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The irony of the situation -- which clearly escapes you, Comaze and FT2 -- is that NLP master practitioners invariably promote themselves as experts in persuasion and belief modification. Where then are the persuasion skills and belief modification techniques? Why can't you magically disolve all objections? Surely you three NLP super beings can shift the beliefs of a simpleton like me. The inability of you, Comaze and FT2 to persuade in this instance is itself a demonstration of the ineffectiveness of NLP. In the process of attempting to persuade others of the efficacy of NLP -- and in failing abysmally -- you have inadvertantly demonstrated its ineffectiveness. Delicious irony. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 11:42, 17 November 2005 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=28586097]

The irony of the situation -- which clearly escapes you, Comaze and FT2 -- is that NLP master practitioners invariably promote themselves as experts in persuasion and belief modification. Where then are the persuasion skills and belief modification techniques? Why can't you magically disolve all objections? Surely you three NLP super beings can shift the beliefs of a simpleton like me. The inability of you, Comaze and FT2 to persuade in this instance is itself a demonstration of the ineffectiveness of NLP. In the process of attempting to persuade others of the efficacy of NLP -- and in failing abysmally -- you have inadvertantly demonstrated its ineffectiveness. Delicious irony. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 11:42, 17 November 2005 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=28586097]

::I'll start this off:  

::I'll start this off:  

    

    

  ::"In the therapeutic garden a host of pseudo-scientific horsefeathers can be found...what brings some of these therapeutic approaches into the category of pseudo-science is the claim that their presumptions are predicated on scientific understanding and scientific evidence. Often we see that these therapies are presented and justified by such scientific pretensions. Again, I will illustrate this by discussing a fairly recent and popular movement known by the name NLP, an acronym which stands for neuro-linguistic programming" Drenth, J.D. (2003) Growing anti-intellectualism in Europe; a menace to science. Studia Psychologica, 2003, 45, 5-13 (reproduced in http://www.allea.org/pdf/17.pdf)  

::"In the therapeutic garden a host of pseudo-scientific horsefeathers can be found...what brings some of these therapeutic approaches into the category of pseudo-science is the claim that their presumptions are predicated on scientific understanding and scientific evidence. Often we see that these therapies are presented and justified by such scientific pretensions. Again, I will illustrate this by discussing a fairly recent and popular movement known by the name NLP, an acronym which stands for neuro-linguistic programming" Drenth, J.D. (2003) Growing anti-intellectualism in Europe; a menace to science. Studia Psychologica, 2003, 45, 5-13 (reproduced in [http://www.allea.org/pdf/17.pdf])  

    

    

  ::PJD Drenth is Professor (Emeritus) of the Department of Work and Organizational Psychology at Vrije Universiteit (Amsterdam) (see http://www.psy.vu.nl/fpp.php/departments/workandorganizationalpsychology/people/details.html?id=61). Professor Drenth's published works are cited by approximately 180 other works (see http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=PJD+Drenth&btnG=Search).  

::PJD Drenth is Professor (Emeritus) of the Department of Work and Organizational Psychology at Vrije Universiteit (Amsterdam) (see [http://www.psy.vu.nl/fpp.php/departments/workandorganizationalpsychology/people/details.html?id=61]). Professor Drenth's published works are cited by approximately 180 other works (see [http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=PJD+Drenth&btnG=Search]).  

    

    

  ::Drenth (2003) paraphrases Levelt, W.J.M. (1995). Hoedt u voor neuro-linguistische programmering [Beware of neuro-linguistic programming]. Intermediair, 17/11:  

::Drenth (2003) paraphrases Levelt, W.J.M. (1995). Hoedt u voor neuro-linguistische programmering [Beware of neuro-linguistic programming]. Intermediair, 17/11:  

  :::"The psycholinguist Levelt (1995) passed devastating judgment on NLP: It is not informed about the literature, it starts from insights that have been rendered out of date long ago, concepts are not apprehended or are a mere fabrication, conclusions are based upon wrong presumptions. NLP theory and practice have nothing to do with neuroscientific insights, nor with linguistics, nor with informatics and theory of programming. NLP is not interested in the question as to how neurological processes take place, neither in serious research."  

:::"The psycholinguist Levelt (1995) passed devastating judgment on NLP: It is not informed about the literature, it starts from insights that have been rendered out of date long ago, concepts are not apprehended or are a mere fabrication, conclusions are based upon wrong presumptions. NLP theory and practice have nothing to do with neuroscientific insights, nor with linguistics, nor with informatics and theory of programming. NLP is not interested in the question as to how neurological processes take place, neither in serious research."  

    

    

  ::WJM Levelt is a preeminent scholar and psycholinguist. Professor Levelt is the director of the Max Planck Institute for Psycholinguistics (see http://www.mpi.nl/Members/PimLevelt). Professor Levelt's publications number in the hundreds (see http://www.mpi.nl/Members/PimLevelt/Publications) and he is cited thousands of times (see http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=WJM+Levelt&hl=en&lr=&start=0&sa=N).[[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 10:00, 19 November 2005 (UTC)  [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=28741426]

::WJM Levelt is a preeminent scholar and psycholinguist. Professor Levelt is the director of the Max Planck Institute for Psycholinguistics (see [http://www.mpi.nl/Members/PimLevelt]). Professor Levelt's publications number in the hundreds (see [http://www.mpi.nl/Members/PimLevelt/Publications]) and he is cited thousands of times (see [http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=WJM+Levelt&hl=en&lr=&start=0&sa=N]).(User:Flavius vanillus|flavius) 10:00, 19 November 2005 (UTC)  [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=28741426]

== Dialogue with FT2 ==

== Dialogue with FT2 ==