experience both had some understanding and appreciation of the notion of evidence and were quite clear thinkers. I don't feel I can extend the same assessment to FT2. FT2 carries an idelogical stench whereever (s)he seems to go in "Wikipedia World". There is a clear advocacy and promotion in FT2s edits. Furthermore, the promotion and advocacy is unsophisticated and lazy in the sense that it is apparently exlusively based on Google. FT2's edits are replete with unsubstantiated opinion -- the "NLP and Science" article is a particularly egregious example of this tendency, it is a mass of unsubstantiated verbiage.
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This is statement of the obvious (I know) but you'll only achieve stability in the article if it succeeds in carefully treading the tight-rope of neutrality. I can now see we did push too hard on some issues (eg. NLP and magick) and this was counter-productive and wasteful of time and energy. However, the pro-NLP editors were no less culpable in different ways. There was (and remains) a tendency to present disguised forms of the ''argument from ignorance'', i.e. there is no scientific evidence against hypothesis ''H'' so we'll act as if there evidence for ''H'' else we'll argue that the conventional concept of evidence is irrelevant. This brings me to the other persistent problem about "epistemology". Grinder's idiosyncratic conception of "epistemology" should be presented as just that, namely Grinders view. Also if Grinder has an an argument to support his take on "epistemology" then it should be referenced. If he has no such argument in defence of his "epistemology" then that too should be stated. The notion that a hypothesis can be epistemologically "promoted" by arguing that it originated from a proto-science, that it is a "model", that it is a "pragmatic model" that can't be wrong or right or that is based on a pardigm shift is mere sophistry.
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[[User:64.46.47.242|64.46.47.242]] 04:22, 16 December 2006 (UTC) The editor formerly known an Flavius ;-)
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[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=94646652&oldid=94631169]
    
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