Changes

'''Flavius Vanillus''' edited from on Wikipedia from 7 November 2005 - 2 April 2006 [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&limit=500&target=Flavius+vanillus] .  His contributions are interesting and important because they show clear signs of scientific education, a clear grasp of the thinking behind the scientific method and its connection with the Wikipedia principles concerning [[Directory:The Wikipedia Point of View/Neutral Point of View | Neutral Point of View]].  Nonetheless he was banned forever on 2 April 2006.

'''Flavius Vanillus''' edited from on Wikipedia from 7 November 2005 - 2 April 2006 [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&limit=500&target=Flavius+vanillus] .  His contributions are interesting and important because they show clear signs of scientific education, a clear grasp of the thinking behind the scientific method and its connection with the Wikipedia principles concerning [[Directory:The Wikipedia Point of View/Neutral Point of View | Neutral Point of View]].  Nonetheless he was banned from Wikipedia on 2 April 2006.

== Comments on FT2's sourcing ==

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

== Comments on FT2's sourcing (13 November 2005)==

"I quickly reviewed FT2's truncated abstracts and citations and I offer the following observations: (a) at least some are not sourced from reputable, peer-reviewed journals; and (b) most of the summaries are replete with vague and imprecise quantificational language (eg. "most helpful", "positive correlation" (magnitude?), "partially positive effects", "strongly related", "marked improvement", "positive reduction", "deeper trance", "substantially", "very helpful", "enormous changes", "very many of the people" etc.). The use of such vague language is evidence of methodological defect. I have reviewed some of the cited literature and I too am of the view that NLP is largely -- if not entirely -- without substance, ineffective (beyond non-specific factors) and without any scientific basis. flavius 08:37, 13 November 2005 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=28192488]

"I quickly reviewed FT2's truncated abstracts and citations and I offer the following observations: (a) at least some are not sourced from reputable, peer-reviewed journals; and (b) most of the summaries are replete with vague and imprecise quantificational language (eg. "most helpful", "positive correlation" (magnitude?), "partially positive effects", "strongly related", "marked improvement", "positive reduction", "deeper trance", "substantially", "very helpful", "enormous changes", "very many of the people" etc.). The use of such vague language is evidence of methodological defect. I have reviewed some of the cited literature and I too am of the view that NLP is largely -- if not entirely -- without substance, ineffective (beyond non-specific factors) and without any scientific basis. flavius 08:37, 13 November 2005 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=28192488]

== Dialogue with Boward on NLP and pseudoscience ==

== Dialogue with Boward on NLP and pseudoscience ==

::Boward's post addressed with inline commentary (User:Flavius vanillus|flavius) 03:03, 15 November 2005 (UTC):

At one point an anonymous editor from an IP address interjects a series of arguments on behalf of NLP, signing it 'WH Bowart'.  The evidence suggests the signature is genuine, and that the anon IP is [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Bowart Walter Bowart], a luminary of the counterculture movement of the 1960s, founder and editor of the first underground newspaper in New York City, the East Village Other, author of the book ''Operation Mind Control'', and leading light of the [[New Age]] movement.  Bowart's post is addressed with inline commentary by Flavius.

:'The "Syntax" system derived from "eye patterning" movements is more of a science than anything found in the sheeple herding "sciences" of sociology or behavioral psychology or so many other supposed "sciences."'  

 

:(Boward) - '''The "Syntax" system derived from "eye patterning" movements is more of a science than anything found in the sheeple herding "sciences" of sociology or behavioral psychology or so many other supposed "sciences."' ''

    

    

::This is problematic for several reasons: (1) it is nothing more than a bold assertion. Do you have any evidence -- in the form of peer reviewed research reults -- that demonstrates the validity of NLPs eye accessing cues theory? (2) it appears that you are operating from an idiosyncratic (and self-serving) definition of 'science'; (3) there is no such field as 'behavioral psychology'. Psychology is -- by definition -- the study of behavior so the phrase behavioral psychology' is redundant not unlike 'brain neurology'.   

This is problematic for several reasons: (1) it is nothing more than a bold assertion. Do you have any evidence -- in the form of peer reviewed research reults -- that demonstrates the validity of NLPs eye accessing cues theory? (2) it appears that you are operating from an idiosyncratic (and self-serving) definition of 'science'; (3) there is no such field as 'behavioral psychology'. Psychology is -- by definition -- the study of behavior so the phrase behavioral psychology' is redundant not unlike 'brain neurology'.   

    

    

:'It looks like the "skeptics" (mismatchers in NLP lingo) got hold of this page,'  

:''It looks like the "skeptics" (mismatchers in NLP lingo) got hold of this page,''  

    

    

::This is troubling. It is a form of ad hominem and it is redolent of the Scientology notion of 'Suppressive Person' in terms of function i.e. automatically discounting all criticism and defining an "out group".  

This is troubling. It is a form of ad hominem and it is redolent of the Scientology notion of 'Suppressive Person' in terms of function i.e. automatically discounting all criticism and defining an "out group".  

    

    

:'and we all know that most scientists who've had breakthrough ideas are not skeptics.'  

:''and we all know that most scientists who've had breakthrough ideas are not skeptics.' '

    

    

::This is another bold assertion without any substantiation. From my reading of the history of science this is an entirely false assertion. The common trait of all of the great scientists is scpeticism i.e. a tendency to question everything and not accept it as true without due evidence and explanation. Albert Einstein's general relativity can be understood as an outgrowth of a sceptical disposition towards Isaac Newton's law of universal gravitation. The work of Galileo Galilei represents a scepticsm and challenge of the Aristotlian concpeption of the natural world. Nicolaeus Copernicus heliocentric theory of the solar system was a direct challenge to the Ptolemaic geocentric view. When James Clark Maxwell formulated his now famous (eponymous) equations he corrected Ampere's law. In formulating the germ theory Louis Pasteur challenged the prevailing notion of spontaneous generation. I can list many more such examples. All of the preceding scientists were highly sceptical else they would not have been prompted to demonstrate the inadequacy of an existing theory via argumentation and/or experimentation. Can you demonstrate -- with reference to actual examples of scientific deiscovery -- that this is not the case?  

This is another bold assertion without any substantiation. From my reading of the history of science this is an entirely false assertion. The common trait of all of the great scientists is scpeticism i.e. a tendency to question everything and not accept it as true without due evidence and explanation. Albert Einstein's general relativity can be understood as an outgrowth of a sceptical disposition towards Isaac Newton's law of universal gravitation. The work of Galileo Galilei represents a scepticsm and challenge of the Aristotlian concpeption of the natural world. Nicolaeus Copernicus heliocentric theory of the solar system was a direct challenge to the Ptolemaic geocentric view. When James Clark Maxwell formulated his now famous (eponymous) equations he corrected Ampere's law. In formulating the germ theory Louis Pasteur challenged the prevailing notion of spontaneous generation. I can list many more such examples. All of the preceding scientists were highly sceptical else they would not have been prompted to demonstrate the inadequacy of an existing theory via argumentation and/or experimentation. Can you demonstrate -- with reference to actual examples of scientific discovery -- that this is not the case?  

    

    

:'The top scientists are visionaries (matchers in NLP lingo.)'  

:''The top scientists are visionaries (matchers in NLP lingo.)' '

    

    

::No, not necessarily. Michael Faraday -- for example -- was a great scientist though he was not visionary. Faraday was distinguished as a brilliant scientist by his inquisitive nature and ability to devise ingenious experiments to test his hypotheses. 'Vision' is less associated with science and more with echnology. Scientists generally don't labour with a clear and specific conception of the future in mind. Also, this 'matcher'/'mismatcher' dichotomy is intellectually (and epistemologically) bankrupt. The universe is not that simple.  

No, not necessarily. Michael Faraday -- for example -- was a great scientist though he was not visionary. Faraday was distinguished as a brilliant scientist by his inquisitive nature and ability to devise ingenious experiments to test his hypotheses. 'Vision' is less associated with science and more with echnology. Scientists generally don't labour with a clear and specific conception of the future in mind. Also, this 'matcher'/'mismatcher' dichotomy is intellectually (and epistemologically) bankrupt. The universe is not that simple.  

    

    

:'They have an idea, then they try to prove that it works.'  

:''They have an idea, then they try to prove that it works.' '

    

    

::No, that is how pseudoscientists operate. Scientists formulate a hypothesis and then design an experiment to attempt to falsify that hypothesis. This is a truism amongst scientists. If I formulated the hypothesis that 'all swans are white' I wouldn't test that by seeking white swans. Instead I'd seek black swans. Finding white swans would not have the intended effect of proving my hypothesis.  

No, that is how pseudoscientists operate. Scientists formulate a hypothesis and then design an experiment to attempt to falsify that hypothesis. This is a truism amongst scientists. If I formulated the hypothesis that 'all swans are white' I wouldn't test that by seeking white swans. Instead I'd seek black swans. Finding white swans would not have the intended effect of proving my hypothesis.  

    

    

:'If a scientist maintains a skeptical point of view they will most likely not be inclined to think outside the box, they will most likely not come up with the new ideas needed for innovation and change.'  

:''If a scientist maintains a skeptical point of view they will most likely not be inclined to think outside the box, they will most likely not come up with the new ideas needed for innovation and change.''

    

    

::In the absence of scpeticism science would stagnate. Scientists publish their results and methodology for the purpose of critical review and reproduction. Other scientists attempt to reproduce published results -- and thereby grow the body of scientific knowledge -- because they are of a scpetical disposition, they do not blindly accept the results of a novel piece of research. Can you cite any advances in science that took place as a result of uncritical accpetance of a result?  

In the absence of scpeticism science would stagnate. Scientists publish their results and methodology for the purpose of critical review and reproduction. Other scientists attempt to reproduce published results -- and thereby grow the body of scientific knowledge -- because they are of a scpetical disposition, they do not blindly accept the results of a novel piece of research. Can you cite any advances in science that took place as a result of uncritical accpetance of a result?  

    

    

:'The strongest argument that NLP is a science is (after looking at the NLP system) one looks at the neurological studies done by Karl Pribram and others at UCLA. Add to this the MRI studies done with sufferers of "multiple personality disorder", now called "dissociative Identity Disorder." Pribram's findings about the behavior of the brain, when it "switches" from one personality to another, matches the NLP model which preceded Pribram's finding and the MRI results.'  

:''The strongest argument that NLP is a science is (after looking at the NLP system) one looks at the neurological studies done by Karl Pribram and others at UCLA. Add to this the MRI studies done with sufferers of "multiple personality disorder", now called "dissociative Identity Disorder." Pribram's findings about the behavior of the brain, when it "switches" from one personality to another, matches the NLP model which preceded Pribram's finding and the MRI results.''

    

    

::This in no way establishes NLP as a science. Also, it appears that you are operating from an impoverished map of the universe. You appear to be conflating 'science' with 'technology'. Also, the concepts that define the traditional demarcation between science and pseudoscience are derived from the works of Karl Popper and Imre Lakatos. Central to the meaning of science are the characteristics of 'falsifiability' and 'disconfirmation'. Lakatos also distinguised science by its 'progressive research program'. NLP makes many unfalsifiable claims, it has little if any predictive power, and its research program is degenerating therefore it is pseudoscience. (I can elaborate on this matter if necessary).  

This in no way establishes NLP as a science. Also, it appears that you are operating from an impoverished map of the universe. You appear to be conflating 'science' with 'technology'. Also, the concepts that define the traditional demarcation between science and pseudoscience are derived from the works of Karl Popper and Imre Lakatos. Central to the meaning of science are the characteristics of 'falsifiability' and 'disconfirmation'. Lakatos also distinguised science by its 'progressive research program'. NLP makes many unfalsifiable claims, it has little if any predictive power, and its research program is degenerating therefore it is pseudoscience. (I can elaborate on this matter if necessary).  

    

    

:'The editors of this fine free encyclopedia (a People's Encyclopedia -- what a concept) might find a way to filter out the disinformation and misinformation which flows from nay-sayers, debunkers, and cover artists.'  

:''The editors of this fine free encyclopedia (a People's Encyclopedia -- what a concept) might find a way to filter out the disinformation and misinformation which flows from nay-sayers, debunkers, and cover artists.''

    

    

::This attitude is symptomatic of a degenerating research program (which is a characteristic of pseudoscience). A research program is deemed 'progressive' if it at least sometimes produces new predictions that are confirmed. It is deemed as degenerating if it fails to lead to new and confirmed predictions. That is to say, in a progressive research program theoretical predictions successfully anticipate new data. In a degenarting research program the data precedes the theory, there is data "in search of a theory", post hoc explanations abound. An example of this is the addition of the notion of meta-programs to NLP, specifically to 'cognitive strategies'. When it was discovered that individuals with identical strategies presented fundamental differences the notion of meta-programs was postulated to prevent the falsification of the 'cognitive stragetgies' theory (see [http://www.nlpuniversitypress.com/html2/MdMe26.html]).  

This attitude is symptomatic of a degenerating research program (which is a characteristic of pseudoscience). A research program is deemed 'progressive' if it at least sometimes produces new predictions that are confirmed. It is deemed as degenerating if it fails to lead to new and confirmed predictions. That is to say, in a progressive research program theoretical predictions successfully anticipate new data. In a degenarting research program the data precedes the theory, there is data "in search of a theory", post hoc explanations abound. An example of this is the addition of the notion of meta-programs to NLP, specifically to 'cognitive strategies'. When it was discovered that individuals with identical strategies presented fundamental differences the notion of meta-programs was postulated to prevent the falsification of the 'cognitive stragetgies' theory (see [http://www.nlpuniversitypress.com/html2/MdMe26.html]).  

    

    

:'( NLP has deep roots in the cryptocracy's MKUltra programs. I am lumping them together under the MKU umbrella, rather than name all the programs that spanned 70 years or so.)'  

:''( NLP has deep roots in the cryptocracy's MKUltra programs. I am lumping them together under the MKU umbrella, rather than name all the programs that spanned 70 years or so.)''

    

    

::The roots of NLP are well documented, refer to [http://users.pandora.be/merlevede/nlpfaqc3.htm] and Grinder's 'Whispering in the Wind'. I'm quite familiar with NLP and its history, there is no evidence for your wild claim.  

The roots of NLP are well documented, refer to [http://users.pandora.be/merlevede/nlpfaqc3.htm] and Grinder's 'Whispering in the Wind'. I'm quite familiar with NLP and its history, there is no evidence for your wild claim.  

    

    

:'Once you understand that NLP is a super form of hypnosis ( modeled by Grinder and Bandler, in part, upon the practices of Milton H. Erickson, a scientist, a psychiatrist, a hypnotherapist, and a brilliant mind, great wit, and generous friend) is one of many names for an emerging science, one that comes out of the clinics where people are being treated for Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (the VA gives drugs only), and the pandemic of disorders that (study your Marshall McLuhan) may be the result of technological influences.'  

:''Once you understand that NLP is a super form of hypnosis ( modeled by Grinder and Bandler, in part, upon the practices of Milton H. Erickson, a scientist, a psychiatrist, a hypnotherapist, and a brilliant mind, great wit, and generous friend) is one of many names for an emerging science, one that comes out of the clinics where people are being treated for Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (the VA gives drugs only), and the pandemic of disorders that (study your Marshall McLuhan) may be the result of technological influences.''

    

    

::The above sentence is unparseable, i.e. it is ungrammatical. Also, many of the 'misnmatchers'/sceptics such as myself have had NLP training and are familiar with the primary NLP works (Magic I&II, Patterns I&II, Tranceformations and 'Frogs into Princes').   

The above sentence is unparseable, i.e. it is ungrammatical. Also, many of the 'misnmatchers'/sceptics such as myself have had NLP training and are familiar with the primary NLP works (Magic I&II, Patterns I&II, Tranceformations and 'Frogs into Princes').   

    

    

:'One of the foremost specialists in psychiatry exclaimed, upon meeting me for the first time at a conference in Santa Barbara: "This country has gone mad..." I was amazed that he recognized this, not because of any lack of intelligence on his part, but because of his conditioning in medical school. When I thought about it, I remembered that he had been educated, and had practiced for many years, in a foreign country and therefore could think outside the AMA box.'  

:''One of the foremost specialists in psychiatry exclaimed, upon meeting me for the first time at a conference in Santa Barbara: "This country has gone mad..." I was amazed that he recognized this, not because of any lack of intelligence on his part, but because of his conditioning in medical school. When I thought about it, I remembered that he had been educated, and had practiced for many years, in a foreign country and therefore could think outside the AMA box.''

    

    

::A paragraph earlier you characterised Milton Erickson as a "brilliant" mind. Erickson was educated in the North American University system, gained a degree in medicine and a post-graduate qualification in pscychiatry. He also practiced. How is it that your suspicion does not extend to Erickson. Similarly, both Grinder and Bandler were educated in North American universities. Also, the "subtext" of the above is that your behavior prompted the foremost specialist[s] in psychiatry" to exclain "This country has gone mad". David Icke (the man that believes that amongst others George Bush, Bill and Hilary Clinton, Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mum, Bob Hope and Kris Kristofferson are shape shifting reptiles) wasn't part of this conference was he? Who was this unnamed 'foremost specialist[s] in psychiatry'?  

A paragraph earlier you characterised Milton Erickson as a "brilliant" mind. Erickson was educated in the North American University system, gained a degree in medicine and a post-graduate qualification in pscychiatry. He also practiced. How is it that your suspicion does not extend to Erickson. Similarly, both Grinder and Bandler were educated in North American universities. Also, the "subtext" of the above is that your behavior prompted the foremost specialist[s] in psychiatry" to exclain "This country has gone mad". David Icke (the man that believes that amongst others George Bush, Bill and Hilary Clinton, Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mum, Bob Hope and Kris Kristofferson are shape shifting reptiles) wasn't part of this conference was he? Who was this unnamed 'foremost specialist[s] in psychiatry'?  

    

    

:'When you think about the Diagnostic and Statistical Manuals, you realize that it's largely a sorting mechanism, tagging a variety of transitory conditions with a variety of names, and having the bias of attempting to find pharmaceutical treatments with drugs for symptoms, masking the cause of the symptom, making life hard on clients and health care providers, and easy on the insurance companies who are represented on the panels which decide what will and will not go into any particular edition. (For example, compare the DSM-III with the DSM- IV.)'  

:''When you think about the Diagnostic and Statistical Manuals, you realize that it's largely a sorting mechanism, tagging a variety of transitory conditions with a variety of names, and having the bias of attempting to find pharmaceutical treatments with drugs for symptoms, masking the cause of the symptom, making life hard on clients and health care providers, and easy on the insurance companies who are represented on the panels which decide what will and will not go into any particular edition. (For example, compare the DSM-III with the DSM- IV.)''

    

    

::How is chronic depression "transitory"? The symptoms and phenomenology of mental illnesses such as depression, paranoid-schizophrenia, obsessive-compulsive disorder and phobia are largely consistent within the same person and between different people (and even different cultures) and they are clustered consistently. You appear to be alluding to the common NLP "article of faith" that menatal illness is a nominalisation (in a somewhat incoherent manner). There is no evidence that mental illness is merely a nominalisation.   

How is chronic depression "transitory"? The symptoms and phenomenology of mental illnesses such as depression, paranoid-schizophrenia, obsessive-compulsive disorder and phobia are largely consistent within the same person and between different people (and even different cultures) and they are clustered consistently. You appear to be alluding to the common NLP "article of faith" that menatal illness is a nominalisation (in a somewhat incoherent manner). There is no evidence that mental illness is merely a nominalisation.   

    

    

:'Recently, for the first time, a science journal has published a series of articles in which a number of leading practitioners agreed that the abuse of a child has profound affects upon the mental health of the adult they grow up to be. For thirty or forty years, this fact was obvious to the clinicians and therapists and only now has it come out because of the "collapse of the ((mental)) health system". At the last minute, apparently, it's time to get real. If this single idea gets more support, and after the usual years of nattering and peer reviews find it indeed true, then things will have to change. The first thing that might change for the better is the American judicial system which holds that the plea "not guilty by reason of insanity" is a form of malingering. The Shrinks sold out all of the accused in the 1970's and the prisons have filled up with "criminals" suffering from one of the many disorders and psychoses found in that three-lettered big book.'  

:''Recently, for the first time, a science journal has published a series of articles in which a number of leading practitioners agreed that the abuse of a child has profound affects upon the mental health of the adult they grow up to be. For thirty or forty years, this fact was obvious to the clinicians and therapists and only now has it come out because of the "collapse of the ((mental)) health system". At the last minute, apparently, it's time to get real. If this single idea gets more support, and after the usual years of nattering and peer reviews find it indeed true, then things will have to change. The first thing that might change for the better is the American judicial system which holds that the plea "not guilty by reason of insanity" is a form of malingering. The Shrinks sold out all of the accused in the 1970's and the prisons have filled up with "criminals" suffering from one of the many disorders and psychoses found in that three-lettered big book.''

    

    

::What science journal? Can you provide a citation?  

What science journal? Can you provide a citation?  

    

    

:'For those who want to debunk NLP as "non-scientific" ask them to describe the science in advanced physics.'  

:''For those who want to debunk NLP as "non-scientific" ask them to describe the science in advanced physics.''

    

    

::NLP isn't merely unscientific, it doesn't work any better than placebo. What topic in advanced physics do you want an explanation of?  

NLP isn't merely unscientific, it doesn't work any better than placebo. What topic in advanced physics do you want an explanation of?  

    

    

:'Note that most of the verbage in a science that gave us the nuclear age was, and is still, largely only theoretical.'  

:''Note that most of the verbage in a science that gave us the nuclear age was, and is still, largely only theoretical.''

    

    

::The fact that the nuclear age actually exists and has artifacts (eg. nuclear power plants, nuclear weapons, medical imaging, radiotherapy, atomic clocks, radiocarbon dating, geiger counters) makes it plain that nuclear physics is not 'largely only theoretical'.  

The fact that the nuclear age actually exists and has artifacts (eg. nuclear power plants, nuclear weapons, medical imaging, radiotherapy, atomic clocks, radiocarbon dating, geiger counters) makes it plain that nuclear physics is not 'largely only theoretical'.  

    

    

:'As are most of the other cutting-edge and rapidly emerging sciences.'  

:''As are most of the other cutting-edge and rapidly emerging sciences.''

    

    

::NLP is neither scientific (according to the criteria of falsifiability, disconfirmation and progressive research program) nor is it cutting-edge (it is based on linguistic, psychological and neurological theories from the 1970s, when Bandler was studying at university).  

NLP is neither scientific (according to the criteria of falsifiability, disconfirmation and progressive research program) nor is it cutting-edge (it is based on linguistic, psychological and neurological theories from the 1970s, when Bandler was studying at university).  

    

    

:'And this is a "hard science", not a "soft science" like most of the other disiplines we call science which are not much more than huge collections of theoretical exercises.'  

:''And this is a "hard science", not a "soft science" like most of the other disiplines we call science which are not much more than huge collections of theoretical exercises.''

    

    

::It's not science. You've yet to establish NLP as a science let alone a 'hard science'.  

It's not science. You've yet to establish NLP as a science let alone a 'hard science'.  

    

    

:'My criteria is, "does it work?" when applied in the clinic, and can it be repeated by others with predictable results. If the answer is yes, then it's probably a science (a form of academic politics). If it doesn't work, one stops trying to use it, and goes on to something else. And that's why we don't hear much about some of the "human development" studies.'  

:''My criteria is, "does it work?" when applied in the clinic, and can it be repeated by others with predictable results. If the answer is yes, then it's probably a science (a form of academic politics). If it doesn't work, one stops trying to use it, and goes on to something else. And that's why we don't hear much about some of the "human development" studies.''

    

    

::How do you know that when NLP "works" in the clinic you aren't merely witnessing the effect of non-specific factors?  

How do you know that when NLP "works" in the clinic you aren't merely witnessing the effect of non-specific factors?  

    

    

:'For those who use the pet phase "cult", I ask them only to stop shooting themselves in the foot with that word. Go look it up in the Oxford English Dictionary and find out it means merely "a small group." And we know that all science is emerging from a "cult" -- a small group of people -- because the general public, largely semi-literate and poorly educated can't even handle their native language, let alone the jargon that attempts to clarify the esoteric meanings of many scientific insights.'  

:''For those who use the pet phase "cult", I ask them only to stop shooting themselves in the foot with that word. Go look it up in the Oxford English Dictionary and find out it means merely "a small group." And we know that all science is emerging from a "cult" -- a small group of people -- because the general public, largely semi-literate and poorly educated can't even handle their native language, let alone the jargon that attempts to clarify the esoteric meanings of many scientific insights.''

    

    

::The word cult has a distinct meaning when used by cult experts such as Lifton, Singer and Hassan. Your post could readily be characterised as semi-literate, uninformed and delusional.  

The word cult has a distinct meaning when used by cult experts such as Lifton, Singer and Hassan. Your post could readily be characterised as semi-literate, uninformed and delusional.  

    

    

:'I think that all this "by-pass charge" ( a useful cult term) about NLP comes from people who are threatened by the concepts (I call them the Golden Lies) of NLP which start with "You create your own reality." Now, let's see them argue with that phrase... I hope I have another page to reply.'  

:''I think that all this "by-pass charge" ( a useful cult term) about NLP comes from people who are threatened by the concepts (I call them the Golden Lies) of NLP which start with "You create your own reality." Now, let's see them argue with that phrase... I hope I have another page to reply.''

    

    

::I don't think so. Many people -- including myself -- that are critical of NLP commenced its study without any preconceptions and biases and parted with many thousands of dollars attending seminars and purchasing video/audio tapes. A younger -- more naive -- version of me was drawn by the promises and claims of NLP only to find after many years and many dollars that the emperor has no clothes and that I had been duped. I never felt "threatened" or challenged by any aspect of NLP. I found that it doesn't work (the expensive way) and I had the courage to admit I had been deceived and swindled out of my money and proceeded to extricate myself from the NLP 'community'. Many NLPers assume that its not working because they haven't understood something and keep returning to seminars and buying more tapes and books hoping that it will eventually click. My investigations -- after I grieved my loss of time and money and resolved the implications to my self-identity if being taken for a ride -- confirmed my suspicions. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 03:03, 15 November 2005 (UTC)  [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=28359188]

I don't think so. Many people -- including myself -- that are critical of NLP commenced its study without any preconceptions and biases and parted with many thousands of dollars attending seminars and purchasing video/audio tapes. A younger -- more naive -- version of me was drawn by the promises and claims of NLP only to find after many years and many dollars that the emperor has no clothes and that I had been duped. I never felt "threatened" or challenged by any aspect of NLP. I found that it doesn't work (the expensive way) and I had the courage to admit I had been deceived and swindled out of my money and proceeded to extricate myself from the NLP 'community'. Many NLPers assume that its not working because they haven't understood something and keep returning to seminars and buying more tapes and books hoping that it will eventually click. My investigations -- after I grieved my loss of time and money and resolved the implications to my self-identity if being taken for a ride -- confirmed my suspicions. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 03:03, 15 November 2005 (UTC)  [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=28359188]

== Use of authoritative sources (Medline) ==

== Use of authoritative sources (Medline) ==

'''Flavius''': No it isn't. In so far as your editorial intentions conflict with NPOV policy then they are objectionable. flavius 03:54, 20 November 2005 (UTC)  

'''Flavius''': No it isn't. In so far as your editorial intentions conflict with NPOV policy then they are objectionable. flavius 03:54, 20 November 2005 (UTC)  

'''FT2''': Wikipedia has its own perspective. It's not post modern or relative. It's called NPOV and while you edit here, it's the water you and I both swim in. Read it carefully, again -- all of it. Especially the bits about writing for the enemy.  

'''FT2''': Wikipedia has its own perspective. It's not post modern or relative. It's called NPOV and while you edit here, it's the [[water]] you and I both swim in. Read it carefully, again -- all of it. Especially the bits about writing for the enemy.  

'''Flavius''': Last, did you do as I suggested long ago and look up how genuine pseudosciences such as Homeopathy are represented in Wikipedia? I think you should. Try to understand why they are written as they are. What of the Homeopathy article? How did you distinguish Homeopathy as a "genuine pseudoscience" and NLP -- by implication -- as non-genuine psuedoscience? Using what criteria? Drenth and Levelt both regard NLP as a pseudoscience. Don't you think Levelt -- the director of the Max Planck Institute of Psycholingusitics -- can distinguish genuine science from bunkum? flavius 03:54, 20 November 2005 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=28798929]

'''Flavius''': Last, did you do as I suggested long ago and look up how genuine pseudosciences such as Homeopathy are represented in Wikipedia? I think you should. Try to understand why they are written as they are. What of the Homeopathy article? How did you distinguish Homeopathy as a "genuine pseudoscience" and NLP -- by implication -- as non-genuine psuedoscience? Using what criteria? Drenth and Levelt both regard NLP as a pseudoscience. Don't you think Levelt -- the director of the Max Planck Institute of Psycholingusitics -- can distinguish genuine science from bunkum? flavius 03:54, 20 November 2005 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=28798929]

GregA. Even the original goals of NLP are unclear. The only thing that I can find that unites all schools of NLP is the theory (and it is a theory) that memory and experience is encoded neurologically in terms of the Representational Systems (VAKOG) and their submodalities. Many of the other facets of NLP (PRS, cognitive strategies, submodality based patterns eg. Swish, eye accessing cues, sensory predicates) flow out of this central theory. This central theory remains untouched (and unchallenged) in Grinder's New Code and in Bandler's "Technologies" (NHR, DHE, NS). It is also present in Dilt's and James' conception of NLP. Stipulating that "NLP" refers to that NLP that existed between 1972-1979 (as Comaze has done) is entirely arbitrary. NLP is a post-modernist pastiche. As per post-modernism NLP is what people say is NLP. There is no set of scope defining principles within NLP that allow one to differentiate NLP from non-NLP. NLPs scope and limits are undefined. This is consistent with its categorisation as a pseudoscience by numerous experts. NLP practice is divorced from the practice of empirical verification, its theorising is not substantiated with reference to empirical evidence, it doesn't exploit the body of knowledge of established disciplines and its theoretical basis is actively denied to exist by many proponents. All of the means of discipline demarcation won't work. Grinder's pontification in Whispering, in his corerspondence to Hall regarding NeuroSemantics, and on the Whispering forum regarding what is and isn't NLP is vacuous and predicated entirely on his authority. Grinder attempts by mere fiat to define NLP. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 01:11, 24 November 2005 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=29099077]

GregA. Even the original goals of NLP are unclear. The only thing that I can find that unites all schools of NLP is the theory (and it is a theory) that memory and experience is encoded neurologically in terms of the Representational Systems (VAKOG) and their submodalities. Many of the other facets of NLP (PRS, cognitive strategies, submodality based patterns eg. Swish, eye accessing cues, sensory predicates) flow out of this central theory. This central theory remains untouched (and unchallenged) in Grinder's New Code and in Bandler's "Technologies" (NHR, DHE, NS). It is also present in Dilt's and James' conception of NLP. Stipulating that "NLP" refers to that NLP that existed between 1972-1979 (as Comaze has done) is entirely arbitrary. NLP is a post-modernist pastiche. As per post-modernism NLP is what people say is NLP. There is no set of scope defining principles within NLP that allow one to differentiate NLP from non-NLP. NLPs scope and limits are undefined. This is consistent with its categorisation as a pseudoscience by numerous experts. NLP practice is divorced from the practice of empirical verification, its theorising is not substantiated with reference to empirical evidence, it doesn't exploit the body of knowledge of established disciplines and its theoretical basis is actively denied to exist by many proponents. All of the means of discipline demarcation won't work. Grinder's pontification in Whispering, in his corerspondence to Hall regarding NeuroSemantics, and on the Whispering forum regarding what is and isn't NLP is vacuous and predicated entirely on his authority. Grinder attempts by mere fiat to define NLP. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 01:11, 24 November 2005 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=29099077]

Comaze. I don't think its appropriate to describe NLP in terms of "epistemology". NLP is not a branch of epistemology (I've yet to find any reference to NLP in any epistemology text). Further, it does not have ''an'' epistomology. Grinder makes allusions to epistemological concepts but this is far from having an epistemology. NLP "modelling" cannot be justifiably characterised as an epistomology. It is a methodology with a set of epistemological assumptions and it is neither a unique method of inquiry or theory of knowledge. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 02:43, 25 November 2005 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=29179999]

Comaze. I don't think its appropriate to describe NLP in terms of "epistemology". NLP is not a branch of epistemology (I've yet to find any reference to NLP in any epistemology text). Further, it does not have ''an'' epistomology. Grinder makes allusions to epistemological concepts but this is far from having an epistemology. NLP "modelling" cannot be justifiably characterised as an epistomology. It is a methodology with a set of epistemological assumptions and it is neither a unique method of [[inquiry]] or theory of knowledge. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 02:43, 25 November 2005 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=29179999]

If Grinder had anything serious to say about epistemology his name would appear in epistemology texts. I can find no such reference. What exactly is Grinder's contribution to epistemology? From my reading of Whispering he appears to be appealing to Representationalism or Idealism (which one is unclear). [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 09:22, 26 November 2005 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=29274826]

If Grinder had anything serious to say about epistemology his name would appear in epistemology texts. I can find no such reference. What exactly is Grinder's contribution to epistemology? From my reading of Whispering he appears to be appealing to Representationalism or Idealism (which one is unclear). [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 09:22, 26 November 2005 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=29274826]

== Quarrelling with cranks ==

== Quarrelling with cranks ==

I don't comprehend the significance of your apparently random capitalisation. When you randomnly capitalise and mis-spell you come across as unhinged. I don't need to explain your claim anymore than I need to explain the existence of gnomes. The use of NLP in the US Army is a figment of your imagination or the imagination of one of your NLP mentors. The US Army conducted extensive research into a range of human performance technologies that may be of use to the army. NLP was included in the investigation. The researchers even interviewed Bandler. The US Army unequivocally rejected NLP on the grounds that there is no evidence that it works. Refer Druckman, D. & Swets, J. (1988). Enhancing Human Performance. Washington, DC: National Academy Press. and Swets, J. & Bjork R. (1990) Enhancing human performance. An evaluation of "new age" techniques considered by the U.S. Army. Psychological Science, 1,, 85-96. The apparent efficacy of NLP techniques on stage, in seminars and in some clinical situations is explained by a "psycho shaman effect" proposed by Tye (1994): "the psycho shaman effect is a collection of already-existing, well understood and accepted ideas. Specifically, it has three components: cognitive dissonance, placebo effect and therapist charisma". It is you that is exhibiting religious fervour. There is no evidence that NLP works yet you fervently announce your faith. "I argue that the proof is evident for anyone is open enough to making the observation", you say. Well this isn't an argument it's an assertion, it's a verbalisation of your emoting. What are we to do with it? If the "proof is evident" then why is it that NLP has failed most empirical testing it has been subjected to? Are you suggesting that Sharpley (1997), Swets & Bjork (1990), Dixon et al (1986), Baddeley (1989), Ellich et al (1985) and Melvin & Miller (1988) would have obtained confirmatory results if only they were more "open"? How so? One of the weaknesses of human reasoning is that it is vulnerable to a confirmation bias (Gilovich, 1993): you will look for and overvalue what confirms your beliefs and simultaneously ignore and undervalue anything that contradicts those beliefs. You can't prove that all swans are white simply by seeking white swans. You must instead seek black swans. Are you then looking only for the white swans of NLP? Confirmation is ''not'' the basis of knowledge acquisition, falsification is. If I find 100 smokers that are older than 80 years have I demonstrated that smoking will enable you to live beyond the average life expectancy? Your logic would suggest so. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 11:23, 15 December 2005 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=31456106]

I don't comprehend the significance of your apparently random capitalisation. When you randomnly capitalise and mis-spell you come across as unhinged. I don't need to explain your claim anymore than I need to explain the existence of gnomes. The use of NLP in the US Army is a figment of your imagination or the imagination of one of your NLP mentors. The US Army conducted extensive research into a range of human performance technologies that may be of use to the army. NLP was included in the investigation. The researchers even interviewed Bandler. The US Army unequivocally rejected NLP on the grounds that there is no evidence that it works. Refer Druckman, D. & Swets, J. (1988). Enhancing Human Performance. Washington, DC: National Academy Press. and Swets, J. & Bjork R. (1990) Enhancing human performance. An evaluation of "new age" techniques considered by the U.S. Army. Psychological Science, 1,, 85-96. The apparent efficacy of NLP techniques on stage, in seminars and in some clinical situations is explained by a "psycho shaman effect" proposed by Tye (1994): "the psycho shaman effect is a collection of already-existing, well understood and accepted ideas. Specifically, it has three components: cognitive dissonance, placebo effect and therapist charisma". It is you that is exhibiting religious fervour. There is no evidence that NLP works yet you fervently announce your faith. "I argue that the proof is evident for anyone is open enough to making the observation", you say. Well this isn't an argument it's an assertion, it's a verbalisation of your emoting. What are we to do with it? If the "proof is evident" then why is it that NLP has failed most empirical testing it has been subjected to? Are you suggesting that Sharpley (1997), Swets & Bjork (1990), Dixon et al (1986), Baddeley (1989), Ellich et al (1985) and Melvin & Miller (1988) would have obtained confirmatory results if only they were more "open"? How so? One of the weaknesses of human reasoning is that it is vulnerable to a confirmation bias (Gilovich, 1993): you will look for and overvalue what confirms your beliefs and simultaneously ignore and undervalue anything that contradicts those beliefs. You can't prove that all swans are white simply by seeking white swans. You must instead seek black swans. Are you then looking only for the white swans of NLP? Confirmation is ''not'' the basis of knowledge acquisition, falsification is. If I find 100 smokers that are older than 80 years have I demonstrated that smoking will enable you to live beyond the average life expectancy? Your [[logic]] would suggest so. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 11:23, 15 December 2005 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=31456106]

Akulkis/Aaron, you are ill-informed about science in general and psychology in particular. Freudian psychoanalysis is dead in both psychology and psychiatry in the English-speaking world and it has been so for many years. Since the 1960s clinical psychology has been dominated by the cognitive and behavioral therapies, neither of which are concerned with patient history and are typically delivered as several 45-minute sessions including progress tracking and follow-up. Academic and research psychology also has had little connection with Freudian psychoanalysis since the 1950s. Modern psychology is "Experimental Psychology" as advanced by Hans Eysenck and Cyril Burt. Freudian psychoanalysis has a stronger association with psychiatry and its heavy influence upon psychiatry continued until the late 1970s when advances were made in neurology and pharmacology. Since that time pscyhiatry has been moving towards a bilogical model of mental illness discarding its psychoanalytic roots. Most psychiatrists today have a biological orientation in the treatment of mental illness. Your concept of psychology and psychiatry is outdated by at least 30 years. NLP -- like all of the other fringe therapies of the era such Gestalt, Primal Scream, TA -- was a response to the "shrink culture" in the North America of the 1960s and 1970s. That is the context of Bandler's tired pun "Sickman Fraud" and his assuming of a german accented English when he talks about psychology and psychiatry in his early seminars. Unfortunately Bandler is stuck somewhere in the 1970s and even in his recent seminars he still talks as if Freudian psychoanalysis is the dominant model of mind within psychology and psychiatry. Uneducated people like you then pick up on this and repeat it as you are doing. Some of NLPs hypothesis are testable and those that have been tested have been found false and useless. That is the brutal truth you are vehemently opposing using anecdote. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 05:36, 16 December 2005 (UTC)  

Akulkis/Aaron, you are ill-informed about science in general and psychology in particular. Freudian psychoanalysis is dead in both psychology and psychiatry in the English-speaking world and it has been so for many years. Since the 1960s clinical psychology has been dominated by the cognitive and behavioral therapies, neither of which are concerned with patient history and are typically delivered as several 45-minute sessions including progress tracking and follow-up. Academic and research psychology also has had little connection with Freudian psychoanalysis since the 1950s. Modern psychology is "Experimental Psychology" as advanced by Hans Eysenck and Cyril Burt. Freudian psychoanalysis has a stronger association with psychiatry and its heavy influence upon psychiatry continued until the late 1970s when advances were made in neurology and pharmacology. Since that time pscyhiatry has been moving towards a bilogical model of mental illness discarding its psychoanalytic roots. Most psychiatrists today have a biological orientation in the treatment of mental illness. Your concept of psychology and psychiatry is outdated by at least 30 years. NLP -- like all of the other fringe therapies of the era such Gestalt, Primal Scream, TA -- was a response to the "shrink culture" in the North America of the 1960s and 1970s. That is the context of Bandler's tired pun "Sickman Fraud" and his assuming of a german accented English when he talks about psychology and psychiatry in his early seminars. Unfortunately Bandler is stuck somewhere in the 1970s and even in his recent seminars he still talks as if Freudian psychoanalysis is the dominant model of mind within psychology and psychiatry. Uneducated people like you then pick up on this and repeat it as you are doing. Some of NLPs hypothesis are testable and those that have been tested have been found false and useless. That is the brutal truth you are vehemently opposing using anecdote. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 05:36, 16 December 2005 (UTC)  

That was me Comaze before I created an account, I point that out below for the sake of transparency. In one of his seminars Bandler claimed he submitted a doctoral thesis at the USF and was an awarded a PhD from their. He said that we had difficulty finding where to submit his dissertation because he had cut soe many classes. This sent alarm bells ringing in my head -- any one that knows anything about postgraduate study knows that the amount of classes fall the higher you progress. There are classes when you undertsake a PhD, there are only occassional meetings with your supervisor. So I wrote an email to the USF Alumni Society to ask them if a they had ever awarded a doctorate -- honorary or earned -- to a Richard Wayne Bandler. The officer replied that they had no such record. I then went to Proquest\UMI dissertation index -- I found Grinder, he did submit a thesis titled "On Deletion Phenomena" IIRC and he was awarded a doctorate. Bandler does not appear in the Proquest\UMI dissertation index. The email counts as original research and although I can supply the response complete with headers to anyone that's interested it's not suitable for Wikipedia verification puproses. A link to the Proquest\UMI dissertation index -- which I have included in the Bandler article -- should be ok. If Bandler has a doctorate it is neither from a North American university nor is it earned. I could no detail about Bandler's honrary doctorate except rumour that t came from a Continetal European university. Any attempt to solicit detail on alt.psychology.nlp is met with an avalanche of abusive replies. Attempting to verify any of Bandler's claims is strictly ''verboten'' -- the worshippers don't like their idols being tarnished. Regarding Bandler's undergraduate and graduate qualification IIRC he attempted to submit the manuscript of Magic I to the psychology department of USC as his master's thesis. It was rejected because it wasn't entirely his work. He re-worked it and submitted it and was awarded an MA in "Theoretical Psychology". The marketing angle that B&G pursued in promoting NLP wasn't compatible with one of the inventors being a psychology graduate since NLP was touted as a revolutionary breakthrough something altogether different that came from ''outside'' of psychology by two people that supposedly knew nothing of the fields. In his early seminars I have heard Bandler refer to himself as a physicist, an information scientist, a computer programmer, and a mathematician. In "Bandler Doing Bandler" I think he's an "information scientist", in one of his NHR recordings he's physicist (with a special interest in optics, which is the leadin to his pontifications about holographic memoey) and in one of his DHE recordings (IIRC) he's a computer programmer. Can we remove the reference to him as being a mathematician, he is no such thing and their is no evidence that he even took a single unit in math at university. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 04:13, 17 December 2005 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=31695516]

That was me Comaze before I created an account, I point that out below for the sake of transparency. In one of his seminars Bandler claimed he submitted a doctoral thesis at the USF and was an awarded a PhD from their. He said that we had difficulty finding where to submit his dissertation because he had cut soe many classes. This sent alarm bells ringing in my head -- any one that knows anything about postgraduate study knows that the amount of classes fall the higher you progress. There are classes when you undertsake a PhD, there are only occassional meetings with your supervisor. So I wrote an email to the USF Alumni Society to ask them if a they had ever awarded a doctorate -- honorary or earned -- to a Richard Wayne Bandler. The officer replied that they had no such record. I then went to Proquest\UMI dissertation index -- I found Grinder, he did submit a thesis titled "On Deletion Phenomena" IIRC and he was awarded a doctorate. Bandler does not appear in the Proquest\UMI dissertation index. The email counts as original research and although I can supply the response complete with headers to anyone that's interested it's not suitable for Wikipedia verification puproses. A link to the Proquest\UMI dissertation index -- which I have included in the Bandler article -- should be ok. If Bandler has a doctorate it is neither from a North American university nor is it earned. I could no detail about Bandler's honrary doctorate except rumour that t came from a Continetal European university. Any attempt to solicit detail on alt.psychology.nlp is met with an avalanche of abusive replies. Attempting to verify any of Bandler's claims is strictly ''verboten'' -- the worshippers don't like their idols being tarnished. Regarding Bandler's undergraduate and graduate qualification IIRC he attempted to submit the manuscript of Magic I to the psychology department of USC as his master's thesis. It was rejected because it wasn't entirely his work. He re-worked it and submitted it and was awarded an MA in "Theoretical Psychology". The marketing angle that B&G pursued in promoting NLP wasn't compatible with one of the inventors being a psychology graduate since NLP was touted as a revolutionary breakthrough something altogether different that came from ''outside'' of psychology by two people that supposedly knew nothing of the fields. In his early seminars I have heard Bandler refer to himself as a physicist, an information scientist, a computer programmer, and a mathematician. In "Bandler Doing Bandler" I think he's an "information scientist", in one of his NHR recordings he's physicist (with a special interest in optics, which is the leadin to his pontifications about holographic memoey) and in one of his DHE recordings (IIRC) he's a computer programmer. Can we remove the reference to him as being a mathematician, he is no such thing and their is no evidence that he even took a single unit in math at university. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 04:13, 17 December 2005 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=31695516]

== Is NLP a cult? ==

== Is NLP a cult? ==

Comments by Flavius  

Comments by Flavius  

Thanks for the reference Comaze. I read the paper and it doesn't present anything new or conclusive. I don't think its inclusion will add balance as it is inconclusive. The only noteworthy conclusions were the following: "In outlining the development of NLP all articles, with the exception of Milne, stress the involvement of Bandler and Grinder. It is interesting to note the degree to which NLP is personalized in connection with these two individuals, with far less emphasis being accorded to either the origins of NLP or its subsequent development by others" (p.3); "[t]he extent to which NLP is personalized in connection with the originators Bandler and Grinder is apparent, and the absence of any substantial acknowledgement of the theoretical underpinnings comes through" (p.4); and "[o]ther features are striking about the research. Firstly the relative lack of it, compared to the almost cult following that NLP has achieved, mainly in the USA but latterly in the UK. There appears to have been an absence of research into NLP in the UK. There are however a great many articles and books written by those who use NLP and clearly believe it to be of great value in their work." (p.6) Dowlen identifies those traits of NLP that position it as pseudoscience, New Age and cult-like. These traits -- viz. personalisation of NLP in connection with B&G, failure to fully acknowledge derivative aspects of NLP theory and practice, incongruity between fanatical following and dearth of supportive evidence and empahsis on promotion over investigation -- are connected and are to be found in Scientology, Silva Mind Control, est and other psycho-cults. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 04:03, 7 January 2006 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=3420268]

Thanks for the reference Comaze. I read the paper and it doesn't present anything new or conclusive. I don't think its inclusion will add balance as it is inconclusive. The only noteworthy conclusions were the following: "In outlining the development of NLP all articles, with the exception of Milne, stress the involvement of Bandler and Grinder. It is interesting to note the degree to which NLP is personalized in connection with these two individuals, with far less emphasis being accorded to either the origins of NLP or its subsequent development by others" (p.3); "[t]he extent to which NLP is personalized in connection with the originators Bandler and Grinder is apparent, and the absence of any substantial acknowledgement of the theoretical underpinnings comes through" (p.4); and "[o]ther features are striking about the research. Firstly the relative lack of it, compared to the almost cult following that NLP has achieved, mainly in the [[Directory:United States|USA]] but latterly in the [[Directory:United Kingdom|UK]]. There appears to have been an absence of research into NLP in the UK. There are however a great many articles and books written by those who use NLP and clearly believe it to be of great value in their work." (p.6) Dowlen identifies those traits of NLP that position it as pseudoscience, New Age and cult-like. These traits -- viz. personalisation of NLP in connection with B&G, failure to fully acknowledge derivative aspects of NLP theory and practice, incongruity between fanatical following and dearth of supportive evidence and empahsis on promotion over investigation -- are connected and are to be found in Scientology, Silva Mind Control, est and other psycho-cults. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 04:03, 7 January 2006 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=3420268]

== Alleged ''Frogs'' Quote ==  

== Alleged ''Frogs'' Quote ==  

    

    

Methods (c) and (d) involved what can only be described as a "half-arsed" literature review. Dowlen's reviews are selective and his selection criteria are not revealed.   

Methods (c) and (d) involved what can only be described as a "half-arsed" literature review. Dowlen's reviews are selective and his selection criteria are not revealed.   

    

    

In ''On Bullshit'' -- in which Princeton Univeristy philosophy professor Harry G. Frankfurt provides a (serious) philosophical analysis of the notion of ''bullshit'' -- the author makes a distinction between the ''liar'' and the ''bullshitter''. According to Frankfurt, "the fact that about himself that the ''liar'' hides is that he is attempting to lead us away from a correct apprehension of reality; we are not to know that he wants us to believe somthing he supposes to be false. The fact about himself that the ''bullshitter'' hides, on the other hand, is that the truth value of his statements are of no central interest to him; what we are not to understand is that his intention is neither to report the truth nor to conceal it. This does not mean that his speech is anarchically impulsive, but that the motive guiding and controlling it is unconcerned with how the things about which he speaks truly are." (pp.54-5, italics added) Dowlen thus is a bullshitter and his paper is bullshit. It isn't a serious study. If Dowlen revealed the content of his paper over dinner I'd find his conversation interesting and engaging and the degree of rigour would have been appropriate. As a published investigation of NLP vis-a-vis management learning it cannot be taken seriously. Bullshit can't be fruitfully critiqued whereas a lie can. More from Frankfurt, '[t]elling a lie is an act with a sharp focus. It is designed to insert a particular falsehood at a specific point in a set or system of beliefs, in order to avoid the consequences of having that point occupied by the truth. This requires a degree of craftmanship, in which the teller of the lie submits to objective constraints imposed by what he takes to be the truth...On the other hand, a person who undertakes to bullshit his way through has much more freedom. His focus is panoramic rather than particular...it is more expansive and independent, with more spacious opportunities for improvisation, color, and imaginative play. This is less a matter of craft than of art. Hence the familiar notion of the "bullshit artist" (pp.51-53) Dowlen is then a "bullshit artist"'. Dowlen is a management consultant -- a role bullshit artists gravitate towards -- and he is employed at the UK Social Services Department, which like all large bureaucracies, is a bullshitter's stronghold. A perfect match. Bullshitting is the management consultants stock-in-trade. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 10:45, 10 January 2006 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=34605047]

In ''On Bullshit'' -- in which Princeton Univeristy philosophy professor Harry G. Frankfurt provides a (serious) philosophical analysis of the notion of ''bullshit'' -- the author makes a distinction between the ''liar'' and the ''bullshitter''. According to Frankfurt, "the fact that about himself that the ''liar'' hides is that he is attempting to lead us away from a correct apprehension of reality; we are not to know that he wants us to believe somthing he supposes to be false. The fact about himself that the ''bullshitter'' hides, on the other hand, is that the truth value of his statements are of no central interest to him; what we are not to understand is that his intention is neither to report the truth nor to conceal it. This does not mean that his speech is anarchically impulsive, but that the motive guiding and controlling it is unconcerned with how the things about which he speaks truly are." (pp.54-5, italics added) Dowlen thus is a bullshitter and his paper is bullshit. It isn't a serious study. If Dowlen revealed the content of his paper over dinner I'd find his conversation interesting and engaging and the degree of rigour would have been appropriate. As a published investigation of NLP vis-a-vis management learning it cannot be taken seriously. Bullshit can't be fruitfully critiqued whereas a lie can. More from Frankfurt, '[t]elling a lie is an act with a sharp focus. It is designed to insert a particular falsehood at a specific point in a set or system of beliefs, in order to avoid the consequences of having that point occupied by the truth. This requires a degree of craftmanship, in which the teller of the lie submits to objective constraints imposed by what he takes to be the truth...On the other hand, a person who undertakes to bullshit his way through has much more freedom. His focus is panoramic rather than particular...it is more expansive and independent, with more spacious opportunities for improvisation, color, and imaginative play. This is less a matter of craft than of art. Hence the familiar notion of the "bullshit artist" (pp.51-53) Dowlen is then a "bullshit artist"'. Dowlen is a management consultant -- a role bullshit artists gravitate towards -- and he is employed at the UK Social Services Department, which like all large bureaucracies, is a bullshitter's stronghold. A perfect match. Bullshitting is the management consultants stock-in-trade. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 10:45, 10 January 2006 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=34605047]

Are you suggesting that human behavior can't be studied experimentally? If you are then you have a "tough brief". Social psychology has yielded many useful and valid results using an experimental approach. Are you familiar with at least the classical papers in social psychology such as Milgram (1963), Darley & Latané (1968), Nisbett & Bellows (1977), Festinger & Carlsmith (1959)? There is contention within psychology (in some areas) and psycho-cults prosper because we know very little about the brain. NLP is parasitic on our (comparative) ignorance regarding the brain. Physics -- the field that defines "hard science" -- was once a branch of philosophy. During this pre-mathematical and pre-experimental phase there was much dispute amongst "natural philosophers" about the fundamental concepts in introductory physics. It was not the nature of the subject matter that produced this contention it was instead the ignorance of the physicists of the time. The hypotheses of eccentrics versus epicycles is no longer an issue of contention amongst astronomers, chemists no longer argue about "phlogiston", and physicians are no divided about the role of the heart. This is the pattern in the history of science. The psychology of the future will be much more biological in orientation than it currently is, it will be better informed about neurophysiology and genetics. Also, you are overstating the division within psychology and misunderstanding th trends within psychology. I don't know of a University in Australia whose department of psychology ''doesn't'' teach experimental psychology. Furthermore, all of the psychology departments are heavily influenced by physiology. The trend in psychology is towards biological psychology. Psychology syllabi are throughly infused with statistical methods and research design (it is impossible to get a major in psychology without studying statistics). Psychology has rid itself of its pseudoscientific heritage -- psychoanalysis (Freud) and analytical psychology (Jung) are pretty much dead. There are no major debates about method within psychology. Modern psychology is experimental psychology. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 11:07, 13 January 2006 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=35007412]

Are you suggesting that human behavior can't be studied experimentally? If you are then you have a "tough brief". Social psychology has yielded many useful and valid results using an experimental approach. Are you familiar with at least the classical papers in social psychology such as Milgram (1963), Darley & Latané (1968), Nisbett & Bellows (1977), Festinger & Carlsmith (1959)? There is contention within psychology (in some areas) and psycho-cults prosper because we know very little about the brain. NLP is parasitic on our (comparative) ignorance regarding the brain. Physics -- the field that defines "hard science" -- was once a branch of philosophy. During this pre-mathematical and pre-experimental phase there was much dispute amongst "natural philosophers" about the fundamental concepts in introductory physics. It was not the nature of the subject matter that produced this contention it was instead the ignorance of the physicists of the time. The hypotheses of eccentrics versus epicycles is no longer an issue of contention amongst astronomers, chemists no longer argue about "phlogiston", and physicians are no divided about the role of the heart. This is the pattern in the history of science. The psychology of the future will be much more biological in orientation than it currently is, it will be better informed about neurophysiology and genetics. Also, you are overstating the division within psychology and misunderstanding th trends within psychology. I don't know of a University in Australia whose department of psychology ''doesn't'' teach experimental psychology. Furthermore, all of the psychology departments are heavily influenced by physiology. The trend in psychology is towards biological psychology. Psychology syllabi are throughly infused with statistical methods and research design (it is impossible to get a major in psychology without studying statistics). Psychology has rid itself of its pseudoscientific heritage -- psychoanalysis (Freud) and analytical psychology (Jung) are pretty much dead. There are no major debates about method within psychology. Modern psychology is experimental psychology. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 11:07, 13 January 2006 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=35007412]

== Ockham's Razor ==

== What was "Occum's Razor"? ==

I concur with flavius. If you don't have multiple citations for each assertion the case against NLP will look weak and will create an impression of inconclusiveness. QED. It's a bit shakey how many of the citations will actually make the notability grade all by themselves. If we were to apply Occums Razor to conclusions based on simple citation standards we'd end up having to rewrite the entire article proclaiming the inconclusiveness of skeptic concerns. Perhaps we'd even have to concede skepticism to a smaller section of the article? Again... QED. Peace. [[User:Metta Bubble|Metta Bubble]] 05:42, 13 January 2006 (UTC)  

I concur with flavius. If you don't have multiple citations for each assertion the case against NLP will look weak and will create an impression of inconclusiveness. QED. It's a bit shakey how many of the citations will actually make the notability grade all by themselves. If we were to apply Occums Razor to conclusions based on simple citation standards we'd end up having to rewrite the entire article proclaiming the inconclusiveness of skeptic concerns. Perhaps we'd even have to concede skepticism to a smaller section of the article? Again... QED. Peace. [[User:Metta Bubble|Metta Bubble]] 05:42, 13 January 2006 (UTC)  

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=35325297]

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=35325297]

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=35334031

The term "model" is ambiguous in conventional English usage. In science the term model finds two common uses: (a) to describe a hypothesis that has been demonstrated to be true under a well-defined set of circumstances eg. Hooke's Law of Elasticity is in fact a model because it holds for only some materials under certain loading conditions; and (b) a simulation (in software, sets of equations, in miniature etc), eg. an albegraic epidemological model of the spread of HIV. NLP meets neither definition. Calling NLP a model elevates it epistemologically beyond where it should be (determined with reference to explanatory power, predictive power and efficacy). NLP is a hodge-podege of conjecture, speculation, mysticism, obscurantism, outdated and/or oversimplified science and ritual. flavius 00:26, 16 January 2006 (UTC)  [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=35334031]

The term "model" is ambiguous in conventional English usage. In science the term model finds two common uses: (a) to describe a hypothesis that has been demonstrated to be true under a well-defined set of circumstances eg. Hooke's Law of Elasticity is in fact a model because it holds for only some materials under certain loading conditions; and (b) a simulation (in software, sets of equations, in miniature etc), eg. an albegraic epidemological model of the spread of HIV. NLP meets neither definition. Calling NLP a model elevates it epistemologically beyond where it should be (determined with reference to explanatory power, predictive power and efficacy). NLP is a hodge-podege of conjecture, speculation, mysticism, obscurantism, outdated and/or oversimplified science and ritual. flavius 00:26, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

"TG has developed through a number of versions, each succeeding the other. In his 1957 book Syntactic Structures, Chomsky provided only a partial sketch of a very simple type of transformational grammar. This proved to be inadequate, and, in his 1965 book Aspects of the Theory of Syntax, Chomsky proposed a very different, and much more complete, version. This version is variously known as the Aspects model or as the Standard Theory. All textbooks of TG published before 1980 (and a few of those published more recently) present what is essentially the Standard Theory, sometimes with a few additions from later work. Around 1968 the Standard Theory came under attack from a group of younger linguists who hoped to equate deep structure, previously a purely syntactic level of representation, with the semantic structure of a sentence (its meaning). This programme, called Generative Semantics, led to the positing of ever more abstract underlying structures for sentences; it proved unworkable, and it finally collapsed. Around the same time, two mathematical linguists demonstrated that standard TG was so enormously powerful that it could, in principle, describe anything which could be described at all—a potentially catastrophic result, since the whole point of a theory of grammar is to tell us what is possible in languages and what is not possible. Yet these Peters—Ritchie results suggested that TG was placing no constraints at all on what the grammar of a human language could be like. Chomsky responded to all this in the early 1970s by introducing a number of changes to his framework; the result became known as the Extended Standard Theory, or EST. By the late 1970s further changes had led to a radically different version dubbed the Revised Extended Standard Theory, or REST. Among the major innovations of the REST were the introduction of traces, invisible flags marking the former positions of elements which had been moved, a reduction in the number of distinct transformations from dozens to just two, and a switch of attention away from the transformations themselves to the constraints which applied to them. But Chomsky continued to develop his ideas, and in 1981 he published Lectures on Government and Binding; this book swept away much of the apparatus of the earlier transformational theories in favour of a dramatically different, and far more complex, approach called Government-andBinding Theory, or GB. GB retains exactly one transformation, and, in spite of the obvious continuity between the new framework and its predecessors, the name 'transformational grammar' is not usually applied to GB or to its even more recent successor, the Minimalist Programme. Hence, for purposes of linguistic research, transformational grammar may now be regarded as dead, though its influence has been enormous, and its successors are maximally prominent. (from pp. 320-1 Trask, R. L. (1999) Key Concepts in Language and Linguistics, Routledge)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming"

See also "My carefully considered and well earned aversion to Noam Chomsky"[http://pedantry.blogspot.com/2003_07_20_pedantry_archive.html] and [http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/23/sept04/keith.htm] [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 13:48, 16 January 2006 (UTC)  

  :::::See also "My carefully considered and well earned aversion to Noam Chomsky"[http://pedantry.blogspot.com/2003_07_20_pedantry_archive.html] and [http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/23/sept04/keith.htm] [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 13:48, 16 January 2006 (UTC)  

Avoid personal remarks Flavius. Please take care to avoid personal attacks against Wikipedia users -- in reference to your comments:

Avoid personal remarks

Flavius. Please take care to avoid personal attacks against Wikipedia users -- in reference to your comments:

"Again you are parading your ignorance." [7]  

"Again you are parading your ignorance." [7]  

Cynicism. flavius 05:05, 17 January 2006 (UTC)  

Cynicism. flavius 05:05, 17 January 2006 (UTC)  

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Flavius_vanillus"

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Flavius_vanillus&diff=prev&oldid=35502912]

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=36893783

== Dianetics and NLP ==

Comaze, I think you're being mischevious (again). Edwards' position is widely held, for this reason it is not necessary (and misleding) to attribute it specifically to him. It is apparent that you are attempting to create the illusion of isolation and idiosyncracy, painting Edwards' view as the lonely voice of a eccentric contrarian. As HeadleyDown correctly points out, that view is shared by many experts, it is the consensus view. We don't need a third party opinion on this. The easy solution (if we are to accept your view that there is a problem) is to rephrase the statement so that it bears no resemblance to Edwards' whilst retaining the content and embellishing it with the numerous references that argue the same point. Clearly, you and GregA are unwilling to accept NLPs status as marginalia in the history of ideas. You and GregA reject ''all'' negative expert opinion regarding NLP ''wholesale''. This is fanatical, cultish and irrational behaviour. Yours and GregA's position is fundamentally emotive and disconnected from reality (yes John Grinder there is ''a'' reality) that is why your dispute is non-justiciable. It is a matter of fact that a minority of universities and colleges teach NLP. It is a matter of fact that a minority of psychologists, psychiatrists, nurses, social workers and pastors practice NLP. It is a matter of fact that a minority of all professionals (in all categories) use NLP. It is a matter of fact that a minority of the human population have had training in NLP. It is a matter of fact that most topic experts (psychologists, psychiatrists, linguists, philosophers and neurologists) that have researched NLP have concluded against it. It is a matter of fact that most topic experts (psychologists, psychiatrists, linguists, philosophers and neurologists) have either not heard of NLP or if they have regard it as bunkum. It is a matter of fact that NLP was written off in the early 1990s as not worthy of any further research. It is a matter of fact that NLP often appears amongst a constellation of New Age concerns in trainings, books, therapies and personal interests. NLP is not an "epistemology", it hasn't got anything to do with philosophy, maths or logic, it isn't applied psychology, it isn't science, it isn't art, it isn't craft, it isn't a "bridge between empriricism and rationalism", it isn't ''the'' study of subjective experience, it isn't a means of accelerated learning, it isn't the tip of an emerging paradigm shift. It's just a great big steaming pile of Californian New Age, Human Potential horse shit that has become big business. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 03:40, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

The above article text mentioned by Akulkis does not seem too problematic to me, as the engram is much different in NLP than in neurology. The Scientology associations do seem a little over the top. The research and reviews alone will do here, and we have plenty of them. BTW, lets try to avoid personal attacks, even against other people who use them.'''[[User:Voice of All|<font color="blue">Voice</font><font color="darkblue"> of </font><font color="black">All</font>]]'''^{[[user_talk:Voice_of_All|<font color="blue">T</font>]]|[[Special:Emailuser/Voice of All|@]]|[[WP:EA|<font color="darkgreen">ESP]]</font>} 13:14, 30 January 2006 (UTC)  

The above article text mentioned by Akulkis does not seem too problematic to me, as the engram is much different in NLP than in neurology. The Scientology associations do seem a little over the top. The research and reviews alone will do here, and we have plenty of them. BTW, lets try to avoid personal attacks, even against other people who use them.'''[[User:Voice of All|<font color="blue">Voice</font><font color="darkblue"> of </font><font color="black">All</font>]]'''^{[[user_talk:Voice_of_All|<font color="blue">T</font>]]|[[Special:Emailuser/Voice of All|@]]|[[WP:EA|<font color="darkgreen">ESP]]</font>} 13:14, 30 January 2006 (UTC)  

(UTC)  ::::::Should we remove the unnecessary repeats of Dianetics/scientology? --[[User:Comaze|Comaze]] 00:59, 31 January 2006 (UTC)  

(UTC)   

 

Should we remove the unnecessary repeats of Dianetics/scientology? --[[User:Comaze|Comaze]] 00:59, 31 January 2006 (UTC)  

    

    

  :::::::Hold your horses. I'm currently (re-)reading ''Dianetics'' and you'll be suprised about the similarities between Dianetics and NLP. Dianetics contains an explicit understanding of sensorially encoded memory, the characteristics of those encodings in terms of their sense-specific qualities (ie. submodalities), "reverie" (i.e. light trance), the notion of a "time track" (not unlike the NLP time line), an explicit appeal to instrumentalist epistemology, an explicit understanding of associated/dissociated memory, it's replete with IT metaphors and jargon (just like NLP) and the auditing process itself bears numerous similarites to VK dissociation, Time Line Therapy, submodality attenuation and collapsing anchors. Lee Lady conjectures the role of CoS as a template for B&G:  

Hold your horses. I'm currently (re-)reading ''Dianetics'' and you'll be suprised about the similarities between Dianetics and NLP. Dianetics contains an explicit understanding of sensorially encoded memory, the characteristics of those encodings in terms of their sense-specific qualities (ie. submodalities), "reverie" (i.e. light trance), the notion of a "time track" (not unlike the NLP time line), an explicit appeal to instrumentalist epistemology, an explicit understanding of associated/dissociated memory, it's replete with IT metaphors and jargon (just like NLP) and the auditing process itself bears numerous similarites to VK dissociation, Time Line Therapy, submodality attenuation and collapsing anchors. Lee Lady conjectures the role of CoS as a template for B&G:  

    

    

  ::::::::For a while, Bandler and Grinder thought that they could turn NLP into a product which could be promoted to the general public for a lot of money. I'm sure that they must have had the examples of L. Ron Hubbard and Werner Erhard in mind. (You have to remember that at this point they had no academic position and were living on the edge of poverty. But of course this sort of attitude certainly didn't endear them to the academic world.) (http://www2.hawaii.edu/~lady/archive/history-3.html)

For a while, Bandler and Grinder thought that they could turn NLP into a product which could be promoted to the general public for a lot of money. I'm sure that they must have had the examples of L. Ron Hubbard and Werner Erhard in mind. (You have to remember that at this point they had no academic position and were living on the edge of poverty. But of course this sort of attitude certainly didn't endear them to the academic world.)[http://www2.hawaii.edu/~lady/archive/history-3.html]

    

    

  :::::::Lady's conjecture is not unusual. Hubbard and Erhardt served as pioneers for the New Age/Human Potential industry. It was my intention to detail these many parallels in this subsection of the discussion page in an effeort to put the myth that NLP has nothing to do with Dianetics to bed. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 02:00, 31 January 2006 (UTC)  

Lady's conjecture is not unusual. Hubbard and Erhardt served as pioneers for the New Age/Human Potential industry. It was my intention to detail these many parallels in this subsection of the discussion page in an effeort to put the myth that NLP has nothing to do with Dianetics to bed. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 02:00, 31 January 2006 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=36893783]

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=37522689

== New Paper Published in Peer-Reviewed Highly Regarded Journal Critical of NLP ==  

== New Paper Published in Peer-Reviewed Highly Regarded Journal Critical of NLP ==  

    

    

  Devilly, Grant J. (2005) "Power Therapies and possible threats to the science of psychology and psychiatry". Australian and New Zealand Journal of Psychiatry 2005; 39:437-445  

Devilly, Grant J. (2005) "Power Therapies and possible threats to the science of psychology and psychiatry". Australian and New Zealand Journal of Psychiatry 2005; 39:437-445  

    

    

  '''ABSTRACT'''  

'''ABSTRACT'''  

    

    

  '''Objective''': Advocates of new therapies frequently make bold claims regarding therapeutic effectiveness, particularly in response to disorders which have been traditionally treatment-refractory. This paper reviews a collection of new therapies collectively self-termed 'The Power Therapies', outlining their proposed procedures and the evidence for and against their use. These therapies are then put to the test for pseudoscientific practice.  

'''Objective''': Advocates of new therapies frequently make bold claims regarding therapeutic effectiveness, particularly in response to disorders which have been traditionally treatment-refractory. This paper reviews a collection of new therapies collectively self-termed 'The Power Therapies', outlining their proposed procedures and the evidence for and against their use. These therapies are then put to the test for pseudoscientific practice.  

    

    

  '''Method''': Therapies were included which self-describe themselves as 'Power Therapies'. Published work searches were conducted on each therapy using Medline and PsychInfo databases for randomized controlled trials assessing their efficacy, except for the case of Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR). Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing has more randomized controlled studies conducted on its efficacy than any other treatment for trauma and thus, previous meta-analyses were evaluated.  

'''Method''': Therapies were included which self-describe themselves as 'Power Therapies'. Published work searches were conducted on each therapy using Medline and PsychInfo databases for randomized controlled trials assessing their efficacy, except for the case of Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR). Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing has more randomized controlled studies conducted on its efficacy than any other treatment for trauma and thus, previous meta-analyses were evaluated.  

    

    

  '''Results and conclusions''': It is concluded that these new therapies have offered no new scientifically valid theories of action, show only non-specific efficacy, show no evidence that they offer substantive improvements to extant psychiatric care, yet display many characteristics consistent with pseudoscience.  

'''Results and conclusions''': It is concluded that these new therapies have offered no new scientifically valid theories of action, show only non-specific efficacy, show no evidence that they offer substantive improvements to extant psychiatric care, yet display many characteristics consistent with pseudoscience.  

    

    

  This paper is significant for several reasons:  

This paper is significant for several reasons:  

  # It represents an answer to Figley's hyperbole on his Traumatic Stress Forum.  

# It represents an answer to Figley's hyperbole on his Traumatic Stress Forum.  

  # The existing criticisms and conclusions regarding NLP are re-iterated (this convergence is important in evaluating earlier research -- pro and con).  

# The existing criticisms and conclusions regarding NLP are re-iterated (this convergence is important in evaluating earlier research -- pro and con).  

  # NLP is characterised as pseudoscience and essentially a commercial venture.  

# NLP is characterised as pseudoscience and essentially a commercial venture.  

  # NLP's status as settled and not worthy of further research is reiterated and it is demonstrated that research has shifted towards the newer "Power Therapies" (EFT, TFT, EMDR, TAT and TIR), which are incidentally advocated and practised by many NLPers.  

# NLP's status as settled and not worthy of further research is reiterated and it is demonstrated that research has shifted towards the newer "Power Therapies" (EFT, TFT, EMDR, TAT and TIR), which are incidentally advocated and practised by many NLPers.  

  # It is concerned with efficacy, i.e. NLP (and the other Power Therapies) are assessed on their own terms.  

# It is concerned with efficacy, i.e. NLP (and the other Power Therapies) are assessed on their own terms.  

  # It is recent.  

# It is recent.  

  # It is in a mainstream professional journal.  

# It is in a mainstream professional journal.  

    

    

  This vindicates the position of the critical camp (myself, HeadleyDown, Camridge, DaveRight ''et al'') and it shows the position of Comaze and GreagA to be untenable and fundamentally disocciated from reality.  

This vindicates the position of the critical camp (myself, HeadleyDown, Camridge, DaveRight ''et al'') and it shows the position of Comaze and GreagA to be untenable and fundamentally disocciated from reality.  

    

    

  This vindication should have an emboldening and encouraging effect on those that have struggled against the relentless spray of propaganda and the surreal "alternate world landscaping" efforts of GregA and Comaze on behalf of Inspiritive [http://www.inspiritive.com.au/] and Grinder.  

This vindication should have an emboldening and encouraging effect on those that have struggled against the relentless spray of propaganda and the surreal "alternate world landscaping" efforts of GregA and Comaze on behalf of Inspiritive [http://www.inspiritive.com.au/] and Grinder.  

    

    

  I will re-read the paper and add the paper as a reference.   

I will re-read the paper and add the paper as a reference.   

    

    

  PS:- For your amusement see http://sudotherapay.tripod.com/ It's telling of the status enjoyed by the "Power Therapies" (including NLP) that they are being lampooned in this manner. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 15:14, 31 January 2006 (UTC)  

PS:- For your amusement see [http://sudotherapay.tripod.com]. It's telling of the status enjoyed by the "Power Therapies" (including NLP) that they are being lampooned in this manner. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 15:14, 31 January 2006 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=37522689]

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=38422167

:''Headly, please stop trying to dominate this talk page. Your last several edits have been demanding and confrontational, and ignoring users with differing opinions does nothing to help the further development of this page. Please try to edit constructively and join this mediation, for the good of the article''. Swatjester 01:44, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Headly, please stop trying to dominate this talk page. Your last several edits have been demanding and confrontational, and ignoring users with differing opinions does nothing to help the further development of this page. Please try to edit constructively and join this mediation, for the good of the article. Swatjester 01:44, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I will not dominate. Science WILL. HeadleyDown 02:47, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

:''I will not dominate. Science WILL''. HeadleyDown 02:47, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Swatjester, this isn't a matter of aesthetics, we're not arguing about the "greatest band in the world". NLP makes specific claims about learning, memory, cognition, mental illness and neurology. These aren't unclaimed subject domains that are up for grabs. Scientific method is the best method that we have for learning about the universe and its inhabitants and scientific knowledge is the most accurate knowledge we have about the universe and its inhabitants (with regards to non-religious and non-ethical concerns). Until science is displaced by NLP as the means for investigating reality then the scientific view should prevail. This is non-negotiable. NLP is not peer of science and whereas science has a well-established method of inquiry, NLPs is entirely conjectural and because of the invalidity of the techniques it has generated most likely flawed. We're not going to be served a plate of shit and told its a delicious chicken dinner. flavius 04:13, 6 February 2006 (UTC)  

Swatjester, this isn't a matter of aesthetics, we're not arguing about the "greatest band in the world". NLP makes specific claims about learning, memory, cognition, mental illness and neurology. These aren't unclaimed subject domains that are up for grabs. Scientific method is the best method that we have for learning about the universe and its inhabitants and scientific knowledge is the most accurate knowledge we have about the universe and its inhabitants (with regards to non-religious and non-ethical concerns). Until science is displaced by NLP as the means for investigating reality then the scientific view should prevail. This is non-negotiable. NLP is not peer of science and whereas science has a well-established method of inquiry, NLPs is entirely conjectural and because of the invalidity of the techniques it has generated most likely flawed. We're not going to be served a plate of shit and told its a delicious chicken dinner. flavius 04:13, 6 February 2006 (UTC)  

Oi mate! Swatjester I don't believe you have been here long enough to know. Headley is not dictating. He has consistently been the most cooperative, constructive, anti-propaganda editor on this article. He seems to be enforcing the "spirit" of NPOV policy better than you. The nonpromotional editors are constructive and cooperative. Now we have gained your attention, I think it is time to continue improving the article from its already advanced form - With NLP fanatics under a tighter state of apprehension. DaveRight 04:42, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

:''I'm not getting into the specifics of NLP, because I don't know, and I don't care. But we have to conform with NPOV, and right now it's not happening. Domination of this article will lead only to revert wars like the one that got this page locked. This is what we're trying to avoid here. Instead of being defensive, we need to be constructive and reach a compromise here''. Swatjester 04:31, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Swatjester, NPOV conformity doesn't entail passing bullshit off as fact and privileging pseudocience such that it speaks as loud as science in the article. If it did then the half of the Earth article would be devoted to flat-earth theory. flavius 05:21, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

:''Oi mate! Swatjester I don't believe you have been here long enough to know. Headley is not dictating. He has consistently been the most cooperative, constructive, anti-propaganda editor on this article. He seems to be enforcing the "spirit" of NPOV policy better than you. The nonpromotional editors are constructive and cooperative. Now we have gained your attention, I think it is time to continue improving the article from its already advanced form - With NLP fanatics under a tighter state of apprehension''. DaveRight 04:42, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

====================================================================

*This epistemology stuff from Grinder is sophistry. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 13:54, 9 February 2006 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=38915163]

The ''raison d'etre'' of this article is to subvert editorial efforts towards NPOV and scientific rigour. The content of the article overlaps with the NLP article -- minus any critical opinion -- and it is not far removed from an instructional manual on NLP. The sprawling NLP sub-articles should be pruned back. Despite marketing propaganda that suggests otherwise, NLP is simple and it can be covered in one article. NLP isn't an academic subject, it's a commercial product and it has been discredited by scientific experimentation and review. Hence there should be no NLP project. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 09:44, 13 February 2006 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Principles_of_NLP&diff=prev&oldid=39470882]

Comaze, I find your list of items disheartening in that my efforts towards educating you -- privately and publicly -- have been in vain.

 

  *Your first and fourth items are inconsistent and you inadvertantly demonstrate that there is no NLP "mainstream". The notions of "first access", "F1/F2 transforms" occur only in the writings and seminars of Grinder and his disciples. Google scholar is only an indicator of how frequently a text is referenced by other texts it doesn't indicate credibility or authority.

I had a look over the articles subsumed by the NLP Wikiproject[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Neuro-Linguistic_Programming_Wikiproject] and the project is out of control. The constituent articles are biased, promotional and reminiscent of the content of alt.psychology.nlp. They are distinctively unencyclopedia and should all be deleted. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 09:56, 13 February 2006 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Principles_of_NLP&diff=prev&oldid=39471633]

  *The "acaedmic journals" and "highly-cited works" demolish NLP and you've been attempting to censor these references from the outset.

  *There is a plain connection between NLP and Dianetics and the engram concept does appear in NLP literature. Hence their inclusion is justified.

  *Combining "Classic Code" jargon with "New Code" jargon will confuse people that come to the article with no prior knowledge of NLP.  

  *I don't think that the internecine conflicts of pseudoscients are worthy of inclusion within the article. Bandler contends on his nlpmp3.com interview that he is the one and only source of NLP knowledge. Shall we include this also? The arguments between pseudoscientists are gibberish and its inevitable that they will be at each other's throats because they're all crap merchants competing for clients.

  *Grouping "similar critics" isn't a conventional way to present expert opinion and some experts present multiple varied criticisms. Criticism should be grouped by theme ''not'' the background of the critic. There is no sense in grouping according to your arbitary categories.

  *I don't support confining criticism to sub-sections because this would open up a space for zealots to write advertising copy for NLP.  

  *The criticism pertains to those aspects of NLP that all schools share in common. There is no element that has been shown to be flawed that has been discarded. They all teach eye-accessing cues and PRS and matching and mirroring and there is no support for any of these techniques and principles.  

  *The response in ''Whispering'' mis-represents the research. Grinder claims that half of the research is supportive of eye accessing cues and half is non-supportive: "Indeed, eye movements have been the subject of dozens of Master's and Doctoral studies in US and European universities over the last quarter of a century. Given the failure on the part of the researchers' to appreciate the methodological point we are developing here, these studies are typically flawed with about half of them demonstrating the validity of the eye movements and about half suggesting that there is no such pattern" (Ch. 3, Pt. I). This is a lie. Sharply (1984) states that "although there are several specific findings that provide support for NLP, the majority are either nonsupportive (17/29) or uncertainn (3/29), with only nine of these findings (i.e., less than one third) in support of NLP on this issue of PRS and its use" (p.246) Grinder's response also betrays a profound ignorance of inferential statistics and scientific method. For reasons of moral turpitude, misinformation, and pedagogy Grinder and St Clair's "response" should not be included. NLP survives in an atmosphere of lies and deceit -- the role of Wikipedia is not to maintain NLP by sustaining the lies. For the sake of the integrity of Wikipedia and the moral imperative to not spread lies and deceit I strongly object to the inclusion of Grinder's "response".

  *This epistemology stuff from Grinder is sophistry. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 13:54, 9 February 2006 (UTC)  

Consider the article [[Double_bind]]. It alone sets schizophrenia public education back 50 years. It fails to mention that Bateson's so-called "double-bind" theory of schizophrenia was thoroughly discredited more than 20 years ago. Although we have much to learn about schizophrenia we know much more about the illness than when Bateson contrived his theory. I repeat -- these articles should be deleted. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 10:08, 13 February 2006 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Principles_of_NLP&diff=prev&oldid=39472369]

  The ''raison d'etre'' of this article is to subvert editorial efforts towards NPOV and scientific rigour. The content of the article overlaps with the NLP article -- minus any critical opinion -- and it is not far removed from an instructional manual on NLP. The sprawling NLP sub-articles should be pruned back. Despite marketing propaganda that suggests otherwise, NLP is simple and it can be covered in one article. NLP isn't an academic subject, it's a commercial product and it has been discredited by scientific experimentation and review. Hence there should be no NLP project. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 09:44, 13 February 2006 (UTC)  

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Principles_of_NLP&diff=prev&oldid=39471633

Review [[Anchor_%28NLP%29]]. Look at the evidence supplied for the efficacy of anchoring: an article which relays hearsay evidence. Please. These articles are unsubstantiated -- compare the copious referencing in the main NLP article with these articles. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 10:16, 13 February 2006 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Principles_of_NLP&diff=prev&oldid=39472773]

I had a look over the articles subsumed by the NLP Wikiproject[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Neuro-Linguistic_Programming_Wikiproject] and the project is out of control. The constituent articles are biased, promotional and reminiscent of the content of alt.psychology.nlp. They are distinctively unencyclopedia and should all be deleted. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 09:56, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

How about this one [[Life_line]]? Does an article get worse than this? It's just New age mumbo-jumbo. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 10:18, 13 February 2006 (UTC)  

Consider the article [[Double_bind]]. It alone sets schizophrenia public education back 50 years. It fails to mention that Bateson's so-called "double-bind" theory of schizophrenia was thoroughly discredited more than 20 years ago. Although we have much to learn about schizophrenia we know much more about the illness than when Bateson contrived his theory. I repeat -- these articles should be deleted. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 10:08, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Principles_of_NLP&diff=prev&oldid=39472773

== NLP vs religion ==

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Principles_of_NLP&diff=prev&oldid=39472891

Matabubble. Your analogy is incomprehensible unless you are proposing that NLP is a religion. Given that NLP makes claims and posits explanations regarding learning, memory, thinking, mental illness, motivation, neurology and physiology its "domain" (as you put it) is the same as that of science. NLP is offering competing theories and therapies to established scientific disciplines. The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is exclusively concerned with theology, it is entirely a religious matter and is hence entirely outside of the scope of scientific inquiry. During the 14th century when the Roman Church did stray outside its proper domain of discourse and opine on matters of astronomy and medicine -- subjects of science -- it was plainly in error. The Roman Catholic Church was not offering a legitimate Christian perspective on astronomy or medicine. What the NLP industry is doing is akin to the medieval Christian Church competing with science on matters outside of its authority. If your reasoning were sound then it would be sensible to discuss phrenology, treappaning, blood-letting and powdered mummy as if they were effective forms of diagnosis and therapy and couch any criticism exclusively in terms of "A scientific perspective of Phrenology...". No such thing occurs, a plurarlity of views concerning the validity of phrenology or the efficacy of powdered mummy as a panacea is not possible since these are issues that can be resolved with empirical investigation and they either work or they don't work.

How about this one [[Life_line]]? Does an article get worse than this? It's just New age mumbo-jumbo. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 10:18, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Matabubble. Your analogy is incomprehensible unless you are proposing that NLP is a religion. Given that NLP makes claims and posits explanations regarding learning, memory, thinking, mental illness, motivation, neurology and physiology its "domain" (as you put it) is the same as that of science. NLP is offering competing theories and therapies to established scientific disciplines. The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is exclusively concerned with theology, it is entirely a religious matter and is hence entirely outside of the scope of scientific inquiry. During the 14th century when the Roman Church did stray outside its proper domain of discourse and opine on matters of astronomy and medicine -- subjects of science -- it was plainly in error. The Roman Catholoc Church was not offering a legitimate Christian perspective on astronomy or medicine. What the NLP industry is doing is akin to the medieval Christian Church competing with science on matters outside of its authority. If your reasoning were sound then it would be sensible to discuss phrenology, treappaning, blood-letting and powdered mummy as if they were effective forms of diagnosis and therapy and couch any criticism exclusively in terms of "A scientific perspective of Phrenology...". No such thing occurs, a plurarlity of views concerning the validity of phrenology or the efficacy of powdered mummy as a panacea is not possible since these are issues that can be resolved with empirical investigation and they either work or they don't work. Any hypothesis that is falsifiable is amenable to scientific testing. The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not a falsifiable hypothesis -- we can not define a priori what conditions would demonstrate its falsity. Such is not the case with PRS, eye accessing cues, matching, mirroring, persuasion, embedded commands, indirect suggestiion, fast phobia cure, VK dissociation, anchoring and reframing. All of these aspects of NLP contain implicit and falsifiable hypotheses. Hence a scientific perspective is the most authoritative perspective on these topics. The onus is on you to demonstrate that NLP is sui generis and hence incapable of investigation employing well-proven methods. I see no such justification. You have done nothing more than asserted that NLP is somehow beyond the realm of scientific inquiry. A prima facie disproval of your contention comes in the form of the extant scientific research into NLP. Furthermore, these papers have been published in peer-reviewed journals. The review process would have flushed out any issues of misapplication of paradigm or methodological error. The only peer criticism regarding any of the NLP research came in the form of one solitary paper in response to Sharpley (1984). Sharpley rebutted all of the criticisms presented by Einspruch. You are attempting to evade the negative conclusions regarding NLP in a most philosophically naive fashion. You are obliged -- by Wikipedia principles -- to present evidence that the scientific scrutiny of NLP is inappropriate -- your assertions are insufficient. I know of no such evidence and you have presented none. Experimental psychologists do in fact study subjective experience -- their method is distinguished from any NLP approach in that it is objective. Subjective experince can and is studied objectively. What then is it that makes NLP sui generis and hence beyond scientific examination? More importantly from a Wikipedia perspective -- because we are not free to perform OR or include unverifiable material -- who is it that presents a cogent argument and evidence that all of the scientific research into NLP is invalid? Who is it that demonstrates that NLP is not amenable to scientific investigation? flavius 02:14, 14 February 2006 (UTC)  

Experimental psychologists do in fact study subjective experience -- their method is distinguished from any NLP approach in that it is objective. Subjective experince can and is studied objectively. What then is it that makes NLP sui generis and hence beyond scientific examination? More importantly from a Wikipedia perspective -- because we are not free to perform OR or include unverifiable material -- who is it that presents a cogent argument and evidence that all of the scientific research into NLP is invalid? Who is it that demonstrates that NLP is not amenable to scientific investigation? flavius 02:14, 14 February 2006 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Principles_of_NLP&diff=prev&oldid=39472891]

Headley. I copncur with your concerns and add my concerns. I'm especially concerned with the misinformation contained in the articles regarding the nature of science and the treatment of mental illness that runs counter to fact and government and non-government advocacy campaigns that have been run in most of the English-speaking world over the last decade. In Australia, the Federal and State governments have spent much public funds on advocacy campaigns aimed at encouraging young people (especially girls) to study science and engineering. There is a science museum in the state in which I live that aims to motivate children to become interested and excited about science. The post-modern assertion -- besides being mere assertion -- that there are a plurality of truths and a plurality of sciences, i.e. that truth and fact are socially contructed is socially harmful, in that it discourages the study of science by young people and is mind destroying. There have been many government and non-government campaigns aimed at educating the general public about depression and schizophrenia and the Schizophrenia Fellowship (now called the Mental Health Fellowship) ran several campaigns aimed at dispelling the myths surrounding Schizophrenia. Bateson's double-bind theory of schizophrenia is a myth, it has been disproven (I can supply references). Like Hubbard, Bateson aims to blame schizophrenia on bad parenting: contradictory communications instead of attempted abortions using coat hangers. I implore the mediators, mentors and arbitrators to delete these sprawling -- largely unwatched -- sub-articles. If this be too aggressive a request then please insist on substantiation from verifiable sources. Wikipedia shouldn't be promoting pseudoscience in connection with mental illness, an issue already associated with myths and stigma and it shouldn't be denigrating science -- the engine of the largest economies -- by spreading post-modern nonsense about the topic. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 02:47, 14 February 2006 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Principles_of_NLP&diff=prev&oldid=39529465]

Headley. I copncur with your concerns and add my concerns. I'm especially concerned with the misinformation contained in the articles regarding the nature of science and the treatment of mental illness that runs counter to fact and government and non-government advocacy campaigns that have been run in most of the English-speaking world over the last decade. In Australia, the Federal and State governments have spent much public funds on advocacy campaigns aimed at encouraging young people (especially girls) to study science and engineering. There is a science museum in the state in which I live that aims to motivate children to become interested and excited about science. The post-modern assertion -- besides being mere assertion -- that there are a plurality of truths and a plurality of sciences, i.e. that truth and fact are socially contructed is socially harmful, in that it discourages the study of science by young people and is mind destroying. There have been many government and non-government campaigns aimed at educating the general public about depression and schizophrenia and the Schizophrenia Fellowship (now called the Mental Health Fellowship) ran several campaigns aimed at dispelling the myths surrounding Schizophrenia. Bateson's double-bind theory of schizophrenia is a myth, it has been disproven (I can supply references). Like Hubbard, Bateson aims to blame schizophrenia on bad parenting: contradictory communications instead of attempted abortions using coat hangers. I implore the mediators, mentors and arbitrators to delete these sprawling -- largely unwatched -- sub-articles. If this be too aggressive a request then please insist on substantiation from verifiable sources. Wikipedia shouldn't be promoting pseudoscience in connection with mental illness, an issue already associated with myths and stigma and it shouldn't be denigrating science -- the engine of the largest economies -- by spreading post-modern nonsense about the topic. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 02:47, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Please focus on discussing specifics of article content. Wikipedia talk pages are not for long, rambling debates over issues in the abstract. · Katefan0(scribble)/poll 03:08, 14 February 2006 (UTC)  

''Please focus on discussing specifics of article content. Wikipedia talk pages are not for long, rambling debates over issues in the abstract''. · Katefan0(scribble)/poll 03:08, 14 February 2006 (UTC)  

Katefan0. I am focussing on the specifics of the article content -- the issue at hand is the relevance of scientific literature to the sprawling NLP articles. Exchanging assertions will not achieve anything. Is that what you are advocating in the name of specificity? I fail to see how a technical matter can be answered without recourse to explanation. Given that I specifically mention a catalogue of NLP techniques and two researchers I'm struggling to comprehend where the specificity and concreteness is lacking in my response. The false analogy between theology and NLP required answering since this was the justification for the exclusion of relevant literature. Would you have preferred, "No it isn't" as a response? Headley and I have raised several substantive issues concerning evidence or the lack thereof provided for the claims in the NLP articles. I'm at a loss how to understand how perfunctory chastisement -- which a bot can be programmed to perform -- will resolve the matters of contention or produce a worthwhile article. flavius 05:12, 14 February 2006 (UTC)  

Katefan0. I am focussing on the specifics of the article content -- the issue at hand is the relevance of scientific literature to the sprawling NLP articles. Exchanging assertions will not achieve anything. Is that what you are advocating in the name of specificity? I fail to see how a technical matter can be answered without recourse to explanation. Given that I specifically mention a catalogue of NLP techniques and two researchers I'm struggling to comprehend where the specificity and concreteness is lacking in my response. The false analogy between theology and NLP required answering since this was the justification for the exclusion of relevant literature. Would you have preferred, "No it isn't" as a response? Headley and I have raised several substantive issues concerning evidence or the lack thereof provided for the claims in the NLP articles. I'm at a loss how to understand how perfunctory chastisement -- which a bot can be programmed to perform -- will resolve the matters of contention or produce a worthwhile article. flavius 05:12, 14 February 2006 (UTC)  

It's simple. If you aren't using this talk page to directly discuss proposed changes (or recent changes) to the article itself, then you aren't using this talk page correctly. Focus on the article itself. If you'd like to discuss whether it is proper to include a discrete source, go ahead. But the abstract ideas need to stop. I've also refactored some of your comments. Please be more careful how you address other editors going forward. · Katefan0(scribble)/poll 11:48, 14 February 2006 (UTC)  

''It's simple. If you aren't using this talk page to directly discuss proposed changes (or recent changes) to the article itself, then you aren't using this talk page correctly. Focus on the article itself. If you'd like to discuss whether it is proper to include a discrete source, go ahead. But the abstract ideas need to stop. I've also refactored some of your comments. Please be more careful how you address other editors going forward''. · Katefan0(scribble)/poll 11:48, 14 February 2006 (UTC)  

That would be my point as well. Focus on the article. Since my mentorship began, the main problem I've seen here and on the other NLP related articles is that again, we're not looking for a discussion about the merits of NLP here. We want to make a good Wikipedia article. Long, rambling looks at what NLP means isn't our purpose. If you want to have that kind of discussion, I'd recommend a message board, not an encyclopedia. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 13:58, 14 February 2006 (UTC)  

''That would be my point as well. Focus on the article. Since my mentorship began, the main problem I've seen here and on the other NLP related articles is that again, we're not looking for a discussion about the merits of NLP here. We want to make a good Wikipedia article. Long, rambling looks at what NLP means isn't our purpose. If you want to have that kind of discussion, I'd recommend a message board, not an encyclopedia''. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 13:58, 14 February 2006 (UTC)  

Katefan0 and Woohookitty. I can't say that I understand what you are trying to tell me and I suspect that it may be incomprehensible. You assert, "If you aren't using this talk page to directly discuss proposed changes (or recent changes) to the article itself, then you aren't using this talk page correctly". Isn't requesting the deletion of the articles or requesting that at least substantiating the claims contained therein doing just that? I am addressing the concern of preparing a "good Wikipedia article". Verifiability of content is a pillar of Wikpipedia. I have pointed out where this is lacking in the "NLP Project". Your revulsion towards "abstract ideas" is your problem, not mine. Justification and rebuttal will often entail use of "abstract ideas". Perhaps neither of you are suited for mediation, arbitration and mentorship regarding the article? flavius 08:29, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

=== "Your revulsion towards "abstract ideas" is your problem, not mine" ===

== You have been blocked for an hour ==

== You have been blocked for an hour ==

For [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ANeuro-linguistic_programming%2FWorkshop&diff=39715749&oldid=39714558 this comment]. PLEASE be civil. If you have a problem with how we are doing things, then email us privately and we'll deal with it. We're not perfect. But paragraph long attacks against anyone including the mentors will not be tolerated. Heed Camridge's advice. --[[User:Woohookitty|''Woohookitty'']]^{[[User talk:Woohookitty|(cat scratches)]]} 09:46, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

For [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ANeuro-linguistic_programming%2FWorkshop&diff=39715749&oldid=39714558 this comment]. PLEASE be civil. If you have a problem with how we are doing things, then email us privately and we'll deal with it. We're not perfect. But paragraph long attacks against anyone including the mentors will not be tolerated. Heed Camridge's advice. --[[User:Woohookitty|''Woohookitty'']]^{[[User talk:Woohookitty|(cat scratches)]]} 09:46, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

::I did restore most of what you said. Criticizing us is ok if you feel like we are not doing something correctly. But some of what you said clearly crossed the line into incivility. --[[User:Woohookitty|''Woohookitty'']]^{[[User talk:Woohookitty|(cat scratches)]]} 09:56, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

::I did restore most of what you said. Criticizing us is ok if you feel like we are not doing something correctly. But some of what you said clearly crossed the line into incivility. --[[User:Woohookitty|''Woohookitty'']]^{[[User talk:Woohookitty|(cat scratches)]]} 09:56, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

::"We're not perfect".  No shit.  You don't even have a grasp of the basic points of contention regarding the NLP article.  All three of you have a set of generic brand tinned responses that you re-heat and serve up as ''haute cuisine''.  Then you have the audacity to become indignant when this is pointed out to you.  Clearly you don't understand the technical matters that are germane to the topic of NLP and are either unwilling or unable to adjudicate over the ''actual'' points of contention between the editors.  In lieu of addressing the real editorial problems you and your buddies have chosen to trade platitudes and cliches and pat each other on the back for your flaccid contributions.  Please. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 10:11, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

::"We're not perfect".  No shit.  You don't even have a grasp of the basic points of contention regarding the NLP article.  All three of you have a set of generic brand tinned responses that you re-heat and serve up as ''haute cuisine''.  Then you have the audacity to become indignant when this is pointed out to you.  Clearly you don't understand the technical matters that are germane to the topic of NLP and are either unwilling or unable to adjudicate over the ''actual'' points of contention between the editors.  In lieu of addressing the real editorial problems you and your buddies have chosen to trade platitudes and cliches and pat each other on the back for your flaccid contributions.  Please. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 10:11, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi Flavius. Actually, I reckon being blocked is a clear triumph of beurocracy over fact. Never mind the beurocracy, and well done:) But I could do with your input on the article sometime, and the current beurocracy seems to be combatting the more irritating nags of the past to some degree. We are going to have to be quite impersonal about things after all. I'm sure the facts will be the winners here. Cheers [[User:Camridge|Camridge]] 03:13, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

The obverse of the above points.  

    

    

  No, the method I favour has not been tried. I did not state that you don't "understand the concepts involved in NLP". I wrote "You don't even have a grasp of the basic points of contention regarding the NLP article" and that is the crux of the problem of your contribution thus far. Furthermore, none of you have grasped my principal position so I'll repeat it. Nowhere have I asked for or sought a statement as to the truth of the matter or "which side is best" nor have I attempted to arrive at the truth on the discussion page. Most -- perhaps all -- of the contention on the NLP article concerns (a) designating the view that NLP "works" as a minority view and disposing of it as per Wikipedia policy on minority views; (b) the representativenss of the authors critical of NLP as representative of the majority (scientific) view; and (c) the citability of sources on both sides of the divide. These are the core issues that produced the edit wars and these are the issues which you are not helping to resolve. All you've managed to do is slow down the edits. We will then arrive at the same old place but it will just take longer. You three need to indepedently investigate these matters and adjudicate on them. I will attempt to distil the debate (and I am happy if parties from either camp correct me). Note that this has nothing to do with righness and wrongness and truth it is do with a whether a situation meets the terms of certain Wikipedia policies.

#The pro-NLP editors are unwilling to have NLP presented as a minority view.

  #The view that NLP is efficacious and theoretically sound is a minority view not unlike "flat earth" theory. Hence it should be treated in the NLP article and in Wikipedia generally as a minority view. 

#The pro-NLP editors are unwilling to have the view that NLP is ineffective and withour theoretical basis presented as the majority view.  

  #The scientists cited in the article are representative of the majority view of psychologists, psychiatrists, linguists, neurologists, nueropsychologists and sociologists and hence should be presented as such.  

#The few scientists that do support NLP and promote its use are too much weight and space relative to their individual (academic) stature and numerical number.  

  #The few (3-5) scientists that do support and promote NLP are a minority, they are espousing a minority view and should be presented as such.  

#The pro-NLP editors argue that the scathing critiques (eg. from Leelt, Drenth, Carroll, Eisner, Singer) are not majority representative views but are instead the views of a minority of extremists.  

  #The view that NLP is pseudoscientific, New Age and cult-like is the majority view of psychologists, psychiatrists, linguists, neurologists, neuropsychologists and sociologists and should be presented as such.

  #The texts cited in criticism of NLP are authroritative and many are peer-reviewed.

  The obverse of the above points.  

    

    

  The conflict arises because  

The extensive, expansive and heated discussion occured because these psoitions were argued for by each side in an attempt to establish the righness of their position regarding the representativess and authority of the sources ''not the righness or wrongness of NLP''. The bulk of the conflict turns around the application [[WP:NPOVUW]], NPOV:Pseudoscience, and NPOV:Giving "equal validity". The ''real'' issues have not been addressed by any mediators, arbitrarors and mentors and addressing these would not be "more of the same". It is well within your remit to adjudicate these matters. Have I explained myself clearly? Do you understand? [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 03:27, 16 February 2006 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Flavius_vanillus&diff=prev&oldid=39828314]

  #The pro-NLP editors are unwilling to have NLP presented as a minority view.  

 

  #The pro-NLP editors are unwilling to have the view that NLP is ineffective and withour theoretical basis presented as the majority view.  

''NLP is a useful tool if you know how to use it. Some havent learned how to use it or had ineffective teachers and thus blaming it. Before you learn NLP, check if people who have attended a seminar are getting result before signing up to that trainer. I know price can vary, 1 could look really cheap, I recommend paying someone well who is getting results. If at all learn from the creator of it or his well known disciples''. Feb 23, 2006(JM)

  #The few scientists that do support NLP and promote its use are too much weight and space relative to their individual (academic) stature and numerical number.  

  #The pro-NLP editors argue that the scathing critiques (eg. from Leelt, Drenth, Carroll, Eisner, Singer) are not majority representative views but are instead the views of a minority of extremists.  

    

    

  The extensive, expansive and heated discussion occured because these psoitions were argued for by each side in an attempt to establish the righness of their position regarding the representativess and authority of the sources ''not the righness or wrongness of NLP''. The bulk of the conflict turns around the application [[WP:NPOVUW]], NPOV:Pseudoscience, and NPOV:Giving "equal validity". The ''real'' issues have not been addressed by any mediators, arbitrarors and mentors and addressing these would not be "more of the same". It is well within your remit to adjudicate these matters. Have I explained myself clearly? Do you understand? [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 03:27, 16 February 2006 (UTC)  

:Can you please add your remarks to the bottom of this section rather than at the top. Something is useful only if it works. NLP doesn't work hence it is not useful. There is no evidence that any aspect of NLP works. I'm not making that up. There is not one randomised control experiment that demonstrates the efficacy of ''any'' aspect of NLP. Asking people about "results" is simply obtaining anecdotal evidence. Who cares for anecdotal evidence? Humans have a great capacity for kidding themselves. How would you know that (a) you are getting results; and (b) if you are getting results, that you can attribute those to NLP? ''The'' creator. There were two creators Bandler and Grinder. You must be a Bandlerite. I have zero respect for Bandler -- just look at the guy: fat, toothless, diabetic, former cocaine addict, former alcoholic, implicated in murder, bankrupted twice, lost his insane litigations regarding NLP as his intellectual property. Bandler has also fictionalised his biography and been dishonest about his accomplishments. Bandler has a BA in Psychology and Philosophy and an MA in Psychology. He isn't a mathematician or an engineers. I'd rather give my money to be vagrant. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 06:13, 25 February 2006 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Flavius_vanillus&diff=prev&oldid=41131026]

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Flavius_vanillus&diff=prev&oldid=41131026

=== Scott Coleman admits being Comaze ===

Hello Comaze. Concerning your action on behalf of the interests of the NLP company of the Collingwoods: In an effort to reduce the likelihood of conflict being provoked, and for the sake of continuing the improvement on the NLP workshop article, I have posted a message to KatefanO on this matter. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Katefan0]. [[User:Camridge|Camridge]] 03:50, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Hello Comaze. Concerning your action on behalf of the interests of the NLP company of the Collingwoods: In an effort to reduce the likelihood of conflict being provoked, and for the sake of continuing the improvement on the NLP workshop article, I have posted a message to KatefanO on this matter. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Katefan0]. [[User:Camridge|Camridge]] 03:50, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

::In an email Comaze (Scott Coleman of comaze.com) explained to me that he was "authorised" to speak on behalf of the Collingwoods. Thus Comaze is a mouthpiece and lapdog of the Collingwoods -- the owners of an NLP training and consultancy organisation. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 14:08, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

::In an email Comaze (Scott Coleman of comaze.com) explained to me that he was "authorised" to speak on behalf of the Collingwoods. Thus Comaze is a mouthpiece and lapdog of the Collingwoods -- the owners of an NLP training and consultancy organisation. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 14:08, 25 February 2006 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Flavius_vanillus&diff=prev&oldid=41168107]

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Flavius_vanillus&diff=prev&oldid=41269997

:''See [http://www.inspiritive.com.au/new_code_nlp.htm here] for Chris and Jules Collingwood's website'' [MyWikiBiz].

== You have been blocked for 24 hours ==  

 

For [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Flavius_vanillus&diff=prev&oldid=41168107 this]. If calling someone a "lapdog" isn't uncivil, I don't think anything is. Please stop. --[[User:Woohookitty|''Woohookitty'']]^{[[User talk:Woohookitty|(cat scratches)]]} 01:58, 26 February 2006 (UTC)  For [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Flavius_vanillus&diff=prev&oldid=41168107 this]. If calling someone a "lapdog" isn't uncivil, I don't think anything is. Please stop. --[[User:Woohookitty|''Woohookitty'']]^{[[User talk:Woohookitty|(cat scratches)]]} 01:58, 26 February 2006 (UTC)  

== Flavius gets blocked for 24 hours ==  

 

  :How about ''sycophant'', ''forelock tugger'', or ''flunky''? Are these acceptable? Also, I'm on my own talk page -- save defamation -- don't I have the choice of adjectives? [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 04:55, 26 February 2006 (UTC)  

For [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Flavius_vanillus&diff=prev&oldid=41168107 this]. If calling someone a "lapdog" isn't uncivil, I don't think anything is. Please stop. --[[User:Woohookitty|''Woohookitty'']]^{[[User talk:Woohookitty|(cat scratches)]]} 01:58, 26 February 2006 (UTC)  For [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Flavius_vanillus&diff=prev&oldid=41168107 this]. If calling someone a "lapdog" isn't uncivil, I don't think anything is. Please stop. --[[User:Woohookitty|''Woohookitty'']]^{[[User talk:Woohookitty|(cat scratches)]]} 01:58, 26 February 2006 (UTC)  

 

:How about ''sycophant'', ''forelock tugger'', or ''flunky''? Are these acceptable? Also, I'm on my own talk page -- save defamation -- don't I have the choice of adjectives? [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 04:55, 26 February 2006 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Flavius_vanillus&diff=prev&oldid=41269997]

No. The civility requirements don't end with the NLP article. The block has now been extended to 48 hours for the words you used. If you use more, it'll just be extended further, so I'd suggest that you stop now. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 05:13, 26 February 2006 (UTC)  

No. The civility requirements don't end with the NLP article. The block has now been extended to 48 hours for the words you used. If you use more, it'll just be extended further, so I'd suggest that you stop now. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 05:13, 26 February 2006 (UTC)  

Surely not! Would marionette or drone be indicative of incivility? At this time I'm unable to think of any other synonyms, similes or anlogies that convey the idea of subservience and sycophancy. Describing a behaviour as sycophantic and subservient isn't necessarily uncivil. Surely, there are behaviours that are sycophantic and subservient and the application of these adjectives to these instances is a matter of fidelity. If I had described Comaze as a shithead, dickhead, arsehole or prick that would be uncivil because these are expletives that mean nothing more than "objectionable person". The phrase arse licker is accurate but that is taboo and uncivil. What about a ventriloquist dummy metaphor? Surely that's not uncivil. The comedic content alone would negate any potential incivility, eg. "Can Chris Collingwood drink a glass of water whilst Scott Coleman (Comaze) counts to 10?", "Can John Grinder drink a glass of water whilst Chris Collingwood counts to 10?". A Pinocchio/Geppetto metaphor would also work but I wouldn't want to imply that anyone was lying about NLP -- heaven forbid. flavius 15:10, 26 February 2006 (UTC)  

Surely not! Would marionette or drone be indicative of incivility? At this time I'm unable to think of any other synonyms, similes or anlogies that convey the idea of subservience and sycophancy. Describing a behaviour as sycophantic and subservient isn't necessarily uncivil. Surely, there are behaviours that are sycophantic and subservient and the application of these adjectives to these instances is a matter of fidelity. If I had described Comaze as a shithead, dickhead, arsehole or prick that would be uncivil because these are expletives that mean nothing more than "objectionable person". The phrase arse licker is accurate but that is taboo and uncivil. What about a ventriloquist dummy metaphor? Surely that's not uncivil. The comedic content alone would negate any potential incivility, eg. "Can Chris Collingwood drink a glass of water whilst Scott Coleman (Comaze) counts to 10?", "Can John Grinder drink a glass of water whilst Chris Collingwood counts to 10?". A Pinocchio/Geppetto metaphor would also work but I wouldn't want to imply that anyone was lying about NLP -- heaven forbid. flavius 15:10, 26 February 2006 (UTC)  

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Flavius_vanillus"

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Flavius_vanillus"

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming/Workshop&action=history

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming/Workshop&action=history boring workshop which no one contributed to]

Please place your commentary at the end of the page in the future. It doesn't only cover his law suits. Also covered is his co-creation of NLP and creation of DHE, NHR and PE. It is contrary to Wikipedia policy to include lins to "[s]ites that primarily exist to sell products or services." WP:EL The external links I have removed are -- with respect to Bandler -- not "pro-his viewpoint", they are advertisements. The seminar reviews I removed are product testimonials -- they are advertisements. There are no negative reviews on that site. Surely, there are people that have walked away from Bandler seminars disappointed (I personally know of several such cases). Where are these negative reviews? Most of the people that "like him" eg. Paul McKenna, Paul Breen, John La Valle, Nick Kemp etc. and write hagiographies are commercial partners, they have a commercial interest in promoting Bandler. My actions are entirely consistent with the article growing in a fair and balanced manner. My concern is with preventing the article from becomng an advertisement for Bandler. Bandler's biography is rather dull and uninteresting -- the only interesting features are his fuck-ups such as his divorce, two declarations of bankruptcy, the split with Grinder, the cocaine habit, the alcoholism, the nutty lawsuits and being tried for the murder of a BDSM hooker. The banality of Bandler's life is most probably why he makes up so much shit about himself -- to make himself sound interesting. Bandler has no life outside of NLP -- it's been his life since university (even his MA was in "Theoretical Psychology"). Grinder -- on the other hand -- was in the Army and he taught linguistics for many years. Bandler's "trainings and work" is his business -- its how he makes money, nothing more. If Bandler had actually made some great discovery (eg. polio vaccine) or achieved some great feat (eg. saving millions of people from hunger) then we'd be able to include it in the article. Unfortunately (for Bandler) his life has been a series of screw-ups and has revolved largely around a few banal ideas that he and Grinder had in the early 1970s. The man himself is a screw-up: he's obese, diabetic and toothless. Can someone that is unable to "master" dental hygiene and diet be sanely represented as an authority on mental and physical health and self-control? flavius 08:44, 15 March 2006 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Flavius_vanillus&diff=prev&oldid=46454886]

Please place your commentary at the end of the page in the future. It doesn't only cover his law suits. Also covered is his co-creation of NLP and creation of DHE, NHR and PE. It is contrary to Wikipedia policy to include lins to "[s]ites that primarily exist to sell products or services." WP:EL The external links I have removed are -- with respect to Bandler -- not "pro-his viewpoint", they are advertisements. The seminar reviews I removed are product testimonials -- they are advertisements. There are no negative reviews on that site. Surely, there are people that have walked away from Bandler seminars disappointed (I personally know of several such cases). Where are these negative reviews? Most of the people that "like him" eg. Paul McKenna, Paul Breen, John La Valle, Nick Kemp etc. and write hagiographies are commercial partners, they have a commercial interest in promoting Bandler. My actions are entirely consistent with the article growing in a fair and balanced manner. My concern is with preventing the article from becomng an advertisement for Bandler. Bandler's biography is rather dull and uninteresting -- the only interesting features are his fuck-ups such as his divorce, two declarations of bankruptcy, the split with Grinder, the cocaine habit, the alcoholism, the nutty lawsuits and being tried for the murder of a BDSM hooker. The banality of Bandler's life is most probably why he makes up so much shit about himself -- to make himself sound interesting. Bandler has no life outside of NLP -- it's been his life since university (even his MA was in "Theoretical Psychology"). Grinder -- on the other hand -- was in the Army and he taught linguistics for many years. Bandler's "trainings and work" is his business -- its how he makes money, nothing more. If Bandler had actually made some great discovery (eg. polio vaccine) or achieved some great feat (eg. saving millions of people from hunger) then we'd be able to include it in the article. Unfortunately (for Bandler) his life has been a series of screw-ups and has revolved largely around a few banal ideas that he and Grinder had in the early 1970s. The man himself is a screw-up: he's obese, diabetic and toothless. Can someone that is unable to "master" dental hygiene and diet be sanely represented as an authority on mental and physical health and self-control? flavius 08:44, 15 March 2006 (UTC)  

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ANeuro-linguistic_programming%2FWorkshop&diff=46451011&oldid=46437550 Flavious said something here]

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ANeuro-linguistic_programming%2FWorkshop&diff=46451011&oldid=46437550

Error From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

'''Error From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia''':

Jump to: navigation, search The database did not find the text of a page that it should have found, named "Talk:Neuro-linguistic programming/Workshop" (Diff: 46437550, 46451011).  

Jump to: navigation, search The database did not find the text of a page that it should have found, named "Talk:Neuro-linguistic programming/Workshop" (Diff: 46437550, 46451011).  

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Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming/Workshop"

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming/Workshop"

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Flavius_vanillus&diff=prev&oldid=46452261

=== Flavius blocked for 2 weeks ===

You have been blocked for 2 weeks

''You have been blocked for 2 weeks For this. This is your 6th block, Flavius. Any further disruption is going to lead to an indefinite block. Last chance''. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 12:57, 1 April 2006 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Flavius_vanillus&diff=prev&oldid=46452261]

For this. This is your 6th block, Flavius. Any further disruption is going to lead to an indefinite block. Last chance. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 12:57, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

What is wrong with that edit? How is it disruptive? flavius 13:01, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

'''Flavius''': What is wrong with that edit? How is it disruptive? flavius 13:01, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

It is a personal attack from start to finish. I had to remove the entire thing because I couldn't even refactor it to something keepable. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 13:11, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

'''Admin''': It is a personal attack from start to finish. I had to remove the entire thing because I couldn't even refactor it to something keepable. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 13:11, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

The whole thing? Even the bit where I refer to Wikipedia policy? The third point could be construed as a personal attack but the first two aren't. Can you at least reinstate the first two points? flavius 13:38, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

'''Flavius''': The whole thing? Even the bit where I refer to Wikipedia policy? The third point could be construed as a personal attack but the first two aren't. Can you at least reinstate the first two points? flavius 13:38, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

 

Firstly, it's not your place to "peer review" Corballis. You are not his peer and even if your were your assessment of Corballis and his conclusion is entirely irrelevant. Corballis is a topic expert and that is his conclusion. Quoting Corballis is entirely consistent with all Wikipedia policies -- it is not encumbent on me to defend Corballis or for you to attempt a critique. Mind Myths is a collection of essays published by a large publisher, Corballis is a profesor at the University of Auckland and is an expert in cognitive neuroscience[32]. Corballis has a special interest in brain lateralisation and language evolotion. End of story nothing more need be said.  

Firstly, it's not your place to "peer review" Corballis. You are not his peer and even if your were your assessment of Corballis and his conclusion is entirely irrelevant. Corballis is a topic expert and that is his conclusion. Quoting Corballis is entirely consistent with all Wikipedia policies -- it is not encumbent on me to defend Corballis or for you to attempt a critique. Mind Myths is a collection of essays published by a large publisher, Corballis is a profesor at the University of Auckland and is an expert in cognitive neuroscience[32]. Corballis has a special interest in brain lateralisation and language evolotion. End of story nothing more need be said.  

This isn't a personal attack. Can you tell me how this constitutes a personal attack? flavius 13:51, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

This isn't a personal attack. Can you tell me how this constitutes a personal attack? flavius 13:51, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

Secondly, as the mentors have repeatedly stated it is not our job to determine the truth, our function as editors is to report expert opinion. You and Greg have often as a last resort when you've no other recourse left attempt to engage an expert in debate using the Wikipedia editor (in this case me) as a proxy. I've no interest in debating you on behalf of Corballis -- I don't have to and it's a waste of my time, it will come to nothing.  

 

Neither is this. This is a reference to Wikipedia policy and a historical breaches of this policy by GregA and Comaze. flavius 13:51, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

Secondly, as the mentors have repeatedly stated it is not our job to determine the truth, our function as editors is to report expert opinion. You and Greg have often as a last resort when you've no other recourse left attempt to engage an expert in debate using the Wikipedia editor (in this case me) as a proxy. I've no interest in debating you on behalf of Corballis -- I don't have to and it's a waste of my time, it will come to nothing. Neither is this. This is a reference to Wikipedia policy and a historical breaches of this policy by GregA and Comaze. flavius 13:51, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

 

Thirdly, you haven't arrived at your devotion to NLP via reason and your fetish can't be altered using reason. You're not operating within the a domain in which evidence has any value or even meaning. On what evidence does Grinder make any of his claims? Given that you've spent a substantial amount of time and keystrokes debasing the very concept of evidence -- "NLP has its own standard of evidence", "NLP has its own epistemology" -- what exactly does it mean when you ask, "On what evidence does Corballis make these claims?". Aren't you expressing a double-standard and dare I say hypocrisy? On the one hand you devalue the notion of evidence by appealing to epistemological relativism and now you are asking for "evidence". If Grinder can define his own terms of evidence -- if epistemological relativism is a valid philosophical position -- then you question is illegitimate and meaningless. Post-modernity and its attendant epistemological, ethical and aesthetic relatvism is "egalitarian", it is an "equal opprotunity" worldview. If Grinder can appeal to a "another epistemology" then so too can Corballis, so too can I, so too can HeadleyDown, so too can Levelt, so too can Beyerstein. The post-modern position is not available only to Grinder. Decide where you sit on this matter don't embrace or reject scientific realism as it suits you. This dithering reeks of bad faith. flavius 12:42, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

Thirdly, you haven't arrived at your devotion to NLP via reason and your fetish can't be altered using reason. You're not operating within the a domain in which evidence has any value or even meaning. On what evidence does Grinder make any of his claims? Given that you've spent a substantial amount of time and keystrokes debasing the very concept of evidence -- "NLP has its own standard of evidence", "NLP has its own epistemology" -- what exactly does it mean when you ask, "On what evidence does Corballis make these claims?". Aren't you expressing a double-standard and dare I say hypocrisy? On the one hand you devalue the notion of evidence by appealing to epistemological relativism and now you are asking for "evidence". If Grinder can define his own terms of evidence -- if epistemological relativism is a valid philosophical position -- then you question is illegitimate and meaningless. Post-modernity and its attendant epistemological, ethical and aesthetic relatvism is "egalitarian", it is an "equal opprotunity" worldview. If Grinder can appeal to a "another epistemology" then so too can Corballis, so too can I, so too can HeadleyDown, so too can Levelt, so too can Beyerstein. The post-modern position is not available only to Grinder. Decide where you sit on this matter don't embrace or reject scientific realism as it suits you. This dithering reeks of bad faith. flavius 12:42, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

Parts of this could be regarded as a personal attack. This refactoring isn't in any way an attack:  

Parts of this could be regarded as a personal attack. This refactoring isn't in any way an attack:  

Thirdly, on what evidence does Grinder make any of his claims? Given that you've spent a substantial amount of time and keystrokes debasing the very concept of evidence -- "NLP has its own standard of evidence", "NLP has its own epistemology" -- what exactly does it mean when you ask, "On what evidence does Corballis make these claims?". Aren't you expressing a double-standard and dare I say hypocrisy? On the one hand you devalue the notion of evidence by appealing to epistemological relativism and now you are asking for "evidence". If Grinder can define his own terms of evidence -- if epistemological relativism is a valid philosophical position -- then you question is illegitimate and meaningless. Post-modernity and its attendant epistemological, ethical and aesthetic relatvism is "egalitarian", it is an "equal opprotunity" worldview. If Grinder can appeal to a "another epistemology" then so too can Corballis, so too can I, so too can HeadleyDown, so too can Levelt, so too can Beyerstein. flavius 13:51, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

Thirdly, on what evidence does Grinder make any of his claims? Given that you've spent a substantial amount of time and keystrokes debasing the very concept of evidence -- "NLP has its own standard of evidence", "NLP has its own epistemology" -- what exactly does it mean when you ask, "On what evidence does Corballis make these claims?". Aren't you expressing a double-standard and dare I say hypocrisy? On the one hand you devalue the notion of evidence by appealing to epistemological relativism and now you are asking for "evidence". If Grinder can define his own terms of evidence -- if epistemological relativism is a valid philosophical position -- then you question is illegitimate and meaningless. Post-modernity and its attendant epistemological, ethical and aesthetic relatvism is "egalitarian", it is an "equal opprotunity" worldview. If Grinder can appeal to a "another epistemology" then so too can Corballis, so too can I, so too can HeadleyDown, so too can Levelt, so too can Beyerstein. flavius 13:51, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

Comaze's question represents an attempt (not necessaily malicious) to lead the discussion into a debate about truth vis-a-vis NLP which you have been discouraging. A re-iteration of the ground rules can't be considered a personal attack. flavius 13:51, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

Comaze's question represents an attempt (not necessaily malicious) to lead the discussion into a debate about truth vis-a-vis NLP which you have been discouraging. A re-iteration of the ground rules can't be considered a personal attack. flavius 13:51, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

Right. So it's the *mentors* job to call him on it. Personal. Less see. Accusing him of hypocrisy. Secondly, you assume bad faith by assuming that he came to NLP not be reasoning. Thirdly, you accused him of bad faith. And there are other examples I could cite but I am not going to. I will make another attempt to refactor your comments. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 19:58, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

 

Btw, if you want to see the right way to respond to Comaze's question, look at HeadleyDown's response. It's questioning but it's civil and polite. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 19:59, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

:''Right. So it's the *mentors* job to call him on it. Personal. Less see. Accusing him of hypocrisy. Secondly, you assume bad faith by assuming that he came to NLP not be reasoning. Thirdly, you accused him of bad faith. And there are other examples I could cite but I am not going to. I will make another attempt to refactor your comments''. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 19:58, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

 

:''Btw, if you want to see the right way to respond to Comaze's question, look at HeadleyDown's response. It's questioning but it's civil and polite''. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 19:59, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

The "right way" is the efficacious way. I'm not seeing the progress I hoped for since the mentors involvement. GregA, Comaze and Mettabubble are in effect asserting P and not P and this is having the effect of stalling editorial progress. In order to insert pro-NLP material -- that doesn't meet the conventional standards of evidence -- we are bombarded with appeals to epistemological relatvism expressed in the form of "NLP has its own epistemology" and "NLP has its own standard of evidence". In order to obstruct inclusion of material critical of NLP the epistemological relativism is (temporarily) discarded and scientific realism is (temporarily) embraced and we are asked for conventional evidence and the discourse becomes meaningful only in the context of scientific realism (i.e. notions of "experimental evidence", "peer review", "reputablity" and science are appealed to). This is nonsensical and it is holding back the article. This switching of weltenschaung as it suits is confusing the discussions. It is not logically possible to simulatenously appeal to epistemological relativism and scientific realism. It is self-contradictory -- it is the same as proposing P and not P.  

The "right way" is the efficacious way. I'm not seeing the progress I hoped for since the mentors involvement. GregA, Comaze and Mettabubble are in effect asserting P and not P and this is having the effect of stalling editorial progress. In order to insert pro-NLP material -- that doesn't meet the conventional standards of evidence -- we are bombarded with appeals to epistemological relatvism expressed in the form of "NLP has its own epistemology" and "NLP has its own standard of evidence". In order to obstruct inclusion of material critical of NLP the epistemological relativism is (temporarily) discarded and scientific realism is (temporarily) embraced and we are asked for conventional evidence and the discourse becomes meaningful only in the context of scientific realism (i.e. notions of "experimental evidence", "peer review", "reputablity" and science are appealed to). This is nonsensical and it is holding back the article. This switching of weltenschaung as it suits is confusing the discussions. It is not logically possible to simulatenously appeal to epistemological relativism and scientific realism. It is self-contradictory -- it is the same as proposing P and not P.  

The upshot of this is that if an author is going to justify their claims by appealing to epistemological/moral/aesthetic relativism they must extend that privilege to other also. Comaze and GregA seem to think that Grinder has some special pass to the Universe where he can define his own standard of evidence and conception of truth yet anyone that criticises him must confine themselves to the rigours of scientific realism. If a an NLP critical view is to be scrutinised with reference to scientific realist concepts -- in particular, the notion of objective experimental evidence -- then so too must the NLP promotional views. If the NLP promotional views are to be admitted on epistemological relativist terms then so to must NLP critical views. I accused Comaze of hypocrisy because he asks, "On what evidence does Corballis make these claims?" yet he won't entertain the question "On what evidence does Grinder make these claims?". How can it be that Corballis needs evidence yet Grinder doesn't? flavius 02:51, 2 April 2006 (UTC)  

The upshot of this is that if an author is going to justify their claims by appealing to epistemological/moral/aesthetic relativism they must extend that privilege to other also. Comaze and GregA seem to think that Grinder has some special pass to the Universe where he can define his own standard of evidence and conception of truth yet anyone that criticises him must confine themselves to the rigours of scientific realism. If a an NLP critical view is to be scrutinised with reference to scientific realist concepts -- in particular, the notion of objective experimental evidence -- then so too must the NLP promotional views. If the NLP promotional views are to be admitted on epistemological relativist terms then so to must NLP critical views. I accused Comaze of hypocrisy because he asks, "On what evidence does Corballis make these claims?" yet he won't entertain the question "On what evidence does Grinder make these claims?". How can it be that Corballis needs evidence yet Grinder doesn't? flavius 02:51, 2 April 2006 (UTC)  

Stop attacking others. With the next attack, you will be blocked indefinitely. I would suggest serving your 2 weeks in peace. Once again, you are being incivil and attacking others. Suggesting that the pro-NLP side is stalling and obstruction would be personal attacks. What I don't understand is. You have 2 basic options. It's simple. You can either A) email comments like this to the mentors and we will look into them or B) Do what HeadleyDown is doing, which is write out what you want, look at what we consider blockable and then remove the blockable comments. This isn't hard. We're not asking for much. So you have problems with how the pro side is handling things. Fine. Then email us on it and we will see what we can do. Instead, you put it here and it comes off as a personal attack and as assuming bad faith. And flavius, you've been blocked 6 times. You should know the policy on attacks by now and what we consider attacks. If you don't know, then I don't think you ever will in which case you don't belong here. This is your last chance. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 08:00, 2 April 2006 (UTC)  

:''Stop attacking others. With the next attack, you will be blocked indefinitely. I would suggest serving your 2 weeks in peace. Once again, you are being incivil and attacking others. Suggesting that the pro-NLP side is stalling and obstruction would be personal attacks. What I don't understand is. You have 2 basic options. It's simple. You can either A) email comments like this to the mentors and we will look into them or B) Do what HeadleyDown is doing, which is write out what you want, look at what we consider blockable and then remove the blockable comments. This isn't hard. We're not asking for much. So you have problems with how the pro side is handling things. Fine. Then email us on it and we will see what we can do. Instead, you put it here and it comes off as a personal attack and as assuming bad faith. And flavius, you've been blocked 6 times. You should know the policy on attacks by now and what we consider attacks. If you don't know, then I don't think you ever will in which case you don't belong here. This is your last chance''. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 08:00, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[[User:64.46.47.242|64.46.47.242]] 04:22, 16 December 2006 (UTC) The editor formerly known an Flavius ;-)  

I'm not being uncivil and attacking others. Why is it preferable to email you rather than post my concerns in the discussion? I don't like the furtive intrigue implicit in privately communicating to the mentors. Discussion should be open and free restricted only by the law. I'm mindful that I don't libel anyone and that's enough for my government and my conscience. Your notion of "civility" is alien to me -- it's very PC notion and Australia isn't a PC nation (sure there are pockets of it on certain univeristy campuses and government bureaucracies but it's not a national character). I'm not from the USA so I'm not imbued with the Victorian/Protestant Puritanism that you appear to be appealing to. That isn't a personal attack -- it is a matter of fact, pointing out a fact that may be unpalatable isn't a personal attack. Also, why can't I put what I like -- so long as it isn't libellous -- on "my talk" page. So what if I've been blocked six times? You're the one performing the blocking it's not like your're referring to the decisions of some independent third-party, court of the land or moral authority. Your notion of a personal attack doesn't match up with mine -- it's as simple as that. I don't understand what you are having trouble understanding ("What I don't understand is"). This is an aesthetic dispute and your definition of a "personal attack" is loose and flexible. I can't read your mind or predict the future, I don't know in advance what you will deem a "personal attack" and it isn't as if I'm calling people motherfuckers or child pornographers. Libel is well-defined so I know when I'd be libelling someone. A "personal attack" in my aesthetic judgement consists of calling someone a dickhead, a fuckwit, a moron, a rapist, paedophile, con-artist, racist epithet and so on. Stating that someone is being hypocritical and then proceeding to provide an exlanation of how someone is being hypocritical isn't a personal attack. Certainly, it's not "nice" but neither are articles on bestiality, paedophilia, coprophilia, and redneck American racists[33]. Who will be the arbiter of whether I "belong here"? I've been complying with your blocks without any fuss. There is no way to keep a determined person off Wikipedia and I haven't resorted to any of these means (which are entirely legal, easy and unstoppable) so I don't understand why you are antagonising and threatening me. flavius 12:21, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=94646652&oldid=94631169]

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[[Keyword:=Flavius vanillus]]

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