Talk:Croatian Identity

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Croatia (Hrvatska)

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Duke Branimir 880s, spoke old Slavic Chakavian from the Dalmatian hinterland.

Mr Branimir is, I believe, the first Croatian. His tribe, the old Slavic Chakavian speakers, are the first Croatians (Hrvati or more accurately Hrovati). The early medieval Western Balkans must had have multiple Slavic ethnic tribes. It appears that their history has not been recorded. From a Greco-Roman perspective they were all identified as Slavs. The Slavs found themselves living in a medieval multi-ethnic region. It was the most powerful chieftains who were leaders and they left a mark on history. The old language groups could (now refereed to as dialects) still reflect the many Slavic tribes who invaded Roman Dalmatia.

  • Old medieval Chakavian
  • Old medieval Kajkavian dialect
  • Old medival Shtokavian dialect

The politics of language standardisation is the issue at heart here. The question should be ask did the 19th century scholars did their job properly or it was all about the politics of the future super 19 century Southern Slavic State.

The first question I ask is how far back does one go in proclaiming Croatian nationhood? In the past the Yugoslav Communist party, Pan-Slavists and the Croatian Nationalistic movements have taken this to extremes. These Pan-Slaviic, Nationalistic and Communist ideologies have created so much pain, destruction and falsehoods by clinging to these false beliefs. For example does a seventh generation Australian with British background start saying in modern Australia that he is a Saxon and starts a nationalistic movement to assert his beliefs upon others.

Sources

"Florin Curta: he reason for the pope's sharing such concerns with a Croatian prince is that Bulgaria apparently bordered Croatia ... Branimir (879–892) appears in no less than five Latin inscriptions. One of them was found in Nin and calls Branimir..."

  • Encyclopedia of Genocide and Crimes Against Humanity, Volume 3 by Dinah Shelton Macmillan Reference, 2005 - Political Science (p.1170)
  • European Public Hearing on “Crimes Committed by Totalitarian Regimes"
  • Encyclopaedia Britannica

A rough time line:

  • Carolingian Empire (Franks) - Dalmatian Ducatus. Leader Borna a Guduscani (a Germanic tribe related to the Goths)
  • Carolingian Empire - Dalmatian Ducatus. Leader Vladislav a Slav.
  • Carolingian Empire - Dalmatian Ducatus. Leader Mislav a Slav. He ruled from Klis in central Dalmatia, when he made Klis Fortress seat to his throne.
  • Carolingian Empire - Dalmatian Ducatus. Leader Trpimir I (the founder of the Slavic House of Trpimirovic). Then Zdeslav (864,878–879) • Domagoj (864–876) • Iljko (876–878)
  • Ducatus Chroatorum- Leader Duke Branimir (dux sclavorum & dux cruatorum)

Notes'

  • It is believed that Hrvat in medieval times was pronounced "Hrovat".
  • Discovered In 1853 Χορούαθ[ος], Χοροάθος, Χορόαθος- Horoúathos, Horoáthos, and Horóathos (originally 3rd century AD-Tanais Tablets)
  • Branimir's inscription c. 880: Croatorum (Latin)
  • Baska tablet c.1100 AD: HR'VAT'SKI
  • Byzantines-Eastern Roman Empire (i.e. Procopius-Byzantine scholar, Jordanes- 6th century Roman bureaucrat) c. 550 Σκλαβῖνοι- Sklabenoi
  • Latin: Sclaveni

Some time after the collapse of the old medievial Croatia state in 1102 the political power within the Provence was transferred from Dalmatia to the Zagreb region (further inland). Zagreb today is the capital of modern Croatia.

In 1102 the Kingdom of Croatia ceased to exist and it became politically part of the Kingdom of Hungary. From the 12 century onwards the Croatian Identity started to disappear from the Balkan region. It was resurrected in 19th century in Austro-Hungarian Empire (the province of Croatia-Slavonia).


Note to self:

  • The source "Branimiro comite dux cruatorum cogitavit" is saying that "Branimir Earl Duke Cruatorum thought" which he is referred to as a leader of a people, tribe, individuals, etc. (dux=DUKE, CHIEFTAIN, LEADER etc.). This being Cruatorum (Cruatorum=people, tribe, individuals, military units or even political elite).
  • Imaginary history (written text, assortment of paintings, fake Croatian identities i.e Marco Polo)
  • Language issues (using a Herzegovina Slavic Language for creating a standard constructed language i.e Serbo-Croatian for a super SLAVIC state 19 century style & then imposing it on others and ignoring their mother tongue !!!).

(What's in a Name: The Case of Serbo-Croatian by R Bugarski - 2004 link)

Guduscani, a Vandals, Goths tribe on the western part of Ducatus Croatiae .

Note to self: There is a major difference between...

  • raids
  • settlement
  • mass migrations

Note to self:

  • Roman Latin-Illyrian population (Croatian men are the descendants of Europeans who inhabited Europe 13 000-20 000 years ago.) plus Celts, Liburnians,Greeks
  • The Ostrogoths (a Germanic tribe related to the Goths)
  • Slavs (intermixed with Sarmatians)
  • Within the Kingdom of Croatian (925–1102AD) all of her citizens weren't ethnic Croatian Slavs.

The Kingdom of Croatian was ruled by a Slavic nobility from the Dalmatian hinterland

A group of Slavic[1] tribes settled in the Dalmatian Hinterland (Roman Dalmatia). Their leader from the 880's was referred to as (in Latin): "Branimiro comite dux cruatorum cogitavit" thus indicating a Slavic connection with the Sarmatian tribes. Ducatus Croatiae was created in the late 9th century which evolved from Dalmatian ducatus which at the time was part of the Carolingian Empire (Franks). Later it became a kingdom which was called the Kingdom of Croatia (925–1102 AD).

The new Kingdom of Croatian was ruled by Slavic nobility from the Dalmatian hinterland with an historic connection with Sarmatian tribes who referred to themselves as Hrvati or in English Croatians. According to the Baska tablet (1100 AD) they spoke old Slavic Chakavian. The Kingdom of Croatian was named after her ruling class, which in turn ruled a medieval multi-ethnic state.

The centre of political power of the Croatian Slavs shifted during the Ottoman invasions. The shift was from the Dalmatian hinterland to to-days city of Zagreb. The term Croat became fully established as a constructed Identity in the 19th and 20th century.

Language:

Old Slavic Chakavian should be seen as a language in its own right, not a dialect. In the 19 century a fundamental mistake was made when political extremist ideology influenced culture and political decision making. It was an attempt at imitating Western imperial empire building egotism which failed with truly tragic historic events being the result. In 1850, a small group of Croatians (Illyrian movement) and Serbian representatives signed the "Vienna agreement". This agreement was indeed the basis and the start of the regions problems.

“ Robert Greenberg, the foremost English-language scholar on South Slav languages, believes the root of the language polemic lies in the Vienna agreement of 1850, which “reversed several centuries of natural Abstand developments for the languages of Orthodox Southern Slavs and Catholic Southern Slavs.” (Greenberg 2004, 23) Croatians and Serbians came to the negotiating table with differing experiences. Serbian linguists were standardizing a single dialect of rural speech and breaking with the archaic Slaveno-Serbian heritage of the eighteenth century “Serbian enlightenment.” Early Croat nationalists proposed a standard language based on a widely spoken dialect linked with the literature of the Croatian Renaissance. With an eye towards South Slav unity they also encouraged liberal borrowing from various dialects (Greenberg 2004, 24-26). This basic difference in approach created conflicts throughout the history of the South Slav movement and the Yugoslav state (Greenberg 2004, 48). [2] ”
  • Baska tablet (1100 AD)
“ AZ V' IME OTCA I S(I)NA I SVETAGO DUHA AZ'

OPAT' DR'ŽIHA PISAH SE O LEDINE JuŽE

DA Z'V'NIM(I)R KRAL' HR'VAT'SKI V'

DNI SVOE V' SVETUJu LUCIJu I SVEDO -

MI ŽUPAN' DESIMIRA KR'BAVE MARTIN' V L(I) -

CE PRB'NEBŽA S' POSL' VIN(0)DOLE JaK(O)V' V O-

TOCE DA IŽE TO POREČE KL'NI I BO(G) I *BÏ* AP(OSTO)LA I *G* E -

VANJELISTI I S(VE)TAJa LUCIJa AM(E)N' DA IŽE SDE ŽIVE -

T' MOLI ZA NE BOGA AZ OPAT' DBROVIT' Z' -

DAH' CREK'V' SIJu I SVOEJu BRATIJu S DEV -

ETIJu V' DNI K'NEZA KOS'M'TA OBLAD -

AJuĆAGO V'SU K'RAINU I BJeŠE V' T' DNI M -

IKULA V' OTOČ'CI S' SVETUJu LUCIJu V' EDINO

”

Old Croatian (Chakavian with elements of liturgical Church Slavonic), translated in 1875: "I, in the name of Father and Son and the Holy Spirit, I abbot Drzhiha, wrote this about the plot of land which was given by Zvonimir, the Croatian King, in his days to St. Lucy and witnesses [are]: Desimir, Prefect of Krbava, Martin in Lika, Pribinezha, clerk in Vinodol, Jacob on the island. If anyone denies it, let him be cursed by 12 Apostles and 4 evangelists and St. Lucy. Let anyone who lives here prays God for them. I abbot Dobrovit built this church with my nine brethren at the time of Prince Kosmat who ruled the whole Country. In those days Mikula was in Otochac with St. Lucy together."

  • Valun tablet (11th century)
  • Plomin tablet

Danijel Dzino:

  • "In addition, pope Gregory the Great mentioned the 'Slav' raid of Istria in a worried letter to Maximus the" this is regarding Slavic raids north of Dalmatia in 600AD. May be the first mention of Slavs arriving in Roman Dalmatian but as Danijel Dzino states it does not have to mean "mass migrations". Becoming Slav, Becoming Croat: Identity Transformations in ... Page 88

John Van Antwerp Fine:


This is interesting: www.hic.hr: Latin as a literary language among the Croats (up till 1848), Vecernji.hr: Preživjeli ledeno doba: Hrvati su prastanovnici Europe (Vecernji.hr: Surviving an ice age: the Croats are descendants of prehistoric Europe)

  • More than three quarters of today's Croatian men are the descendants of Europeans who inhabited Europe 13000-20000 years ago. They survived the last ice age within certain regions on Europe.

The Early Beginnings of Formal Education - Vela Luka (beginnings of literacy and Lower Primary School 1857 – 1870): "Talijanski je jezik bio ne samo službeni jezik u svim dalmatinskim javnim usta-novama, već pretežito i govorni jezik u znatnom broju činovničkih, službeničkih i tr-govačkih obitelji u gradovima i većim trgovištima." (Italian language was not only the official language in all public Dalmatian establishments, but also was the spoken language in a significant number of white-collar, civil service and merchant families in the cities and major markets within towns)

Translation

(Croatian)

Hrvatski Identitet

Prvi primarni izvor, činjenično, da spomene hrvatski identitet na Balkanu je bio Knez Branimir (latinski: "Branimiro comite dux cruatorum cogitavit" cia. 880 AD). Knez Branimir je Slaven iz Dalmacije. Skupina slavenskih plemena naselili u Dalmatinskoj zagori (Rimske Dalmacije). Ducatus Croatiae je nastao u kasnom 9. stoljeću koja se razvila iz dalmatinske Ducatus koje je u to vrijeme bio dio Karolinška Carstvo-Franci. Kasnije postaje kraljevstvo koja se zvala Kraljevina Hrvatska (925-1102 AD)

Kraljevina Hrvatska (Regnum Chroatorum) vladali su slavenske plemstva iz Dalmatinske zagore. Kraljevstvo ime je bazirano na vladajuće klase, koje je pak vladala srednjovjekovnom multi-etničke državu. Pojam slavenskog je prvi put korišten od strane Bizanta, Istočno Rimsko Carstvo (npr. Prokopije-bizantski učenjak, Jordanes-6. stoljeća rimski birokrata), a zabilježen je u 6. stoljeću (cia. 550) grčki (Σκλαβῖνοι-Sklabenoi). Kasnije na latinskom jeziku je napisan Sclaveni.

Hrvat ili Horoúathos su imena sarmat podrijetla. U 1853 Ruska arheolog Pavel Mihajlovič Leontjev otkrio Tanais tablete.Tanais tablete spomenuti tri čovjeka: Horoúathos, Horoáthos i Horóathos (Χορούαθ [ος], Χοροάθος, Χορόαθος). Oni su pisani na grčkom i iz 3. stoljeća poslije Krista iz grada Tanaisa, današnjeg Azovskog, Rusiji. U to vrijeme područje imao mješoviti Grčki-Sarmat stanovništva.

Iz gore navedene informacije može se zaključiti da se radi o kontaktu između slavenskih i sarmat plemena iz kasne antike. Iz moderne perspektive Sarmat povijesni trag više ne postoji. Svi tragovi tih ljudi su nestali, osim slavenske riječi ili imena Hrvat. Radoslav Katičić hrvatski jezikoslovac (i klasični filolog, indo-Europeanist, slavist i Indologist) rekao je da imena iz Tanaisa Tablet su osobne i ne nacionalne. Nadalje, također može se reći da su ti nazivi se ne odnose na etničkog identiteta. Povijesno izraz Hrvat se potpuno afirmira kao konstruiran identitet u 19. stoljeću.

Nedavna DNK istraživanja

Također je vrlo zanimljivo imati na umu da nedavne DNK znastvena studija navode da više od tri četvrtine današnjeg hrvatskog muškaraca su potomci Europljana koji su naseljavali Europu 13 000-20 000 godina. Iz perspektive DNK studije, narodi koji su živjeli u rimskoj Dalmaciji (prije dolaska Slavena) su genetski dominantna. Narodi koji su živjeli u rimskoj Dalmaciji u tom razdoblju pretežno su bili ilirsko-rimskog Latinski stanovništva.

Principalities of Littoral Croatia



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Notes and References

  1. ^ Becoming Slav, Becoming Croat: Identity Transformations in Post-Roman and and Early Medieval Dalmatia by Danijel Dzino (p.195-p.196)
    • "... region ruled by the dukes Mislav, Domagoj, Zdeslav, and Branimir, to whom is referred in the sources to as principes or duces Sclavorum."
  2. ^ LANGUAGE AND NATION: AN ANALYSIS OF CROATIAN LINGUISTIC NATIONALISM - A Thesis Presented to the Faculty of San Diego State (p43)
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