User talk:Peter Z.

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Thanks-Peter Z

Wikipedia’s Communist Propaganda Articles-Work Space

Is Wikipedia taking on a darker tone? Where are the ethical and moral issues involved in creating a feel good article about a man who played a major role in these historicial events? How many more articles are being written within Wikipedia that are just the point of view of its Editors (political, in this case). This is not encyclopedic work, pure and simple. Is this type of phenomenon happening with other articles. Quite possible!

The Word According to Wikipedia

According to Wikipedia if a Commander happens to loss 100 000 POWs after WW2, is not that important. The information is not to be mention in his biography. Sixty years latter it was established that were murdered and place in old mine shafts and caves.

Notes on References

Contemporary view of Josip Broz are clealy referenced:

• Zdravko Dizdar: Croatian Historian (Institute for History in Zagreb): Partisan/Communist Repression & Atrocities in Croatia/1944th to 1946th - Document: Hrcak Portal of Scientific Journals of Croatia

Note: In Mr Dizdar's Scientific Journal he stated that Tito asked the "Croatian Home Guard" to surrender or face the consequences of not surrendering. After the war ended POWs who did not surrender were slaughter on mass, estimates are about 100 000 victims in total.

• BBC.UK/History Partisans: War in the Balkans 1941 - 1945 By Dr Stephen A Hart

The article is written in the post Berlin Wall world. The Wiki article does not have the BBC as it's source. This encyclopaedic articles clearly state the dark truth about Tito and his Army:

• Dr Stephen A Hart is senior lecturer in war studies at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst. He is the author of The Road to Falaise: Operations 'Totalize' and 'Tractable' (Alan Sutton, 2004), and Montgomery and 'Colossal Cracks': The 21st Army Group in Northwest Europe, 1944-45 (Praeger, 2000). He is currently working with R Hart on The Ruins of the Reich: The Collapse of Nazi Germany in 1945, for Pearson Education

• Encyclopaedia Britannica-The article is written post Berlin Wall but it's thin in terms of information, but does not hold back on economic realities "At his death, the state treasury was empty" The Wiki article has Encyclopaedia Britannica under its Notes section as it's source, it might be just cosmetic.
• BBC UK/History by Tim Judah. The article is also written in the post Berlin Wall world. The Wiki article does not have the BBC as it's source.

• Tim Judah is a front line reporter for The Economist and author. A graduate of the London School of Economics and of the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University he worked for the BBC before becoming the Balkans correspondent for The Times and The Economist. During the Kosovo war he broadcast widely and wrote for the New York Review of Books, The Observer, The Sunday Telegraph and The Guardian Weekend magazine. Judah is also the author of the prizewinning The Serbs: History, Myth and the Destruction of Yugoslavia, published in 1997 by Yale University Press.

• Ivo Goldstein: 'Croatia A History', a Mc Gill Queen’s University Press Publication.

“Self -management as system was only slightly more efficient than the Soviet model. It was bureaucratised and cumbersome and could not compete with Western economies. People could obtain so much free or for less than the market price (e.g. apartments) that they could be obtain without work. All this made the settling of accounts in the 1980s and in the post-socialist age more difficult.”

“In Tito’s system no interest or ideas could be expressed in a truly democratic way. This did most harm where feelings of ethnic identity were concerned because their suppression led to growth of extreme nationalism. Furthermore, the economic failure of Tito’s system, most clearly expressed in the protracted crisis of the 1980s, left people who even if they were not poor, were disillusioned and open to manipulation by demagogues. Finally Tito’s practical solutions ensured that he would retain unlimited power during his life time, but foreshadowed the problems would come after his death.”

This is a factual statement, written in Ivo Goldstein: 'Croatia A History'. Josip Broz and his fellow communist were committing economic management suicide. The Wiki article does not have Ivo Goldstein as it's source.

The articles clearly state:

1. Josip Broz Tito’s failure in adressing ethnic tensions of the former Yugoslavia;

2. Failure in the economic management of the former of Yugoslavia;

Note: Ivo Goldstein is a Professor at the University of Zagreb The University of Zagreb [1] [2] (1669) is the oldest and biggest university in South-Eastern Europe. The university has 29 faculties, three art academies and the Centre for Croatian Studies. With its comprehensive programmes and over 50,000 full-time undergraduate and postgraduate students. The University is the strongest teaching institution in Croatia. It offers a wide range of academic degree courses leading to Bachelor's, Master's and Doctoral degrees in the following fields: Arts, Biomedicine, Biotechnology, Engineering, Humanities, Natural and Social Sciences.

Commission on Concealed Mass Graves in Slovenia-created by Government of the Republic of Slovenia.

• Jože Dežman: Slovenian Historian-Director of the National Museum of Contemporary History-Ljubljana (Slovenian) National Museum of Contemporary History- Slovenia
• Mitja Ferenc: Slovenian Historian-University of Ljubljana

The below referenced information is from 'Government Leaders, Military Rulers and Political Activists: An Encyclopaedia of People Who Changed the World (Lives & Legacies Series)’ by David W. Del Testa.

'Yugoslavia under Tito was a curious combination of relative economic and cultural freedom and total political repression and control. The lack of political freedom made debate on the role of ethnic identity in Yugoslavia impossible. Tito’s regime had created temporary stability in a historically unstable region. Treated almost as a mythic hero in his lifetime, Tito’s image began to decay in the years following his death, undermining the legitimacy of the regime so connected to his cult of personality'.

David W. Del Testa’s statement succinctly sums up Josip Broz and his political life. One could say it is well balanced in the objective sense. David W. Del Testa has a Ph.D. in History from the University of California at Davis.

Wikipedia & Political Agendas

I would like to expand the parent article with how the political spin is done on Wiki (which I'm going to add later). This could apply to all articles (you have already started on something similar, this is-great).

Also the way Wiki is being run from within. Is it becoming more like George Orwell's "1984 & Animal Farm" (with every passing day)? That is if you agree with this.

Wiki's future and how this is going to affect information (political info & other) on the Internet (& society). Does it need to have a moral obligation (Yes) ?

Wiki's editorial style of work ([3]-scroll down to Balkanic business/Dalmatia not exactly Croatia) is this the way to build an encyclopedia?

The Four Corners might not be suitable for the article? Peter Z. 19:22, 6 October 2009 (PDT)

Hi this is good - see if you can edit the talk pages of the parent article. If not, leave something in my talk directory and I will edit it in. Do you not belong to Wikikpedia Review? That is the place where all the dirt is dished, these days. There is a major scandal going on at the moment. Ockham 11:56, 8 October 2009 (PDT)

Hm mm, there seems to be a lot more of dirt being dished out than I realized. Thanks for that! Peter Z. 19:49, 9 October 2009 (PDT)

Wiki Balkan Talk Page Drama!!!:

Information on www.spiritus-temporis.com

War crimes Under Tito (Commanded all partisans and Communists)

"The Bleiburg massacre occurred near to the end of World War II, during May 1945. It is named after the village of Bleiburg on the Austrian-Slovenian border, near where the massacre began. It involved mass murder of Croatian soldiers and civilians who were fleeing from the defeated Independent State of Croatia, a puppet state of the Nazi regime in Germany. The atrocities were a reprisal against the real or alleged members or collaborators of the fascist regime, by the communist Yugoslav partisan army, presumably with the full knowledge of their supreme commander Josip Broz Tito, who was himself half-Croatian.

Although a still undefined number of Croatian soldiers died during a series of battles and skirmishes, it is generally accepted that the vast portion of violent deaths were the result of executions that lasted at least two weeks after the cessation of hostilities. The victims were Croatian soldiers and civilians, executed without trial as an act of vengeance for the crimes committed by the Ustasi regime in Croatian-controlled territories during World War II — frequently in overtly gruesome manner (mass rape and subsequent killing by stoning of women; beheading of Croatian disarmed soldiers). Murder continued in nearby Slovenia, and it is hard to estimate the number of victims in Bleiburg field, compared to those later found in the trenches in the Maribor area and other numerous pits in Slovenia. Many captives were sent on a death march further into Yugoslav territory.

Croatian political emigration, as well as other sources related to the Cossacks, had published numerous testimonies on the atrocities and British involvement in the affair (interestingly enough, British archives on the Operation Keelhaul tragedy are still sealed), but their publications have received little attention since communist Yugoslavia was the West's protege and the buffer-zone to the Soviets in the post-war period."

Now how can the leadership of the partisans not be responsible for these events? May be they just had a bad day at one of there Communists Party meetings. Sir Floyd (talk) 04:20, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, poor Nazis and fascists. After they've brutally murdered 2 million Yugoslavs in 4 years the partisan's should've simply pardoned them for misbehaving. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 11:37, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

The key word in your post being "presumably". :) Find yourself another one of your crappy "forums" to talk about your presumptions. Just forget about this, Luigi/Brunodam, you're not annoying anyone - you're just turning out amusing. I think I'll file a checkuser in an hour or so, you'd better believe it when I say I'll delete everything you wrote if you're a sock. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 15:49, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Whitewashing? As I understand it, Tito was a fairly controversial leader, whose political legacy is still under debate by scholars. What I don't understand is why this article is devoid of any discussion of this scholarly contention. It seems this article is more focused towards listing Tito's awards than presenting any meaningful scholarly analysis of the man. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 19:08, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Note: Ivan Štambuk statement is very interesting. It might be there just for the benefit of the other Editors, who might not know nothing about the historical events of WW2. This happens a lot with the Balkan Editors (something to think about). Peter Z. 00:41, 10 October 2009 (PDT)

Wiki's Encyclopedic Editors Style of Communication:

• Hoping that your essays will attract other, real users and start a fake dispute about a non-existing controversy? Nice try... -DIREKTOR 6 August 2009
• Why in the world would I want to ban you? You're wacky, you're a lot of fun - I like that! :D And since even a brain-dead, brutish Slav communist can see through your sockpuppet "disguise", you're really not a problem.DIREKTOR 6 August 2009
• Don't you worry Rex old boy, "my menace" is here to stay.It only gets more annoying and "menacing" as the months and years go by... xD gosh I'm evil.-DIREKTOR, 14 August 2009
• My very well sourced propaganda, Rex, lets not forget. With your sock report I doubt you'll have to endure the um..."suffering" for much longer. ;) -DIREKTOR 14 August 2009

Note: This communication is towards a new Editor who is not a Shockpuppet. Editor DIREKTOR is being considered (by some in Wiki) to be nominated for Admi. Editor DIREKTOR has won "The Barnstar of Diplomacy" Award!

Hi

Hi - I have reorganised your article somewhat by placing a parent article in mainspace (click the link for 'parent article'), which will contain links to all the bad historyarticles in Wikipedia. I have moved and edited material in your article and placed it in the parent article. The child article will then be expressly about the former Yugoslavia and its history, or rather, about the treatment in the Wikipedia articles compared to the modern independent scholarly view. I have looked at some of the Wikipedia articles and you seem to have stumbled upon a real can of worms. Well done. I have edited the article to remove some of the strident turns of phrase you have used - to make a really strong and forceful case it is necessary to speak quieter, rather than louder. Regards Ockham 04:16, 4 October 2009 (PDT)

PS See my links about Bleiburg [4] - the edits by 'Direktor' are laughable. Ockham 04:43, 4 October 2009 (PDT)

Hi

I can see this is all coming on nicely! I am not always around but feel free to leave a message. Ockham 05:18, 21 October 2009 (PDT)