User:Badmachine/wikipedia-en-2013-06-08
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--- Log opened Sat Jun 08 00:00:55 2013
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00:24 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Dcoetzee bachman wont be running again?
00:25 < Dcoetzee> Nope, fortunately
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00:25 < ToAruShiroiNeko> unfortunate
00:25 < Dcoetzee> She's like the old GOP incarnate
00:25 < ToAruShiroiNeko> she is crazy
00:25 < Dcoetzee> She stands for every objectionable opinion they have
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00:25 < Dcoetzee> ToAruShiroiNeko: I'd rather have a crazy person out of the race than risk them being elected
00:26 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Dcoetzee she is a hypocrite
00:26 < ToAruShiroiNeko> thats good comedy
00:26 < Dcoetzee> Don't worry, I'm sure she'll do something hilarious in her civilian life
00:26 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Ah,
00:26 < Dcoetzee> Like go back to her prolife activism career
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00:26 < ToAruShiroiNeko> like marry a non-US person?
00:27 < David_Stevenson> Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachman in..
00:27 < Dcoetzee> Ha
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00:27 < ToAruShiroiNeko> lesbian potn?
00:27 < ToAruShiroiNeko> *porn
00:27 < David_Stevenson> some kind of Alaskan adventure
00:27 < Dcoetzee> I think Palin would be the dom in that relationship
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00:28 < Dcoetzee> She does fight wolves with her bare hands after all
00:28 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Dcoetzee really
00:29 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Bachman wrestles teabags
00:29 < David_Stevenson> gets*
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00:29 < David_Stevenson> and -ged*
00:30 < ToAruShiroiNeko> ??
00:34 * David_Stevenson goes back to work
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00:56 < TeeTylerToe> at the bottom of the page, should there be a sports section, because there's that "under sports 1919 world series" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:List_of_controversial_issues
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01:04 < songwei> hi all, I noticed wikipedia has a column named picture of the day, but I'm wondering if there is category information for the images
01:06 < TeeTylerToe> like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Picture_of_the_day/June_2013
01:07 < songwei> yeah
01:07 < songwei> but how can I get which category this picture belong to
01:09 < SigmaWP> night
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01:10 < songwei> what's night?
01:11 < TeeTylerToe> what do you mean by category? Like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_Picture_of_the_day_June_2013
01:11 < TeeTylerToe> it's a shortened version of "good night" which is what someone says when they're going to sleep
01:12 < songwei> oh, I thought he said to me, sorry
01:14 < songwei> I noticed that another column featured articles and thery have a category for each article, for example, art ,history or some other category
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01:19 < TeeTylerToe> ah
01:20 < TeeTylerToe> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Featured_pictures
01:20 < TeeTylerToe> categories[edit]
01:20 < TeeTylerToe> Contents: Animals — Astronomy — Food and drink — Historical — Natural phenomena — Objects — People — Places — Plants and fungi — Space exploration — Sports — Static non-photographic media — Animated
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01:22 < songwei> yeah, so how to get the category of each picture of the day, do wikipedia provide some apis ? thanks TeeTylerToe
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01:26 < TeeTylerToe> I'd guess you'd have to use the wikipedia api to figure out which wikicommons thing it is, then use the wikicommons api to figure out category, but I don't know
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01:30 < songwei> so can I get the category from the pages, since the api may be not work
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02:29 < David_Stevenson> I need smarter Facebook friends. Someone linked to a Wikipedia article on someone and said "[that person] is from Welsh"
02:29 < David_Stevenson> -_-
02:32 < ToAruShiroiNeko> mareklug it seems like darth vader always shows up when there is civil disturbance
02:35 < David_Stevenson> ToAruShiroiNeko: you don't know that, maybe it's a domestic disturbance
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02:38 < ToAruShiroiNeko> with CS gas?
02:38 < ToAruShiroiNeko> http://img.onedio.com/img/719/bound/2r2/51acad1ed38778ff2a000022.jpg
02:38 < ToAruShiroiNeko> http://img.onedio.com/img/719/bound/2r2/51ab52a52d7527776d00002f.jpg
02:39 < Shirik> watching sad animes before bed
02:39 < Shirik> this should be part of every psychiatrist's medicine cabinet
02:39 < ToAruShiroiNeko> http://img.onedio.com/img/719/bound/2r2/51ac9dcd75910df003000022.jpg
02:39 < Dcoetzee> Shirik: More of that MMORPG one?
02:39 < Shirik> yes
02:39 < Shirik> it's awesome
02:39 < Shirik> you should watch it
02:39 < Dcoetzee> :-)
02:39 < ToAruShiroiNeko> clearly frontal shots are more awesome
02:39 < Dcoetzee> Maybe I will
02:39 < Dcoetzee> Sad can be refreshing
02:39 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Dcoetzee so is CS gas
02:39 < Shirik> also
02:39 < David_Stevenson> who knew Darth Vader was Turkish
02:39 < ToAruShiroiNeko> I am told its good for sinuses
02:39 < Dcoetzee> ToAruShiroiNeko: Which is what
02:39 < Shirik> here, a little screenshot
02:40 < ToAruShiroiNeko> CS - Tear gas
02:40 < Shirik> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10100116478248848&set=a.898482152798.2213626.39704112&type=1&theater
02:40 < ToAruShiroiNeko> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CS_gas
02:40 < Dcoetzee> Shirik: Prettyyyy
02:40 < Dcoetzee> Ah
02:41 < Dcoetzee> I thought it was what you get by blowing up computer science graduate students
02:41 < Dcoetzee> @ ToAruShiroiNeko
02:41 < Shirik> anyway bed time bai
02:41 < Dcoetzee> Shirik: Sleep well!
02:41 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Dcoetzee no
02:42 < ToAruShiroiNeko> its a less-lethal agent used liberally
02:42 < ToAruShiroiNeko> 5th death was quotedly because of it
02:43 < ToAruShiroiNeko> clearly being a janitor is a dangerous job
02:43 < David_Stevenson> Wikipedia admins can vouche that it is
02:43 < David_Stevenson> :p
02:44 < Dcoetzee> Heh yes
02:44 < Dcoetzee> You're lucky to survive getting the job of janitor around here
02:44 < David_Stevenson> Wikipedia admins: the most highly scrutinized toilet scrubbers on the Earth
02:45 < Dcoetzee> Imagine if janitors were so scrutinized in real life. "I noticed you only listed five references, and we were only able to contact four of them. One of them said that you weren't the best janitor they ever had. This raises concerns."
02:46 < Dcoetzee> "Also, you didn't get a perfect score on our test examining toilet structures from around the world."
02:47 < David_Stevenson> Maybe you could spend another six months performing janitor-like activities and assisting janitors before we hire you
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02:49 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Dcoetzee err
02:49 < ToAruShiroiNeko> this guy was CS grenaded
02:49 < Dcoetzee> ToAruShiroiNeko: That sounds unfortunate
02:49 < ToAruShiroiNeko> CS-induced heart attack
02:49 < Dcoetzee> :-(
02:49 < Dcoetzee> Less-lethal indeed
02:49 < ToAruShiroiNeko> it entirely depends how it is used
02:50 < ToAruShiroiNeko> anti-riot CS greanades are not to be shot into buildings or directly at protestors at close range
02:50 < Dcoetzee> Right just in the vicinity
02:50 < ToAruShiroiNeko> 8 people have lost an eye over the close-range attacks
02:51 * David_Stevenson is unsure of how they lose the eye
02:51 < Dcoetzee> I would need to know more about the situation but there may be a training issue in use of the armaments.
02:52 < ToAruShiroiNeko> David_Stevenson just get hit by a CS canister fired at close range
02:52 < Dcoetzee> Yeah it fires at pretty high speed
02:53 < Dcoetzee> You can lose an eye to someone throwing a rock after all
02:53 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Dcoetzee training? isnt it common sense not to beat people with spiked clubs?
02:54 < ToAruShiroiNeko> or indiscriminantly toss CS grenade everywhere
02:54 < David_Stevenson> o_O I guess it would depend how close a range. How they got them in the face every time is pretty remarkable. Unless we are talking about really, really close range
02:54 < Dcoetzee> Correct use of less-lethal weapons to minimize risk of permanent injury does require training
02:54 < ToAruShiroiNeko> or use high presure water on a person posing no theat to anyone knocing them on the ground
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02:55 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Dcoetzee without training I wouldnt aim directly at a protestor
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03:03 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Dcoetzee how much tear gas is too much?
03:04 < Dcoetzee> Obviously that depends on the gas and the circumstances
03:04 < Dcoetzee> It should go without saying that "more than is required to control the violence" is too much
03:04 < ToAruShiroiNeko> a) a tad b) over 9000 c) the entire stockpile
03:05 < ToAruShiroiNeko> well, there was no violence when it was used
03:06 < ToAruShiroiNeko> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/stunning-image-lady-red-endure-134137168.html
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03:14 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Dcoetzee doesnt the images move you?
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03:37 < mareklug> ToAruShiroiNeko you can now get a 16GB 2.0 USB flash drive for 11.99 from MacMall, and it is not pink.
03:38 < ToAruShiroiNeko> its not pink is a :(
03:38 < ToAruShiroiNeko> its not EVEN pink!
03:38 < ToAruShiroiNeko> mareklug in other news, I am frustrated in the absence of pink tear gas
03:39 < mareklug> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/105918205/16GBfor12dollarsTop.png
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03:39 < mareklug> less than 12 even
03:41 < ToAruShiroiNeko> mmm
03:41 < mareklug> the Chinese are hard negotiators. they want 14.50 for two of them key jobbers (8GB and probably not 2.0 USB)
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03:41 < ToAruShiroiNeko> I am glad we are in less than 1$ per 1gb territory
03:42 < mareklug> … I countered with $12 and later sent pictures of what I showed you.
03:42 < ToAruShiroiNeko> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA1050KV7832&Tpk=flash%20drive
03:42 < ToAruShiroiNeko> out of stock :(
03:42 < ToAruShiroiNeko> only $38.99
03:43 < ToAruShiroiNeko> mareklug: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820313339
03:43 < mareklug> that would be $46 plus sales tax for the 256 jobber. but out of stuck
03:44 < ToAruShiroiNeko> second one is better
03:44 < ToAruShiroiNeko> its pink!
03:44 < mareklug> that's 11 plus sales tax, plus all the boys in school make fun of you.
03:44 < mareklug> and it is not USB 2.0
03:44 < ToAruShiroiNeko> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA0SF0BV1164 <-
03:44 < mareklug> unlke the one at MacMall
03:45 < ToAruShiroiNeko> only $774.37
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03:45 < mareklug> insane
03:46 < ToAruShiroiNeko> its discounted from $797.99
03:46 < mareklug> only 2 out of 5 eggs
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03:46 < ToAruShiroiNeko> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820323052 <- thats a good product, probably
03:46 < mareklug> review: "It started to corrupt data after about 6 months. Also, it's made from very cheap plastic that will come apart."
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03:47 < SigmaWP> bye
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03:48 < mareklug> ToAruShiroiNeko insane price. "Seagate FreeAgent Desk 1.5TB USB 2.0 Silver External Hard Drive STAS1500500
03:48 < mareklug> $79.99" <-- just carry this around, and encrypt the volume with File Vault on the macintosh.
03:49 < ToAruShiroiNeko> yaaa
03:50 < mareklug> you can put it in a pink kawaii bag, too.
03:51 < ToAruShiroiNeko> I'd rather not
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04:33 < TBloemink> could someone PLEASE tell me how I can turn off mac autocorrect
04:33 < TBloemink> it's driving me nuts
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04:41 < russavia> yeah tbloemink -- go back to windows
04:42 < TBloemink> HOW ABOUT NO
04:42 < TBloemink> :P
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05:38 < mareklug> TB|Cloud did you start using your Mac only today?
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05:39 < mareklug> TB|Cloud Edit menu > Spelling… > Check Spelling While Typing (checkmark off)
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05:44 < Qcoder00> Afternoon
05:45 < Qcoder00> Other than the refdesk, does anyone here have any ideas where I can find an answer to a technical question?
05:45 < Qcoder00> The Technical Question being...
05:46 < Qcoder00> In terms of UK signs, what is the current dimensional specifcation for a pedestrian viewed directional sign?
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05:48 < anonpipiq> http://wikipedialogs.com
05:49 < Qcoder00> ROFL
05:49 -!- anonpipiq [~jesus@174.141.213.20] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
05:49 < Qcoder00> anonpipq: Why don't you ask the PRISM for assistance? XD
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05:52 -!- Irssi: #wikipedia-en: Total of 202 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 201 normal]
05:55 < JohnLewis> I find it funny how they logged NickServ and it exposed their password...
05:56 < Qcoder00> I've never really thought IRC was private anyway
05:56 < Qcoder00> ;)
05:57 < nsh> public channels are public record
05:58 < nsh> private messages are privately recorded :)
05:59 < Qcoder00> Besides there is no need for independent logging, All IRC chat passes through the PRISM of an analysts eyes anyway :)
05:59 < JohnLewis> nsh: At that site they logged private chats too. One of which was NickServ's identify command.
05:59 < Qcoder00> Ouch
05:59 < Qcoder00> So someone could post disreputable stuff as them?
06:00 < JohnLewis> Qcoder00: Yep. Unless they changed the password.
06:00 < Qcoder00> Not clever
06:00 < Qcoder00> Way to compromise your ops ;)
06:00 < Qcoder00> XD
06:00 < Qcoder00> XD
06:01 < nsh> JohnLewis, right :)
06:01 < JohnLewis> Qcoder00: They also logged a discussion with one of the ops here.
06:01 < JohnLewis> In Query.
06:01 < Qcoder00> Yeah
06:01 < Qcoder00> That is not done
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07:26 < koishi> i'm getting tired of writing all these words and seeing them all denied without reason
07:26 < koishi> but i guess it's good that i've brought a similar idea to discussion with about 10 different subjects
07:26 < koishi> at least those guys all seem a bit more reasonable
07:29 < Krenair> without reason?
07:29 < Krenair> link?
07:29 < koishi> oh god there are so many links now
07:30 < koishi> uh
07:30 < koishi> maybe i should pastebin some of it
07:30 < koishi> no that wouldn't be right
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07:32 < koishi> krenair: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:SF1_(television)#Potential_compromise_achieved_-_discussion_of_lede_paragraph_follows <-- scroll down to the last ┌┘ looking thing and read from there
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07:32 < koishi> at this point he's simply rejecting what i'm saying and not providing a clear reason behind these rejections, even after i've explained why his points might be in error numerous times elsewhere in the discussion
07:33 < koishi> quite honestly i'm tired of saying the same thing over and over again
07:34 < koishi> i'd also really like to know how he comes to the conclusion that brand names of tvs aren't official names somehow
07:34 < koishi> i mean "sega saturn" is an official name of that console, right? what makes a tv any different?
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08:00 < koishi> man this guy makes no sense
08:00 < koishi> "keep content on the content page"
08:00 < koishi> *argue about it everywhere else anyway*
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08:04 < mareklug> so Serena wins her French Open, 16th major, in 2 sets 64 64 over the Long Maria
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08:07 < mareklug> wow, Serena talks in French...
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08:15 * Ricardio is happy!
08:15 < Ricardio> i managed to restore a dvd that got corrupted!
08:17 < mareklug> Ricardio and how did you do that?
08:18 < tos> he offered the dvd less jail time if it testified against other corrupt dvds
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08:20 < Ricardio> mareklug: slow speed :)
08:21 < Ricardio> let's just say i managed to restore about 3 000 files
08:21 < mareklug> Ricardio so how did you do this low speed thing?
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08:24 < Ricardio> mareklug: hardware slow
08:24 < Ricardio> to 1X speed
08:25 < Ricardio> managed to restore 95% of the file i wanted to restore
08:25 < Ricardio> it was a RAR archive with a restore part
08:26 < Ricardio> wich managed to bump up the restore process to 100%
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08:38 < ToAruShiroiNeko> mareklug riot police uniforms to be pink, good or bad idea?
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08:43 < David_Stevenson> ToAruShiroiNeko: good, that way they can kick ass and look stylish while doing it.
08:43 < IDoH> hey
08:43 < David_Stevenson> hello IDoH :D
08:43 < IDoH> Hey David_Stevenson
08:43 < David_Stevenson> how are you
08:44 < IDoH> I'm all right. You?
08:44 < David_Stevenson> good :p
08:45 < IDoH> Good to hear
08:45 * David_Stevenson goes back to creating accounts
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08:49 < mareklug> someone on eBay (a shop, most likely, to judge from predatory pricing) wants $80 + $23 in shipping for a Macintosh IIci that has no drive and it is unknown if it even boots. Of course, no operating system, no software, no monitor. It's breathtaking how assholish some people can be.
08:51 < IDoH> mareklug: That's capitalism for ya.
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08:52 < mareklug> IDoH well, a nice person offered for bidding a G5 iMac with an operating system and software, and even exchanged its flakey power supply for a new one, all for 61 dollars and 45 shipping.
08:52 < IDoH> mareklug: Oh, cool.
08:53 < LittleCreature> is it appropriate to upload an image of a building (lighthouse) that you took while on private property (without permission)... it does not contain any people, etc... the image use policy doesnt seem to say anything about this?
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08:54 < mareklug> LittleCreature I don't think we have any rules for pictures taken while tresspassing.
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08:57 < LittleCreature> so it would be okay then?
08:57 < TParis> yup, it worked
08:57 < TParis> mt
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08:58 < wctaiwan> LittleCreature: nice criminal evidence?
08:59 < LittleCreature> well i took it years ago, and got caught/yelled at then
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08:59 < LittleCreature> and told them why i was on the property
08:59 < mareklug> LittleCreature wat. you want some kind of blessing? the property owner, in an unlikely event of recognizing the picture and location, may track you down and smite ya.
09:00 < LittleCreature> no... i was just more unsure of whether that is okay in terms of wikipedia
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09:00 < LittleCreature> because it hardly seems like you want to encourage people to go trespass on people's property to take images for wikipedia
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09:04 < mareklug> We have a picture of the Blackfeet indians taken on their land in 1900, no doubt tresspassing.
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09:04 < mattbuck> are they showing any skin? if so, we should delete it to please the wikipaedocrats
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09:06 < gde33> I've been reading the wikipedia edit guideline chinese whispers process. It's really funny, no one reads how a page got started.
09:07 < gde33> there is usually some one in 2004 who has all the right ideas
09:07 < gde33> sometimes he even gets noticed by 1 or 2 people.
09:07 < gde33> haha
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09:09 < gde33> in the beginning everyone was worried about accuracy, there is quite a bit of talk on how to deal with that.
09:10 < mattbuck> in the beginning there were answers
09:10 < mattbuck> but then they came along and changed
09:10 < mattbuck> all the questions, and the answers seemed to change
09:10 < gde33> there is to much material for me to get any sort of conclusion going
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09:11 < gde33> yes
09:12 < gde33> The other day I look at the way wp:crossbow evolved into countering systemic bias and how systemic bias then evolved into Cultural bias.
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09:13 < mattbuck> crossbow?
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09:13 < gde33> Most funny to me was the way Americans named a guideline after a weapon.
09:13 < gde33> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:CROSSBOW
09:14 < gde33> thats just to ironic in the context
09:14 < gde33> it even has a manifesto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:CROSSBOW#Manifesto
09:15 < mattbuck> it isn't in the mirror, it isn't on the page
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09:15 < gde33> sorry?
09:16 -!- Kingpin13 [~Kingpin13@Wikipedia/Kingpin13] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
09:16 < gde33> I find the evolution of the process interesting
09:16 < gde33> it seems cultural bias is the only kind that you can slap real numbers on
09:17 < gde33> doing things against bias is both nesasary and evil.
09:18 < gde33> single editor opinion is bad, consensus is bad, oppressing editor opinion is bad, lack of consensus is bad
09:18 < gde33> lol
09:19 * tos sighs
09:19 < gde33> the problem is described as white hetrosexual american males over 40
09:20 < gde33> hahaha
09:20 < Philon> gde33: hey that's what I read in Forbes
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09:21 < gde33> wp:WHAMO40
09:21 -!- KP13 [~Kingpin13@Wikipedia/Kingpin13] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
09:23 < gde33> annother funny picture I had in my head was to take content creation by topic and draw the graph up to the year 2500
09:23 < gde33> when we have our first 100 million rock bands
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09:26 < gde33> with so many fast growing categories we can only go from 1% to 0.5% science coverage. Back to 2% wont happen.
09:26 < gde33> I think it would be wise to put the knife in it and slice up the wiki at some stage
09:27 < gde33> could do it from the editor perspective, divide things by type of edit guidelines.
09:28 < gde33> could do it by size of the categories.
09:29 < gde33> A sports wiki or a music wiki should be much more tollerant to that kind of stuff
09:29 < gde33> I tried to approve articles about professional sports people one time. After looking at 100 or so I still didn't see one where I knew if to keep or if to delete.
09:30 -!- anona [~z31fcs@99-90-197-87.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
09:31 < gde33> Or could split topics by academic discipline
09:31 < gde33> give the mathmaticans their own wiki where we wont bother them.
09:31 -!- mrmist is now known as mist
09:32 < gde33> with an admin notice board that can read your mathmagics
09:32 < wctaiwan> mareklug: dang. I actually sort of what notifications back now.
09:32 < wctaiwan> it's inefficient to have to keep facebook open in case group mates message me.
09:33 < mareklug> wctaiwan once again, in English.
09:33 < wctaiwan> and distracting as well
09:34 -!- Kingpin13 [~Kingpin13@Wikipedia/Kingpin13] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
09:34 < Rcsprinter> Wikipedia has dropped from sixth to seventh most popular website
09:34 < gde33> the work is mostly done
09:34 < mareklug> what are the first 6?
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09:35 < Rcsprinter> mareklug: See http://www.alexa.com/topsites
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09:36 -!- IDoH [~IDoH@wikipedia/I-dream-of-horses] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com]
09:37 < mareklug> Rcsprinter probably will drop below the Indian and Chinese sites that are trailing us; just a matter of time
09:38 -!- NotASpy [~chatzilla@wikimedia/Nick] has joined #wikipedia-en
09:38 < gde33> thats just people who don't use hostfiles :P
09:39 < Ironholds> wctaiwan: you want notifications back? it's a preference ;p
09:39 -!- ikonia [~irc@unaffiliated/ikonia] has quit [Quit: leaving]
09:39 < wctaiwan> mareklug: I mean the Notification Centre in OS X.
09:39 -!- ikonia [~irc@unaffiliated/ikonia] has joined #wikipedia-en
09:39 < wctaiwan> Ironholds: ^
09:40 < gde33> I think people leave because other people needlessly mess with their contributions when there is no good reason to.
09:41 < gde33> it isn't so important that the wikipedia is perfect that we can loose contributors over tiny details
09:42 -!- anona [~z31fcs@99-90-197-87.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wikipedia-en
09:42 < Ironholds> wctaiwan: well, then you suck
09:43 * wctaiwan mutters something about community liaisons and WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA and all that
09:43 < gde33> wp:civil is into sympthoms
09:44 < wctaiwan> Ironholds: at least I was skilled enough to yank it from the OS despite a lack of a GUI option or a terminal command.
09:44 -!- ikonia [~irc@unaffiliated/ikonia] has quit [Quit: leaving]
09:45 < gde33> Personally I dont care howmany hundreds of times editors feel the need to attack me personally. It is where they combine it with reverting all my contributions.
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09:46 < mareklug> wctaiwan oh. that was to be "sort of WANT the notifications center back now"
09:46 < wctaiwan> ah, yes.
09:46 < wctaiwan> sorry, typo'd
09:46 < mareklug> the notifications center is very useful to me.
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09:47 < gde33> I think civility is very important but not the cause of loosing so many contributors.
09:47 < Ironholds> wctaiwan: this community liaison is on his weekend ;p
09:48 < mareklug> gde33 yup. we tighten quite a number of them with incivility.
09:48 < Ironholds> and tired. oh so very tired.
09:48 < wctaiwan> mareklug: it was occupying the prime location in the city of fitt's law without being useful
09:48 < wctaiwan> Ironholds: enjoy your rest
09:48 < mareklug> wctaiwan it is eminently useful. do restore it.
09:48 < wctaiwan> feel free to abuse me some more if it's going to make you feel better :P
09:48 < Ironholds> I'm not resting, I'm writing a training plan for the four staffers I've spent three weeks hiring :/
09:48 < wctaiwan> >.<
09:48 < gde33> hehe
09:48 < Ironholds> after that I'm going to be testing some regular expressions for parsing block logs and reverts.
09:49 < wctaiwan> mareklug: I do wish they'd allow me to move the icon around.
09:49 < Ironholds> after THAT I'm going to be implementing them, and after that I might rest.
09:50 < mareklug> wctaiwan i think there is a haxie (I know how you feel about those) that does that
09:50 < gde33> has etherpad ever been considered as a talk page tool?
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09:50 < wctaiwan> yeah, I might just continue living with the current situation, really
09:50 < gde33> or is it to resource expensive?
09:51 -!- anona [~z31fcs@99-90-197-87.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
09:51 < mareklug> wctaiwan on the Logitech Macintosh rechargable trackpad ther eis even a dedicated gesture to notifications centre: you swipe with two fingers from the edge.
09:52 < wctaiwan> I use a magic mouse.
09:52 -!- Kingpin13 [~Kingpin13@Wikipedia/Kingpin13] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
09:52 < mareklug> i got the logitech thinee for 19 bucks on maazon
09:52 < mareklug> it's the best 19 bucks i dropped on any mac peripheral
09:52 < wctaiwan> and you criticise me for my english? :P
09:52 < mareklug> thingee
09:52 < wctaiwan> I'm very happy in general with apple's input devices
09:53 < wctaiwan> the PC industry is finally catching up on the touchpad front
09:54 -!- Susan is now known as Elsie
09:55 < gde33> Would it be possible for a script to list applicable guidlines on the diff page?
09:55 < gde33> say one edits ==external links== then the diff gets a link to those guidelines
09:56 < gde33> adding a link [[foo bar (disambiguation)]] would create a link to the guide on "linking to dabs"
09:57 < gde33> could give each matching patern a score and show only the top 3 :)
09:57 -!- Rcsprinter [~rcsprinte@wikipedia/Rcsprinter123] has quit [Quit: Er, I quit...?]
09:59 < gde33> have a link to the talk page if the contribution contains the [dubious - discuss] template.
10:00 < gde33> {cn} could give a link to wp:rs
10:01 < gde33> that way if editors argue for a long time one of them is very likely to read the policy/guideline/help pages
10:01 < shimgray> reading back to when I came in, 2% science coverage is trivial - just depends on your definitions
10:01 < Shirik> gde33: That's actually a really neat idea
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10:01 < Shirik> yes it's certainly possible
10:02 < shimgray> we're at 5% (ish, slightly over) articles having a taxobox right now. that's science.
10:02 < gde33> shimgray: guidelines to write a wiki about A are not nesasrly helpful to write about B
10:02 < shimgray> (and just the squishy kind)
10:03 < gde33> Shirik: the guidelines are really a madhouse if you've never seen wikipedia before
10:04 < gde33> it has a bit of a leraning curve, specially in where to find things
10:04 -!- anona [~z31fcs@99-90-197-87.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wikipedia-en
10:06 < gde33> shimgray: it was about disproportonate growth into the distant future, say the year 2500 :)
10:06 < gde33> shimgray: what 1000 pop culture for 1 science article will grow into eventually
10:06 < Charmlet> Ironholds: You're the VisualEditor guy right?
10:07 < Charmlet> Or am I misreading my memory?
10:07 -!- JZTech101 [~jztech101@c-24-0-88-174.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
10:09 < gde33> shimgray: imagine a 20 GB science dump vs 400 GB with all sorts of things.
10:11 < Ironholds> Charmlet: I'm currently doing socialisation work on the visualeditor.
10:11 < Ironholds> well, currently == about to start, just hiring staff for it.
10:11 < YuviPanda> SOCIALIST?
10:11 < YuviPanda> THANKS, OBAMA!
10:11 < Ironholds> sod off.
10:11 < Charmlet> Ironholds: Would it be technically feasible to enable it for AfC drafts as an option between VE and standard?
10:12 < Ironholds> not in the slightest.
10:12 < YuviPanda> hmm?
10:12 * YuviPanda reads backlog
10:12 < Charmlet> it can't just be enabled for prefixes of Wikipedia talk:Articles for Creation/ ?
10:12 < YuviPanda> what is 'it'?
10:12 -!- wctaiwan [~wctaiwan@wikipedia/wctaiwan] has quit [Quit: wctaiwan]
10:13 < Charmlet> as the preference for logged in users is now, basically, have two tabs. an "VisualEditor" or "Traditional"
10:13 < Ironholds> Charmlet: not massively easily, and to be frank at the moment the priority is making it work generally.
10:13 < Ironholds> YuviPanda: the VE.
10:13 < shimgray> thing is, the longer WP runs the more it reflects reality (as we grow, we begin to fill up the small categories, and fill up new material as it grows)
10:13 < YuviPanda> ah,
10:13 -!- tos is now known as tosdinner
10:13 < shimgray> so if we're running at 100:1 pop culture:science in 2100, it's because there'll be 100x more pop culture to write about
10:13 < Charmlet> Makes sense. If there were consensus to attempt to enable it from the AFC wikiproject, would it be potentially possible to get that happening?
10:13 < Ironholds> *blinks*
10:13 < shimgray> which might be bad, but so what. that's the world we'll live in.
10:14 < shimgray> Charmlet, what would the benefit be? you'd be instantly confusing new users who edited anywhere else
10:14 < YuviPanda> VE automatically for AFC? Not the greatest of ideas, but I must say that enwiki can write a gadget to do that
10:14 < YuviPanda> so technically possible
10:14 < Ironholds> shimgray: no, after VE deployment
10:14 < shimgray> and we *want* new users to edit widely rather than just create AFCs
10:14 < YuviPanda> but we can also replace all characters by animated GIFs
10:14 < Ironholds> Charmlet: While I was sleeping, did consensus become a magical process that could create oodles of code from the aether?
10:14 < Charmlet> shimgray: er, no? These new editors, 99% of them their first edits are to AfC drafts.
10:14 < Charmlet> Ironholds: Nope, that's why I'm asking the people who'd have to create the oodles of code.
10:15 -!- OlEnglish [~me@wikipedia/OlEnglish] has quit [Quit: audi]
10:15 < Ironholds> then; no, there being consensus for it does not mean it will take priority over, let me see.
10:15 -!- xnockout [~xnockout@114.79.1.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
10:15 < Ironholds> Being able to handle references. Being able to handle images and templates reliably. Having it work in monobook.
10:15 < tosdinner> The new editor isnt good enough to compete with the old yet
10:15 < Ironholds> having it not be slow as hell or randomly die.
10:15 < Charmlet> makes sense.
10:15 < YuviPanda> Ironholds: making VE vs Edit Box for title prefixes should be simple-ish toggle, doable as a userscript in about 10 minutes. Does not require time from VE devs
10:15 < YuviPanda> :P
10:15 < Ironholds> tosdinner: check out the version currently deployed on MediaWiki.org.
10:15 < Charmlet> have fun with that then :P
10:15 < YuviPanda> and yes, 'not be slow as hell' is way more important
10:15 < shimgray> Charmlet, yes, new users who work on AFC are more likely to edit first in AFC :-) but my point is that we'll be making it harder and more confusing for them to edit somewhere else; interfaces should be consistent when possible
10:15 < tosdinner> I have not the best speeds of internet
10:15 < tosdinner> Thats not fun working with the new one
10:16 < Charmlet> shimgray: They almost never edit outside of AfC except for other articles (and then ANI when they don't listen)
10:16 < Ironholds> tosdinner: I'm sorry to hear that.
10:16 < Ironholds> YuviPanda: you want to write it, write it. I can't see it being prioritised over existing needs.
10:17 -!- slaporte [~slaporte@wikisource/slaporte] has quit [Quit: slaporte]
10:17 < dtm> this looks kinda weird. why did the person go from a long dash to a short dash? i thought the longer one was the emdash. when i search wikipedia for 'emdash', i get a long one. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=William_II_of_England&diff=next&oldid=556130512
10:17 < Ironholds> excellent, my second user tester has picked up.
10:17 * Ironholds cackles
10:17 < Charmlet> Ironholds: so, in VE, is there a way to do non bullet/number indents?
10:18 < YuviPanda> calm down, Ironholds. I was simply saying it is technically possible. I'm not asking anyone to do it.
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10:19 < gde33> assign people a wikilawyer and a jury then give everyone 20 min to resolve the issue or be banned
10:19 < gde33> your time starts now!
10:20 < dtm> lol
10:21 < tosdinner> i'm in the jury
10:21 < gde33> oh and afterwards we delete all traces of the whole event ever happening
10:21 < tosdinner> then private channel!
10:22 < gde33> private discussion groups
10:22 < Ironholds> Charmlet: as in, : ?
10:22 < Ironholds> or tab?
10:22 < Ironholds> I guess space, rather.
10:23 -!- kondi [~kondi@wikimedia/kondicherry] has joined #wikipedia-en
10:23 < Charmlet> Ironholds: :
10:23 < YuviPanda> hey kondi
10:23 < YuviPanda> did that JS get anywhere? :P
10:23 < kondi> hey YuviPanda
10:23 < Ironholds> Charmlet: Not so far? That's largely an edge case unless you're writing english lit articles.
10:24 < Charmlet> or talkpage responses.
10:24 < Ironholds> using the VE?
10:24 < Ironholds> We're not enabling the VE on talkpages.
10:24 < kondi> YuviPanda: yes, I almost finished it that day only. But we both were busy with exams :)
10:24 -!- Chenzw [~chenzw@wikimedia/Chenzw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
10:24 < Charmlet> oh, you aren't? okay then.
10:24 < YuviPanda> ah yes
10:24 < Ironholds> VE-on-talkpages will come as part of Flow, which includes auto-indenting.
10:24 < YuviPanda> kondi: mine is over :)
10:24 < Ironholds> the VE will be enabled on the mainspace.
10:24 < Charmlet> >.> flow... grrrrr
10:24 < kondi> YuviPanda: I still have to take 2 tests.
10:24 < Ironholds> if you don't like it you're welcome to either give me productive feedback on why you don't like it, stop talking or leave Wikipedia.
10:25 < YuviPanda> kondi: good luck!
10:25 < Ironholds> I say "leave Wikipedia" because we're turning it on and if we don't have feedback we can't act on it ;p
10:25 < kondi> YuviPanda: Thanks :) Would you like to see the script? It has a minor problem though
10:25 < Ironholds> and you won't much like the finished product if it contains things that concerns you and we don't have an opportunity to address them.
10:25 < YuviPanda> kondi: sure!
10:25 < KimiNewt> So
10:25 < Charmlet> Ironholds: heh, I could say because it, afaik, can't support as much stuff as it can now.
10:25 < YuviPanda> kondi: pastebin
10:25 < Ironholds> Charmlet: like what?
10:25 < Charmlet> Ironholds: as in, templates, multiple indents in one reply, etc.
10:25 < KimiNewt> Are there any general tips on booking inter-europe flights
10:25 < kondi> just a minute
10:25 < Charmlet> if anything, make VE work on TPs.
10:26 < Charmlet> but flow imo is the wrong way about it.
10:26 < KimiNewt> As in: don't fly ryanair, only fly ryanair
10:26 < Ironholds> Charmlet: multiple indents? What's the use case there? and no, it won't support templates, because it won't need to.
10:26 < Ironholds> and making the VE work on talkpages would not actually solve for the talkpage's problems. Some of them, yes, but not most of them.
10:26 < Charmlet> Ironholds: One I just had to do today: http://enwp.org/Talk:Alcoholics_Anonymous
10:26 -!- KP13 [~Kingpin13@Wikipedia/Kingpin13] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
10:26 < Charmlet> it also eliminates personal signatures :(
10:26 < Ironholds> Charmlet: so, you want bulleted lists, which the VE (that will be part of flow) handles?
10:26 -!- JZTech101 [~jztech101@c-24-0-88-174.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #wikipedia-en
10:26 < Ironholds> and yes, it does. I consider this a substantial feature.
10:27 < Charmlet> that it eliminates them?
10:27 < Ironholds> personalised signatures carry massive disadvantages.
10:27 < Ironholds> yes
10:27 -!- KP13 [~Kingpin13@Wikipedia/Kingpin13] has joined #wikipedia-en
10:27 < kondi> shit
10:27 < Ironholds> let me demonstrate why; that section you just linked?
10:27 < Charmlet> I enjoy being able to look down a TP and seeing, for example, the style of Automatic Strikeout's signature and knowing immeditately it's him
10:27 < Ironholds> tell me honestly that you can easily work out what User:Tattooedwaitress's username is and how to go to her talkpage from her signature without mousing over.
10:28 < kondi> YuviPanda: I think I only have a copy at office :\
10:28 < koishi> yeah that's kinda why i went for the whole red link thing
10:28 < Charmlet> That signautre is a little.. overboard.
10:28 < Ironholds> sure! And we'll have ways to personalise messaging. but signatures are totally the wrong thing to personalise, because they serve purposes BEYOND personalisation that personalisation destroys.
10:28 < koishi> i can't even think of a great talk page, haha
10:28 * kondi tries to locate it
10:28 < Ironholds> Charmlet: and it's not the only one by far.
10:28 < Charmlet> True.
10:28 < YuviPanda> kondi: aww. pastebin it to me later then. i'll still be around
10:28 < Charmlet> But there's by far more acceptable unique individualizatons.
10:28 < Ironholds> users who have [[userpage|first half of username]] [[user talk|second half]]
10:28 < kondi> YuviPanda: sure thing :)
10:28 < koishi> another thing with personalized signatures is that they make sorting through raw text a little harder than it really needs to be
10:28 < Ironholds> [[user page|username [[talk|t]] [[contributions|c]]
10:28 < Charmlet> Something's wrong with splitting the username?
10:28 < Charmlet> or having t and c?
10:29 < Ironholds> Charmlet: yes. totally.
10:29 < Charmlet> >.> how so?
10:29 < koishi> especially when you have people who color every single letter in their name a different color
10:29 < Ironholds> it offers a MASSIVELY inconsistent user experience. you're a user who doesn't know automatic strikeout or whoever, right? you want to contact them.
10:29 < Charmlet> koishi: that's overboard by far.
10:29 < Ironholds> enjoy substantial cognitive overhead to try and work out the hell how.
10:29 < Charmlet> That's why popups exist, to see beforehand :P
10:29 < gde33> I consider it a means to control clickthough rate, if you dont want people to talk to you you make it harder for them.
10:29 < YuviPanda> IIRC we should just support global avatars with animated PNGs
10:29 < Charmlet> gde33 lol.
10:29 < gde33> so it's bad
10:29 < Ironholds> popups are a disruptive gadget
10:29 < YuviPanda> should help show who is who at a glance
10:29 < koishi> gde33: good point
10:29 < Ironholds> specific to enwiki
10:30 < Charmlet> Ironholds: popups are an amazing gadget.
10:30 < Ironholds> we do not build to volunteer-maintained gadgets specific to enwiki.
10:30 < Ironholds> I'm not saying they're not, I'm saying they're disruptive.
10:30 < koishi> thing is, you're supposed to shun those people
10:30 < Ironholds> and that we're not going to build around them.
10:30 < koishi> everyone should be open to discussion
10:30 -!- russavia [~russavia@wikimedia/Russavia] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
10:30 < Charmlet> Ironholds: okay. You should build them into MediaWiki though :)
10:30 < Ironholds> YuviPanda: avatars are part of GlobalProfiles. I agree with them.
10:30 -!- TAP|away is now known as thineantiquepen
10:30 < Charmlet> as default for supported systems.
10:30 < YuviPanda> Ironholds: APNG FTW then :)
10:30 < koishi> why animated pngs specifically
10:31 < QueenOfFrance> Facewiki inc.
10:31 < Ironholds> Charmlet: this is the point where I stop paying attention to the conversation and go finish the training plan.
10:31 < YuviPanda> Everyone hates Animated GIFs
10:31 < koishi> are those really widespread? i still see more gif at the moment
10:31 < koishi> where did this come from? is gif a non-free thing?
10:31 < Charmlet> Ironholds: Okay :) This is the part that I do my government blogging >.>
10:31 -!- James_F is now known as James_F|Away
10:31 < YuviPanda> koishi: GIFs are color limited too.
10:31 < koishi> actually i don't think i've actually seen an animated png, lol
10:31 < Ironholds> enjoy. next time I ask for feedback, if you could resist the urge to troll me you might actually get something productive out of it.
10:31 < YuviPanda> koishi: and no alpha transparency
10:31 < koishi> yuvipanda: idk about you but that's a good thing
10:31 < koishi> actually you can do alpha transparency
10:31 < gde33> http://img.go-here.nl/ep-machine.gif
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10:32 < YuviPanda> koishi: see for example https://people.mozilla.com/~dolske/apng/demo.html
10:32 < koishi> at least in mga
10:32 < kondi> YuviPanda: got it :D
10:32 < Charmlet> >.>
10:32 -!- Kingpin13 [~Kingpin13@Wikipedia/Kingpin13] has joined #wikipedia-en
10:32 < YuviPanda> and because I'm scared people are taking me seriously at this point, please, NO APNGs IN ANYTHING
10:32 < koishi> why does google chrome not support animated pngs :(
10:32 < Charmlet> Ironholds: I wasn't trolling in the slightest. I think flow is the worst idea ever, and it's too much too soon.
10:32 < kondi> YuviPanda: http://pastebin.ca/2393413
10:32 -!- Pharos [~chatzilla@pool-96-224-16-128.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #wikipedia-en
10:33 < koishi> oh, it's a plugin
10:33 < Charmlet> If anything, one step at a time, not just "oh here's flow have fun" all at once.
10:33 < YuviPanda> koishi: it hasn't been 'ratified' by the PNG people
10:33 < koishi> grabbing
10:33 < koishi> hm
10:33 < YuviPanda> koishi: Netscape popularied Animated GIFs
10:33 < koishi> i think they should make a new format
10:33 < koishi> ".apng"
10:33 < YuviPanda> new extension? why?
10:33 < Charmlet> imo, anything that is self called a " for an ambitious project" by the creators is a bit too much too fast.
10:33 < YuviPanda> you know that extensions don't matter right?
10:33 < kondi> YuviPanda: lines 44 and 48 are buggy, else is okay I think
10:33 < koishi> because it's a new format
10:33 < YuviPanda> you can take an animated GIF, rename it 'jpeg' and it'll still animate
10:34 < QueenOfFrance> Charmlet: flow is just part of the whole Facewiki project, in which Wikipedia and MediaWiki is rebuilt so it can be used by the WMF staff of non-wikipedians, making it unsuable and pointless for our main prupose of building an encyclopedia, but this is not news and given the community elects only a minority of the board seats, it's irreversible, so if you don't like it, your only real option is to leave.
10:34 < koishi> "extensions don't matter"? really?
10:34 < gde33> YuviPanda: call it favicon.ico :P
10:34 < Charmlet> QueenOfFrance: I like the summary.
10:34 < koishi> yuvipanda: that's because it's still being read as such
10:34 -!- slaporte [~slaporte@wikisource/slaporte] has quit [Quit: slaporte]
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10:34 < YuviPanda> koishi: no, I'm not saying they don't matter to 'people'
10:34 < YuviPanda> they usually don't matter to machines
10:34 < Charmlet> QueenOfFrance: Way to fix that - make all WMF employees have experience with MediaWiki.
10:34 < Ironholds> QueenOfFrance: if you genuinely believe that I am happy to talk through your concerns properly. May I suggest we set up a skype or google hangout call?
10:35 < koishi> no, because all the image reading is unified. it is specifically set up to not care, which is completely different from every other file format ever.
10:35 < Ironholds> While noting that I find your statement rather offensive and hurtful.
10:35 < YuviPanda> koishi: but yeah, I think the GIF comparison doesn't apply
10:35 < koishi> that doesn't mean a thing
10:35 < NotASpy> MediaWiki, to be fair, is barely suitable for any of the users the WMF put it to these days.
10:35 < NotASpy> *uses
10:35 < Ironholds> Charmlet: almost all WMF employees do have experience with MediaWiki.
10:35 < Ironholds> Most of them /build/ it.
10:36 < Charmlet> Right, so why do they feel it's needed to change it when people don't want it.
10:36 * Ironholds blinks
10:36 < NotASpy> {{cn}}
10:36 < gde33> I wish media wiki would import wikipedia articles cleverly
10:36 < Charmlet> Let's say there's an RfC on enwp, and enwp doesn't want it. Will the WMF force it upon enwp?
10:36 < Ironholds> what's 'it'?
10:36 -!- RAN1_out is now known as RAN1
10:36 < QueenOfFrance> I think he means 'random feature X'
10:36 < Charmlet> flow, or anything for that matter
10:37 < YuviPanda> koishi: yeah, but I think nobody cares about APNG
10:37 < Charmlet> let's go with flow for this example.
10:37 < Charmlet> because I've seen a lot more opposition to anything "flow" like than I've seen support.
10:37 < YuviPanda> koishi: some of the RMSish folks were pushing it as an alternative to Animated GIF because of patent issues
10:37 < Ironholds> that's a stupid argument, but I'll address that in a second.
10:37 < YuviPanda> with GIF
10:37 < koishi> so it is a non-free thing
10:37 < gde33> ideal would be for the wmf to make such a mess of things that we can finally create a serious mirror :P
10:37 -!- Skokkie [~Skok@41-133-36-48.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #wikipedia-en
10:37 < Ironholds> With Flow, I can't speak with certainty to the Foundation's position, but if I am asked for my advice my response will be that I think we should hit 'deploy'.
10:37 < YuviPanda> koishi: yes, there were patents on it
10:37 < Ironholds> this is for several reasons.
10:37 < NotASpy> Charmlet: it's human nature. People don't queue up to show their support, they queue up to whinge like small children having seen a seagull steal their ice cream cone.
10:38 < YuviPanda> koishi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_Interchange_Format#Unisys_and_LZW_patent_enforcement
10:38 < Ironholds> The first is that 'the community' is not representative of the actual community.
10:38 < YuviPanda> koishi: it expired in 2003, so nobody cares anymore
10:38 < Ironholds> it is representative of those power users who choose to (a) get involved in meta-pedian activities and (b) showed up to this specific discussion.
10:38 -!- Skokkie [~Skok@41-133-36-48.dsl.mweb.co.za] has left #wikipedia-en []
10:38 < Ironholds> The second is that people who support this kind of change are incredibly UNlikely to turn up.
10:38 < Charmlet> Ironholds: Then start an RfC, and a watchlist notice. You'll get more people. You can't claim to be able to psychicly know that enwp wants flow unless you have proof through some sort of discussion.
10:38 < Ironholds> People show up when they're pissed off and/or feel like they can make a difference.
10:39 < gde33> hah
10:39 -!- Guerillero [~Gueriller@wikipedia/Guerillero] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
10:39 < Charmlet> And you cannot claim that they exist unless there's proof they exist.
10:39 < Ironholds> Why would you show up to vote for something if you like it and think it'll be deployed regardless? It'll be deployed regardless.
10:39 -!- Skokkie [~Skok@41-133-36-48.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #wikipedia-en
10:39 < Charmlet> That's the problem.
10:39 < Ironholds> and I've never said enwiki wants flow.
10:39 < Ironholds> I've said enwiki needs flow and is getting flow.
10:39 < koishi> what is flow
10:39 < Charmlet> The WMF shouldn't "regardless" deploy stuff that enwp doesn't ask for unless they get support.
10:39 < koishi> also i will vote for a thing to put it on record
10:39 < koishi> and because hey maybe a bunch of crazies will appear out of nowhere and go NO NO NO NO
10:40 < Ironholds> that's your opinion and you're welcome to it.
10:40 < koishi> because i've seen stuff like this happen
10:40 < kondi> YuviPanda: did you see that?
10:40 < QueenOfFrance> Ironholds: are you saying that you know best and the WMF knows best than the community who actually builds the encyclopedia, maintains it, etc?
10:40 < gde33> I wish media wiki would import wikipedia articles cleverly, then the 90% troll on wikipedia can start their own topical wiki and be of GREAT use to us.
10:40 < YuviPanda> koishi: no, got lost in something else. moment
10:40 < Ironholds> QueenOfFrance: not in the slightest. the community has vast expertise in a large number of areas we suck at.
10:40 < Charmlet> Ironholds: You're saying the WMF should be able to just psychicly determine invisible consensus, and then act upon it in every possible way when the actual proven consensus is that they don't want something.
10:40 < QueenOfFrance> Ironholds: but you just said that enwiki will get flow regardless or whether it does or doesn't want it.
10:40 < koishi> koishi_kondi
10:40 < Ironholds> Charmlet: also not what I said.
10:40 < Ironholds> QueenOfFrance: let me finish.
10:40 < QueenOfFrance> Because you/the WMF are of the opinion that it needs it
10:41 < QueenOfFrance> bah
10:41 < Charmlet> Ironholds: I boiled it down, that's pretty much what you said when you said the WMF will deploy it regardless.
10:41 * YuviPanda watches with slight amusement disagreement about software that hasn't even had a team fully formed to start building it yet
10:41 < Ironholds> again, let me finish. Again, I am happy to talk through these concerns if you want me to set some time aside for it.
10:41 < koishi> well if the wmf really truly wants en.wiki to suffer with whatever, they are perfectly fine with doing so
10:41 < koishi> anything else is external
10:42 < Ironholds> So. The community is excellent in a vast number of areas where the WMF sucks. for example; if I'm building a feature that'll hit power users, and 'the community' turns up with concerns, I should listen to them, because they're legitimate. You guys know what power users need far better than we do. If I'm building a feature that'll hit article content, same thing is true.
10:42 -!- Betacommand [~Betacomma@unaffiliated/betacommand] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
10:42 < NotASpy> I fail to see how any community can decide what they do or don't want when they have no experience of it. Deploy Flow, see how it goes, allow time to become accustomed to it, if it's utterly unworkable then and only then can the complaining start.
10:42 < gde33> QueenOfFrance: the community will never approve any remotely creative idea. It is either have them try stuff or nothing at all.
10:42 < YuviPanda> kondi: looks goodish, except for the inconsistent application of spacing conventions
10:42 < koishi> *it is perfectly fine for them to do so
10:42 < YuviPanda> kondi: sometimes it is using mediawiki style 'space after paren' sometimes it is not
10:43 < kondi> YuviPanda: I keep forgetting about following the conventions. I was trying to get it to work :
10:43 < Ironholds> but 'the community' is not the sum totality of every editor, or every editing perspective, or every potential editor. Far from it; it's a particularly narrow subset of users with certain traits in common. I can totally accept 'we don't want this because it will suck for us'. I cannot accept 'we don't want this because it will suck for wikipedia', because you don't speak for wikipedia any
10:43 < Ironholds> more than I do.
10:43 < kondi> :\
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10:43 < YuviPanda> kondi: and I *think* everything from line 12 to 21 can be replaced with a single complicated selector
10:43 * kondi looks
10:43 < YuviPanda> kondi: hehe, don't worry - once enough people nag you about it you'll get used to doing it automatically
10:43 < Charmlet> Ironholds: The only thing the WMF should claim to not suck at (no offense) is things of a legal nature, or global policies. People who claim it'll suck for them are voicing their opinion. If nobody shows up to say "it'll be great for us", you can't assume those people exist. It's just not right. At all.
10:44 < Ironholds> Charmlet: 'no offense' does not, weirdly, prohibit offense being taken. In my experience it's normally added to a sentence when someone knows it'll be offensive.
10:44 < YuviPanda> kondi: so essentially, you are selecting ids that don't contain, as direct children, anything without an id defined or with an id 'editform' or 'togglemode'
10:44 < YuviPanda> kondi: with the ':not' selector I think you can do that.
10:44 < Ironholds> if we're talking Flow; I fully agree that some bits of Flow are going to suck for power users. But I would make two points; first, this is a very preliminary example of software. We haven't even put the team together to build it yet. Rejecting it or approving it based on what exists so far is a bad idea because what exists so far is a draft of a draft of a draft of what will actually be
10:44 < Ironholds> done.
10:44 < YuviPanda> kondi: jquery's selectors are a superset of css ones
10:45 < YuviPanda> not a strict subset
10:45 -!- Kingpin13 [~Kingpin13@Wikipedia/Kingpin13] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
10:45 < Charmlet> Ironholds: I was meaning no personal offense. I feel the WMF as a whole sucks at anything other than legal and global policy relating to extremely essential topics.
10:45 < Ironholds> the fact that there are so many debates and arguments over it is, I think, the result of us being more transparent about the early drafts (and the fact that they usually suck)
10:45 -!- KP13 [~Kingpin13@Wikipedia/Kingpin13] has joined #wikipedia-en
10:45 < kondi> YuviPanda: ah, didn't know about them. fixing now
10:45 < Ironholds> you should've seen the first design for page curation. VASTLY different.
10:45 < YuviPanda> kondi: see http://api.jquery.com/category/selectors/
10:45 < kondi> YuviPanda: seeing that only!
10:45 < Charmlet> Ironholds: I'm willing to wait for an alpha or beta, and I'll definitely test it out before issuing my final opinion. All I'm saying is that from what I've heard about it, it's too much too fast.
10:45 < YuviPanda> kondi: :D
10:46 < Qcoder00> Evening Ironholds
10:46 -!- tosdinner is now known as tos
10:46 < Ironholds> second; power users are not our only demographic. When I say 'certain traits in common' what I mean is that everyone who is invited to the conversation /by definition/ is someone who can handle the current talkpages without tearing their hair out.
10:46 < Charmlet> Ironholds: Isn't there already a "threaded talk" extenstion or something in MediaWiki? That still allows templates and some individuality iirc, that would be best to enable before flow completely imo.
10:46 < Qcoder00> Ironholds: You wouldn't happen to know any heads of University Law Depts would you?
10:46 < Ironholds> Charmlet: LiquidThreads is a piece of shit on fifteen different levels.
10:46 < Ironholds> ...okay, so 3. Still.
10:46 < YuviPanda> ^ +1, and devs don't want to touch it either.
10:46 < Charmlet> Well, it's a hellofalot better than enabling every idea possible for talkpages all at once under flow.
10:47 < QueenOfFrance> LiquidThreads is quite possibly the most painful thing I've dealt with on Wikimedia, and I don't understand why it's deployed on some wikis :D
10:47 < QueenOfFrance> But
10:47 < Ironholds> Charmlet: you're right, we were planning on simply flipping the switch instantly and deploying it everywhere.
10:47 < shimgray> Charmlet, you think the discussion on Flow is bad, you should see what people said about LQT :-)
10:47 < gde33> what is so bad about it?
10:47 < Ironholds> you read that in our deployment plan, right?
10:47 < Ironholds> wait. We haven't written a deployment plan yet. Where did you read it?
10:47 < Charmlet> Ironholds: You're saying that you're going to deploy all of these talkpage fixes as a part of flow.
10:47 < Ironholds> yup.
10:47 < Charmlet> Ironholds: I never said it'd be a flipped switch, ofc there'll be beta and stuff.
10:47 < Ironholds> yep.
10:47 < Charmlet> But you're still putting TONS of ideas into one package.
10:48 < Charmlet> Split them up.
10:48 < Ironholds> totally. how else would we do it?
10:48 < Ironholds> the basic structure of flow is vastly different from the structure of talkpages.
10:48 < Charmlet> Threaded messaging - one package, one switch, one extension.
10:48 < Ironholds> there's no way to package that /alone/ as a 'small' change.
10:48 < YuviPanda> kondi: you can also pass selectors to .children() etc
10:48 < Ironholds> anyway, we're getting off my point here, which is: the very nature of what we're discussing biases the people who turn up to the conversation
10:48 < Ironholds> yes, I am not suprised to see that most users think talkpages are wonderful
10:48 < Charmlet> Ironholds: Special:SecurePoll
10:48 < gde33> I think it is rediculous to archive discussions by time stamp.
10:49 < gde33> how does the new system deal with that?
10:49 < Charmlet> Ironholds: It's radio buttons or whatever, it's easy and intuitive.
10:49 < kondi> YuviPanda: ah. I'll read the docs first I guess
10:49 < NotASpy> to be fair, talk pages and notifications have been broken for years and years and years. Odd templates, bots, strange archiving, lack of history, something needs to be done and I doubt unless Flow is exceptionally horrific, it'll be anything other than a vast improvement.
10:49 < YuviPanda> kondi: :) that's one of the things about jQuery, sometimes 'too' fleible
10:49 < Ironholds> Charmlet: so obviously we get a substantial proportion of the community voting in board of trustees elections, then?
10:49 < YuviPanda> kondi: means a lot of features exist that we don't know about
10:49 < Charmlet> Ironholds: >.> that's apples and oranges.
10:49 < Ironholds> wait. No, we don't. Because again, part of the disconnect is in interest - a lot of people simply don't care about metapedian discussions.
10:50 < Charmlet> Ironholds: I know many wikipedians who could care less about the WMF BoT.
10:50 < kondi> YuviPanda: certainly appears so :D
10:50 < Charmlet> but if you have a SecurePoll on enwp about flow, people will come, because it directly affects them.
10:50 < Ironholds> Charmlet: that you know them suggests they're power users who can handle talkpages.
10:50 < YuviPanda> kondi: I learnt a fair bit CR'ing other people's code :P
10:50 < Ironholds> and again, I have no interest in making a software change into a vote, because it's not a vote.
10:50 < Charmlet> No, I know tons of new users (<1000 edits) that use talkpages, like them, and would vote to not change them.
10:50 < YuviPanda> kondi: and looking at code written by people who are pretty neat (good parts of MW's newly written JS can come under this)
10:51 < Ironholds> the fact that <1000 is new is a hint all on its own ;p. Show me people with <50 who like talkpages.
10:51 < Charmlet> Ironholds: Right, it's "WMF knows best here enwp deal with this even though we aren't asking whether you want it or not, we will take feedback but then just deploy it eventually anyway"
10:51 < Ironholds> Charmlet: yes! you've got it.
10:51 < Charmlet> Ironholds: very few people with <50 edits even know what a talkpage is, much less have a need to post on it.
10:51 < Ironholds> we'll take feedback, incorporate that feedback where it makes sense, and then deploy it.
10:51 < Ironholds> they have no need to post on it? Where do they go for help or assistance?
10:51 < gde33> I would use an existing discussion platform
10:51 < Charmlet> Ironholds: But what if the majority of feedback is that it's the wrong direction alltogether.
10:51 < YuviPanda> gde33: like what?
10:51 < Ironholds> and don't say the documentation, because have you ever tried to use HELP:TABLE?
10:52 < Charmlet> Ironholds: They don't. They edit an AfC draft 10ih timess, then when it'd declined they leave.
10:52 < gde33> YuviPanda: anything would work, give every article a php bbs with categories and admins
10:52 < QueenOfFrance> Ironholds: what's wrong with help:table :o
10:52 < YuviPanda> ...
10:52 < shimgray> ...you know we have people who do other things than AFC, right?
10:52 < Charmlet> QueenOfFrance: It doesn't use flow.
10:52 < NotASpy> Charmlet: the majority of feedback will be it's the wrong direction, because people who like things don't bother saying anything. You need to look at other metrics too.
10:52 < kondi> YuviPanda: I do refer and try to follow them (except for the conventions :P)
10:52 < Ironholds> Charmlet: okay, I'm wandering away now.
10:52 < YuviPanda> kondi: :)
10:52 < Charmlet> shimgray: you know the vast majority of new users use AfC only, right?
10:52 < QueenOfFrance> Charmlet: no, that is not what he's saying
10:52 < Ironholds> ditto QueenOfFrance. I have more important things to do than listen to bad-faith accusations.
10:52 < QueenOfFrance> He is likely saying that iti s too complicated
10:52 < Ironholds> Charmlet: that's objectively false.
10:52 < gde33> YuviPanda: etherpad in stead of talk pages
10:53 < Charmlet> QueenOfFrance: I was kidding.
10:53 < Ironholds> anyway. I'm going to go off and do work that doesn't unnecessarily shout at me.
10:53 < YuviPanda> gde33: mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:EtherEditor
10:53 < Charmlet> I don't remember shouting.
10:53 < Charmlet> but okay.
10:53 < Ironholds> if either of you want to actually discuss your concerns openly I am happy to address them. Drop me an email; okeyes@wikimedia.org
10:53 < Ironholds> tara
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10:53 < gde33> YuviPanda: obvious enough
10:53 < RAN1> Well, that was evidently in good faith.
10:53 < gde33> YuviPanda: these people didn't work hard enough on the code base? what is wrong with it?
10:53 -!- James_F|Away is now known as James_F
10:53 < YuviPanda> gde33: with what? EtherEditor?
10:53 < gde33> YuviPanda: ye
10:54 < YuviPanda> gde33: not enough people working on it, plus it's sortof not really scalable
10:54 < YuviPanda> it ties into an etherpadlite background
10:54 < marktraceur> gde33: It's incomplete because I moved on to other stuff
10:54 < shimgray> Charmlet, amazingly, having sat with 400 people over the last year and shown them how to use Wikipedia, I have some idea how they use it.
10:54 < shimgray> </grump>
10:54 < gde33> but in theory, if it would be finished, would it be better or worse than our talk pages?
10:54 < marktraceur> gde33: sucheta did *some* cleanup on it, but it's a little broken because A) We want to change how it works and B) The glue between MW and EPL is out of date
10:55 < Charmlet> shimgray: 400 people that are interested in Wikipedia is not representative of the majority who have no interest other than editing and nothing behind the scenes, ie talkpages and metadiscussions etc.
10:55 < NotASpy> gde33: nothing can be worse than our current talk page system. It's seriously not fit for purpose.
10:55 < gde33> what other FOSS colaboration tools are out there? What would a serious developer use?
10:55 < marktraceur> gde33: EPL isn't really built for threaded conversations, so I'd say worse.
10:55 < shimgray> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&contribs=newbie has 15 AFC edits in 100 listed
10:55 < gde33> marktraceur: the idea is there :)
10:55 < shimgray> let's look at 500... hold on while it loads...
10:55 < marktraceur> How do you mean?
10:56 < gde33> NotASpy: first thing I thought when I looked at a talk page was "Oh so where then is the forum?"
10:56 < YuviPanda> gde33: I don't think EtherPad should be used as a discussion system. Could be useful for collaborative editing but
10:56 < RAN1> Here's my question: Does Flow support wikitext?
10:56 < Charmlet> shimgray: take out vandalism and edits that are later reverted, and you get a much higher number of AfC/new article edits.
10:56 < shimgray> 59 AFC, 95 userspace, so that's ~150 = 30% AFC or sandboxish edits
10:56 < gde33> YuviPanda: have you used it in any serious way?
10:56 < YuviPanda> RAN1: Flow doesn't exist, yet.
10:56 < YuviPanda> gde33: etherpadlite? I've used Etherpad a fair bit.
10:56 < RAN1> Does Flow as a concept support wikitext?
10:56 < YuviPanda> gde33: collaboratively taking notes or editing
10:57 < QueenOfFrance> RAN1: to an extent, as far as I understand it
10:57 < gde33> YuviPanda: is there other web software that could be just as useful?
10:57 < RAN1> To an extent = ?
10:57 < Charmlet> RAN1: afaik it won't support templates, and only basic images.
10:57 < gde33> YuviPanda: who knows, an agenda planner? O_O
10:57 < RAN1> Well, then it's pretty much useless.
10:57 < shimgray> Charmlet, we're still going to have to go a long way to get to your "vast majority". and why are we counting unproductive AFC edits but discounting unproductive mainspace ones?
10:57 < gde33> YuviPanda: stack exchange?
10:58 < YuviPanda> gde33: i think our needs are unique, hard to co-opt a tool full time
10:58 < Charmlet> shimgray: I never said we were counting unproductive afC edits.
10:58 < YuviPanda> gde33: there's this new thing the guys behind stackexchange built
10:58 < YuviPanda> and is open source
10:58 < Charmlet> shimgray: I said take out *all* vandalism or unproductive eidts.
10:58 < YuviPanda> forgot it's name
10:58 < YuviPanda> gde33: discourse
10:58 < YuviPanda> gde33: check that out
10:58 < gde33> YuviPanda: I know
10:58 < shimgray> well, we have to; AFC doesn't get reverted in the same way mainspace does, even if equally junk
10:59 * YuviPanda got his first article created a week ago, is quite happy about it
10:59 < Charmlet> ... discount it if it's a bad edit. regardless of reverts.
10:59 < shimgray> AFC is one way in which new users engage. My considered experience is that a) it is not the most common way in which they engage, and b) that it is certainly not the most representative
10:59 < YuviPanda> gde33: plus technologically, mediawiki isn't really going to be good with letting us 'integrate' anything like that
10:59 -!- lukas|away is now known as lukas23
10:59 < gde33> YuviPanda: Thats not for you to decide but for them
10:59 < gde33> lol
10:59 < shimgray> remember, also, that here we are looking at "new users" = newly registered accounts
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11:00 < YuviPanda> gde33: ? 'them'?
11:00 < gde33> YuviPanda: it can be good if people want it to be
11:00 < shimgray> "new users" in the sense of "people editing for the first time" includes a lot of IPs, who have a very different contribution pattern
11:00 < YuviPanda> well, sure
11:01 < YuviPanda> it's just that with the architecture, etc of MW, the 'path of least resistance' isn't going to be 'integrate with a new tool with a completely different stack'
11:01 < YuviPanda> it's how PHP gets a lot of crap for being 'horrible' - it is because the 'path of least resistance' in PHP is bad code
11:02 < kondi> YuviPanda: How would one use :not recursively?
11:03 < kondi> or is that even possible?
11:03 < YuviPanda> kondi: .children(':not <something>')?
11:03 < YuviPanda> or .find
11:03 < YuviPanda> .children is one level only
11:03 < YuviPanda> .find is recursive
11:03 < ToAruShiroiNeko> mareklug does it come with wearranty? the macintosh II I mean
11:03 < kondi> ah. Then I think .find would be better
11:04 < mareklug> it does not matter. no way is it worth 102 delivered.
11:04 < YuviPanda> kondi: :)
11:04 < ToAruShiroiNeko> mareklug people buy more expensive items for decoration
11:04 < ToAruShiroiNeko> http://www.dha.com.tr/canli-yayin/ <- woha
11:05 < mareklug> that reminds me -- someone cleaned and restored a Mac IIci case, just the external plastic box, and was selling that for a few tens of dollars.
11:05 < YuviPanda> tens of dollars?!
11:05 < gde33> lol
11:06 < YuviPanda> should be fun to buy that and put stuff in it
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11:06 < Swarlley> ToAruShiroiNeko: can you help me in math
11:06 < mareklug> it is a nice rectangular plastic box. you could use it for cat house.
11:06 < YuviPanda> mareklug: house a raspberry pi
11:06 < YuviPanda> or a microatx
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11:06 < mareklug> YuviPanda it is way to big. maybe a whole array of RaspberryPis
11:07 < YuviPanda> microatx + NAS
11:07 < Qcoder00> YuviPanda: Hi
11:07 < Qcoder00> Want something to do?
11:07 < YuviPanda> ohai Qcoder00
11:07 < YuviPanda> depends :P
11:07 < gde33> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_collaborative_software
11:08 < YuviPanda> gde33: that also prolly needs deadpool tagging :P
11:08 < YuviPanda> and a reading of http://www.jwz.org/doc/groupware.html
11:10 < YuviPanda> Qcoder00: what were you about to tell me?
11:11 < Qcoder00> YuviPanda: Do you know much about Indian Railways in your region?
11:11 < YuviPanda> not much
11:11 < YuviPanda> sadl
11:11 < YuviPanda> y
11:11 < YuviPanda> their ticketing system sucks so I mostly just use the buses
11:11 < YuviPanda> User:Planemad, on the otherhand
11:11 < YuviPanda> can be considered a certified train maniac
11:11 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Swarlley probably
11:11 < YuviPanda> (is my friend)
11:11 < Qcoder00> OK do you know much about Buses in your region?
11:11 < ToAruShiroiNeko> what kind of math
11:11 < ToAruShiroiNeko> does it involve numbers?
11:11 < YuviPanda> Qcoder00: dpeends on 'much' and 'your region' :)
11:12 < YuviPanda> I literally just take one set of them (CHennai <-> Bangalore)
11:12 < YuviPanda> really, I probably know more history of programming languages than my own town
11:12 < Qcoder00> I was at one point trying to get a Wiki project started to record transit system distances...
11:12 < Qcoder00> Globally
11:13 < YuviPanda> ah
11:14 < Qcoder00> I figured given the interest the Indian Sub continent was as good as any place to spark interest
11:17 < Shirik> gde33: Question
11:17 < Shirik> I'm almost done with the script you were talking about earlier
11:17 < mareklug> YuviPanda the fucker wants 106 dollars + 15.75 shipping in the USA but will ship worldwide http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beatifully-restored-Apple-Macintosh-IIci-Casing-/251286081052?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item3a81d14e1c
11:17 < Shirik> that shows you guidelines/policies associated with an edit
11:17 < YuviPanda> lawl
11:17 < gde33> YuviPanda: I know, just create a colaboration software api and pump out the raw data in json/xml/etc
11:17 < mareklug> it is a shop. the shops on eBay have the most predatary listings.
11:17 < gde33> Shirik: :D
11:17 < YuviPanda> yeah, i'm never buying frome bay
11:17 < Shirik> but where do you want it to show up?
11:17 < YuviPanda> *ebay
11:17 < Shirik> underneath the diff?
11:17 < gde33> Shirik: on the DIFF page
11:18 < Shirik> yeah but where on it
11:18 < gde33> to extend the description
11:18 < YuviPanda> mareklug: need to try dealextreme though
11:18 < Shirik> like after the edit summary?
11:18 < gde33> shimgray: yes, above the changes
11:19 < gde33> under previous/next edit
11:19 < mareklug> YuviPanda I bought a Powerbook G3 Series Walstreet II PDQ 233MHz 14" in mint condition with Photoshop 7, Adobe Illustrator 10, FileMaker Pro, Microsoft Office and of course Mac OS 9.2.2 (the last classic) for 91 delivered. on eBay. So buying from individuals makes sense.
11:19 < YuviPanda> that's cheap
11:19 < gde33> previous/next should really be in a position where it doesn't move between pages
11:19 < YuviPanda> but only 91?
11:19 < YuviPanda> is there enough of these going around that the prices is that low?
11:19 < mareklug> 71 + 20 shipping. I won it at bidding
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11:19 < mareklug> the seller was obviously not in it to make the money
11:20 < mareklug> shops are selling mac classics for over 120
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11:20 < gde33> why does "show changes" include the whole page really?
11:21 < gde33> the diff I mean
11:21 < gde33> it makes paging though the pages very slow
11:22 < gde33> we could make an ajax interface then pull the last 20 changes in a single xml and show them in 0.001 seconds after clicking :P
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11:24 < gde33> on a random page it currently takes 6-7 seconds to get to the next page for me
11:24 < Bradford> ._.
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11:28 < gde33> replace the talk pages with a newsgroups server.
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11:37 < gde33> Shirik: it seems there could be a lot of possible matching paterns
11:38 < Shirik> sure
11:38 < Shirik> I've set it up in such a way that that should be easily modifiable
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11:58 < kriminologia> Is somebody from WikiProject Anime and manga there?
12:04 < ToAruShiroiNeko> always
12:04 < ToAruShiroiNeko> we are all geeks after all
12:05 < Pharos> not me!
12:09 < kriminologia> I heard the article Eyeshield 21 is a GA nominee
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12:10 < Ricardio> sup dickpigs?
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12:15 < Qcoder00> Huh?
12:16 < Pharos> i believe "pigdicks" would have been more insulting, if that was the intention
12:17 < Pharos> or at least more comprehensible
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12:17 < ITAC> I'm mad
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12:39 < Qcoder00> Me is suprised...
12:40 < Qcoder00> Someone another channel claimed some Sci Fi stuff had Gothic themes in it...
12:40 < Qcoder00> I thought about Forbidden Planet, and they nay be correct , but I can't think of other examples...
12:41 < Qcoder00> Any film-theory people in?
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12:51 < Pharos> lots of scifi has gothic stuff
12:51 < Shirik> gde33: Imagine this diff http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Shirik&diff=488706044&oldid=488705869
12:52 < Shirik> should it test everything or just the red stuff?
12:52 < Pharos> Qcoder00: best example is Metropolis
12:52 < Pharos> and Frankenstein
12:52 < Pharos> if you mean scifi films
12:52 < Qcoder00> Metropolis has Gothic themes?
12:52 < Pharos> of course
12:52 < Qcoder00> Pharos: I include literature
12:52 < Pharos> I mean the old German silent film
12:52 < Pharos> not the Japanese anime
12:52 < Qcoder00> Yeah I thought you did
12:53 < Qcoder00> Is Metropolis pD yet?
12:53 < Pharos> you remember Dr Rotwang's house?
12:53 < Qcoder00> Vaugely
12:53 < Pharos> Metropolis' PD status is controversial!
12:53 < Pharos> his house was extremely Gothic
12:54 < Pharos> and he was totally a Gothic-Faustian villain
12:54 < Qcoder00> The example used elsewhere was 'Forbidden Planet'
12:54 < Qcoder00> But I think there are some others of the same era... (albiet Not American)
12:55 < Pharos> I don't think that's as obvious an example
12:55 < Pharos> i guess Frankenstein would be the uber Gothic thing
12:55 < Qcoder00> It has themes about a monster from the Id and so on
12:55 < Qcoder00> (re Forbidden Planet)
12:55 < Pharos> Freud is post-gothic, no?
12:55 < Qcoder00> Not quite
12:56 < gde33> Shirik: I think work down the guidelines and wonder with each one of them if they can be detected
12:56 < Pharos> he's certainly post-Frankenstein
12:56 < Qcoder00> Freud was already publishing by the time Gothic was still in popular circulation)
12:56 < gde33> Shirik: the section is relevant
12:56 < Qcoder00> Pharos: is this worth raising on the reference desk?
12:56 < Pharos> maybe
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12:57 < Pharos> personally, i think Freudianism is modernist, not githic
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12:57 < Pharos> i'm sure people at RD could argue at length about this kind of thing :)
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12:58 < Qcoder00> Hmm... The disscusion started because some came up with idea of goth-fi
12:58 < Qcoder00> For Science Fiction with Gothic like themes
12:58 < gde33> lol
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12:58 < Qcoder00> But I wasn't sure the distinction was so clear cut
12:58 < Pharos> that is a no-no neologism :P
12:58 < nascar> what
12:58 < nascar> is
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12:58 < nascar> What did it show for both of my disconnections?
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12:59 < nascar> o.o
12:59 < Pharos> Frankstenstein is Gothic, Rotwang is Gothic
12:59 < Pharos> even a lot of Dr Who is Gothic
12:59 < Pharos> i don't know if that makes it a notable genre
12:59 < Pharos> *subgenre
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12:59 < gde33> we can give every editor a naughty level with an animated naughtyometer
13:00 < Pharos> i guess the article would be [[Gothic themes in science fiction]]
13:00 < Pharos> if you really want to write it
13:00 < NotASpy> I bet there's not enough animation to give half of our editors an appropriate animated naughtyometer
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13:00 < gde33> with wurms crawling out
13:01 < Pharos> Lovecraft is Gothic of course
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13:01 < BlastHardcheese> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RaygunGothic
13:01 < Pharos> and Poe I guess, though he's a bit pre-SF
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13:02 * kondi is bored
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13:02 < Pharos> thetvtropes thing is poorly named
13:03 < Pharos> clean shiny things are the *opposite* of "gothic"
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13:07 < mareklug> Isarra how is your new machine treating you?
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13:08 < Qcoder00> Pharos: I'll put in a request
13:08 < Qcoder00> I'm not a film historian to be able to write it
13:08 < Qcoder00> And yet Some Lovecraft stuff has been used as the basis for Science Fiction
13:08 < Qcoder00> Erm.... What's 'The Thing' based on?
13:08 < Qcoder00> Thanks you
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13:09 < Pharos> it's a ripoff of Lovecraft
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13:09 < Pharos> At The Mountains of Madness
13:09 < Qcoder00> :)
13:09 < Qcoder00> Some Science Fiction like tales were written as early as the 12 th century apparently
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13:09 < Pharos> i don't really believe that
13:09 < Qcoder00> But modern era Sci-fi starts around the time you get things like X-rays, and Tesla's work on AC
13:09 < Qcoder00> In fact some of the early Silent Films classified as Sci-Fi are more Fantasy films ... with Gothic Elments...
13:09 < Qcoder00> So...
13:09 < Qcoder00> And yes I think I will put in a request for that article title...
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13:10 < Pharos> you could count the bible as scifi if you really wanted to...
13:10 < Isarra> mareklug: New one's fine. Now the old one is dead.
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13:10 < mareklug> Isarra how did it die?
13:11 < Pharos> Lovecraft was more or less a scifi author himself
13:11 < Isarra> Power supply. New one is in the mail.
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13:12 < mareklug> Isarra how did you detect the cause, that it was the power supply? I am asking as I am trying to raise a sick Macintosh IIci and it may be the power supply or the logic board.
13:12 < Pharos> the history of scifi could be said to have started at 3 or 4 different times in history
13:12 < Shirik> gde33: How does this look? http://gyazo.com/83e46e0b1fadf36ec0a2afefafd877c1
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13:13 < Isarra> mareklug: In truth I didn't, it was just the most logical explanation - voltages were off, things weren't getting enough power to even turn on, power supply was already known to be questionable...
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13:14 < Isarra> So put in a different (also questionable power supply) and things seemed... less bad.
13:14 < Qcoder00> Thank you Pharos
13:14 < Qcoder00> Pharos: Can you help me request an article?
13:14 < mareklug> Isarra how do you measure the voltage for a power supply? I have a voltmeter here.
13:14 < Isarra> So maybe if I use a power supply that isn't known to make crazy noises, had a fan tied to its cables, or sometimes fails to turn on, it'll work? >.>
13:15 < Pharos> Qcoder00: mybe go to wikproject scifi?
13:15 < Pharos> or wikiproject gothic too?
13:15 < Isarra> You stick the ends in the appropriate holes.
13:15 < Qcoder00> OK
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13:15 < Isarra> ...I don't know, sorry. >.<
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13:15 < mareklug> Isarra while the thing sits in the computer?
13:15 < Isarra> Well, I just looked at what the motehrboard said.
13:15 < Pharos> i could write some crap off the top of my head
13:15 < gde33> Shirik: very nerdy looking
13:16 < gde33> Shirik: maybe put the titles out in full?
13:16 < Isarra> We only stuck a multimeter in the possible replacement that had been struck by lightning.
13:16 < Shirik> it's in a configuration file, sure
13:16 < Shirik> just thinking "what happens when it's a ton of them"
13:16 < gde33> else there is not much to say?
13:16 < gde33> looks cool
13:17 < gde33> very little overhead, lots of functionality
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13:20 < gde33> Shirik: give them a score and list only the top 3
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13:21 < gde33> if edit summary = "fuck you" > [[wp:civil]] score: 9000 points
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13:25 < Qcoder00> Phaors: If you want to do so :)
13:25 < Qcoder00> And thanks
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13:26 < gde33> Shirik: alternatively, if there is a ton of them, well good?
13:27 < gde33> it would be strange if you had an issue other editors didn't have a thousand times already
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13:29 < David_Stevenson> *.net *.derp :<
13:29 < legoktm> RIP
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13:34 < Isarra> mareklug: If you just want to check the voltages on the power supply itself, probably best take it out of the computer - plug it into a wall or something.
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13:43 < mareklug> Isarra ah. never would have occurred to me to do that. But then I have not googled how to debug a power supply yet. :) Thank you.
13:43 < Isarra> I doubt that would actually matter one way or the other if it's in it or not, actually. I dunno.
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14:13 < ScientificAlan> Well yesterday went great
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14:19 < ScientificAlan> I just got thinking, there needs to be a Wikipedia page on this site: http://www.unitednuclear.com/
14:20 < ScientificAlan> Anyone up to the task?
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14:27 < NotASpy> ScientificAlan: why can't you do it yourself ? COI etc ?
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14:36 < mareklug> NotASpy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4gPZPKJc0s The Dresden Dolls - album The Dresden Dolls - "Coin Operated Boy"
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14:56 < PinkAmpersand> ugh can someone just give http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=SheaYayIsDaMaster a CIR block?
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14:56 < Qcoder00> UNitedNuclear?
14:57 < Qcoder00> Isn't that site run by someone that got busted for fraud?
14:57 < Qcoder00> Amongst other things
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15:10 * Jasper_Deng concurs with PInk, although it might just be outright trolling
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15:12 < PinkAmpersand> Jasper_Deng: i don't think so. note the OS'ing of the userpage. probably like 10 years old.
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15:18 < Jasper_Deng> PinkAmpersand: and you got your block
15:18 < Jasper_Deng> 31 hours
15:18 < addshore> theo|away, your too much work
15:18 < theo|away> hahaha, i try to keep busy ;)
15:19 < PinkAmpersand> lol very very much doubt that will fix anything
15:19 < PinkAmpersand> still, better than nothing
15:19 < PinkAmpersand> (it's hardly even preventative of the stated reason)
15:19 < Jasper_Deng> he's on IRC if you want to talk about it
15:20 < Jasper_Deng> (the blocking admin)
15:20 < Shirik> gde33: better? http://gyazo.com/7b7186be10df018d42e2643a8a091e7e
15:21 < PinkAmpersand> meh, it's not like it's the end of the world
15:21 < addshore> theo|away: you seem to like making bots ;p I might put some requests up ;p
15:22 < theo|away> Well, I feel like I wasted all of my life so far not learning any programming languages, so in the past 3 months I've tried to learn everything I can about Python
15:22 < gde33> Shirik: haha, exactly!
15:22 < theo|away> Wikipedia is the perfect outlet to do that
15:22 < gde33> Shirik: more and more I'm thinking we have to out nerd the dumb people
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15:22 < gde33> Shirik: if you work really hard on a user friendly interface it can only get more friendly
15:23 < Shirik> I'm really bad at user interfaces
15:23 < addshore> theo|away: great :D
15:23 < gde33> I'm not
15:23 < gde33> You just have to keep reminding yourself what things look like to a newbie
15:23 < theo|away> haha, yeah...my mom, when i was showing her some code: "i have no idea what that means, but look at all the pretty colors!" :D
15:24 < gde33> theo|away: http://code-highlighter.go-here.nl/blabbermouth.html
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15:28 < ScientificAlan> theo, how are you away?
15:29 < ScientificAlan> Just a thought
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15:29 < Theopolisme> Happy?
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15:29 < Theopolisme> I'm just lazy
15:29 < ScientificAlan> Lol, who isn't?
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15:32 < ScientificAlan> I have to go
15:32 < ScientificAlan> Watching an episode of Red Dwarf
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