Changes

It is a personal attack from start to finish. I had to remove the entire thing because I couldn't even refactor it to something keepable. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 13:11, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

It is a personal attack from start to finish. I had to remove the entire thing because I couldn't even refactor it to something keepable. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 13:11, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

The whole thing? Even the bit where I refer to Wikipedia policy? The third point could be construed as a personal attack but the first two aren't. Can you at least reinstate the first two points? flavius 13:38, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

The whole thing? Even the bit where I refer to Wikipedia policy? The third point could be construed as a personal attack but the first two aren't. Can you at least reinstate the first two points? flavius 13:38, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

Firstly, it's not your place to "peer review" Corballis. You are not his peer and even if your were your assessment of Corballis and his conclusion is entirely irrelevant. Corballis is a topic expert and that is his conclusion. Quoting Corballis is entirely consistent with all Wikipedia policies -- it is not encumbent on me to defend Corballis or for you to attempt a critique. Mind Myths is a collection of essays published by a large publisher, Corballis is a profesor at the University of Auckland and is an expert in cognitive neuroscience[32]. Corballis has a special interest in brain lateralisation and language evolotion. End of story nothing more need be said.  

Firstly, it's not your place to "peer review" Corballis. You are not his peer and even if your were your assessment of Corballis and his conclusion is entirely irrelevant. Corballis is a topic expert and that is his conclusion. Quoting Corballis is entirely consistent with all Wikipedia policies -- it is not encumbent on me to defend Corballis or for you to attempt a critique. Mind Myths is a collection of essays published by a large publisher, Corballis is a profesor at the University of Auckland and is an expert in cognitive neuroscience[32]. Corballis has a special interest in brain lateralisation and language evolotion. End of story nothing more need be said.  

This isn't a personal attack. Can you tell me how this constitutes a personal attack? flavius 13:51, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

This isn't a personal attack. Can you tell me how this constitutes a personal attack? flavius 13:51, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

Secondly, as the mentors have repeatedly stated it is not our job to determine the truth, our function as editors is to report expert opinion. You and Greg have often as a last resort when you've no other recourse left attempt to engage an expert in debate using the Wikipedia editor (in this case me) as a proxy. I've no interest in debating you on behalf of Corballis -- I don't have to and it's a waste of my time, it will come to nothing.  

 

Neither is this. This is a reference to Wikipedia policy and a historical breaches of this policy by GregA and Comaze. flavius 13:51, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

Secondly, as the mentors have repeatedly stated it is not our job to determine the truth, our function as editors is to report expert opinion. You and Greg have often as a last resort when you've no other recourse left attempt to engage an expert in debate using the Wikipedia editor (in this case me) as a proxy. I've no interest in debating you on behalf of Corballis -- I don't have to and it's a waste of my time, it will come to nothing. Neither is this. This is a reference to Wikipedia policy and a historical breaches of this policy by GregA and Comaze. flavius 13:51, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

 

Thirdly, you haven't arrived at your devotion to NLP via reason and your fetish can't be altered using reason. You're not operating within the a domain in which evidence has any value or even meaning. On what evidence does Grinder make any of his claims? Given that you've spent a substantial amount of time and keystrokes debasing the very concept of evidence -- "NLP has its own standard of evidence", "NLP has its own epistemology" -- what exactly does it mean when you ask, "On what evidence does Corballis make these claims?". Aren't you expressing a double-standard and dare I say hypocrisy? On the one hand you devalue the notion of evidence by appealing to epistemological relativism and now you are asking for "evidence". If Grinder can define his own terms of evidence -- if epistemological relativism is a valid philosophical position -- then you question is illegitimate and meaningless. Post-modernity and its attendant epistemological, ethical and aesthetic relatvism is "egalitarian", it is an "equal opprotunity" worldview. If Grinder can appeal to a "another epistemology" then so too can Corballis, so too can I, so too can HeadleyDown, so too can Levelt, so too can Beyerstein. The post-modern position is not available only to Grinder. Decide where you sit on this matter don't embrace or reject scientific realism as it suits you. This dithering reeks of bad faith. flavius 12:42, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

Thirdly, you haven't arrived at your devotion to NLP via reason and your fetish can't be altered using reason. You're not operating within the a domain in which evidence has any value or even meaning. On what evidence does Grinder make any of his claims? Given that you've spent a substantial amount of time and keystrokes debasing the very concept of evidence -- "NLP has its own standard of evidence", "NLP has its own epistemology" -- what exactly does it mean when you ask, "On what evidence does Corballis make these claims?". Aren't you expressing a double-standard and dare I say hypocrisy? On the one hand you devalue the notion of evidence by appealing to epistemological relativism and now you are asking for "evidence". If Grinder can define his own terms of evidence -- if epistemological relativism is a valid philosophical position -- then you question is illegitimate and meaningless. Post-modernity and its attendant epistemological, ethical and aesthetic relatvism is "egalitarian", it is an "equal opprotunity" worldview. If Grinder can appeal to a "another epistemology" then so too can Corballis, so too can I, so too can HeadleyDown, so too can Levelt, so too can Beyerstein. The post-modern position is not available only to Grinder. Decide where you sit on this matter don't embrace or reject scientific realism as it suits you. This dithering reeks of bad faith. flavius 12:42, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

Parts of this could be regarded as a personal attack. This refactoring isn't in any way an attack:  

Parts of this could be regarded as a personal attack. This refactoring isn't in any way an attack:  

Thirdly, on what evidence does Grinder make any of his claims? Given that you've spent a substantial amount of time and keystrokes debasing the very concept of evidence -- "NLP has its own standard of evidence", "NLP has its own epistemology" -- what exactly does it mean when you ask, "On what evidence does Corballis make these claims?". Aren't you expressing a double-standard and dare I say hypocrisy? On the one hand you devalue the notion of evidence by appealing to epistemological relativism and now you are asking for "evidence". If Grinder can define his own terms of evidence -- if epistemological relativism is a valid philosophical position -- then you question is illegitimate and meaningless. Post-modernity and its attendant epistemological, ethical and aesthetic relatvism is "egalitarian", it is an "equal opprotunity" worldview. If Grinder can appeal to a "another epistemology" then so too can Corballis, so too can I, so too can HeadleyDown, so too can Levelt, so too can Beyerstein. flavius 13:51, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

Thirdly, on what evidence does Grinder make any of his claims? Given that you've spent a substantial amount of time and keystrokes debasing the very concept of evidence -- "NLP has its own standard of evidence", "NLP has its own epistemology" -- what exactly does it mean when you ask, "On what evidence does Corballis make these claims?". Aren't you expressing a double-standard and dare I say hypocrisy? On the one hand you devalue the notion of evidence by appealing to epistemological relativism and now you are asking for "evidence". If Grinder can define his own terms of evidence -- if epistemological relativism is a valid philosophical position -- then you question is illegitimate and meaningless. Post-modernity and its attendant epistemological, ethical and aesthetic relatvism is "egalitarian", it is an "equal opprotunity" worldview. If Grinder can appeal to a "another epistemology" then so too can Corballis, so too can I, so too can HeadleyDown, so too can Levelt, so too can Beyerstein. flavius 13:51, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

Comaze's question represents an attempt (not necessaily malicious) to lead the discussion into a debate about truth vis-a-vis NLP which you have been discouraging. A re-iteration of the ground rules can't be considered a personal attack. flavius 13:51, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

Comaze's question represents an attempt (not necessaily malicious) to lead the discussion into a debate about truth vis-a-vis NLP which you have been discouraging. A re-iteration of the ground rules can't be considered a personal attack. flavius 13:51, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

Right. So it's the *mentors* job to call him on it. Personal. Less see. Accusing him of hypocrisy. Secondly, you assume bad faith by assuming that he came to NLP not be reasoning. Thirdly, you accused him of bad faith. And there are other examples I could cite but I am not going to. I will make another attempt to refactor your comments. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 19:58, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

 

Btw, if you want to see the right way to respond to Comaze's question, look at HeadleyDown's response. It's questioning but it's civil and polite. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 19:59, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

:''Right. So it's the *mentors* job to call him on it. Personal. Less see. Accusing him of hypocrisy. Secondly, you assume bad faith by assuming that he came to NLP not be reasoning. Thirdly, you accused him of bad faith. And there are other examples I could cite but I am not going to. I will make another attempt to refactor your comments''. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 19:58, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

 

:''Btw, if you want to see the right way to respond to Comaze's question, look at HeadleyDown's response. It's questioning but it's civil and polite''. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 19:59, 1 April 2006 (UTC)  

The "right way" is the efficacious way. I'm not seeing the progress I hoped for since the mentors involvement. GregA, Comaze and Mettabubble are in effect asserting P and not P and this is having the effect of stalling editorial progress. In order to insert pro-NLP material -- that doesn't meet the conventional standards of evidence -- we are bombarded with appeals to epistemological relatvism expressed in the form of "NLP has its own epistemology" and "NLP has its own standard of evidence". In order to obstruct inclusion of material critical of NLP the epistemological relativism is (temporarily) discarded and scientific realism is (temporarily) embraced and we are asked for conventional evidence and the discourse becomes meaningful only in the context of scientific realism (i.e. notions of "experimental evidence", "peer review", "reputablity" and science are appealed to). This is nonsensical and it is holding back the article. This switching of weltenschaung as it suits is confusing the discussions. It is not logically possible to simulatenously appeal to epistemological relativism and scientific realism. It is self-contradictory -- it is the same as proposing P and not P.  

The "right way" is the efficacious way. I'm not seeing the progress I hoped for since the mentors involvement. GregA, Comaze and Mettabubble are in effect asserting P and not P and this is having the effect of stalling editorial progress. In order to insert pro-NLP material -- that doesn't meet the conventional standards of evidence -- we are bombarded with appeals to epistemological relatvism expressed in the form of "NLP has its own epistemology" and "NLP has its own standard of evidence". In order to obstruct inclusion of material critical of NLP the epistemological relativism is (temporarily) discarded and scientific realism is (temporarily) embraced and we are asked for conventional evidence and the discourse becomes meaningful only in the context of scientific realism (i.e. notions of "experimental evidence", "peer review", "reputablity" and science are appealed to). This is nonsensical and it is holding back the article. This switching of weltenschaung as it suits is confusing the discussions. It is not logically possible to simulatenously appeal to epistemological relativism and scientific realism. It is self-contradictory -- it is the same as proposing P and not P.  

The upshot of this is that if an author is going to justify their claims by appealing to epistemological/moral/aesthetic relativism they must extend that privilege to other also. Comaze and GregA seem to think that Grinder has some special pass to the Universe where he can define his own standard of evidence and conception of truth yet anyone that criticises him must confine themselves to the rigours of scientific realism. If a an NLP critical view is to be scrutinised with reference to scientific realist concepts -- in particular, the notion of objective experimental evidence -- then so too must the NLP promotional views. If the NLP promotional views are to be admitted on epistemological relativist terms then so to must NLP critical views. I accused Comaze of hypocrisy because he asks, "On what evidence does Corballis make these claims?" yet he won't entertain the question "On what evidence does Grinder make these claims?". How can it be that Corballis needs evidence yet Grinder doesn't? flavius 02:51, 2 April 2006 (UTC)  

The upshot of this is that if an author is going to justify their claims by appealing to epistemological/moral/aesthetic relativism they must extend that privilege to other also. Comaze and GregA seem to think that Grinder has some special pass to the Universe where he can define his own standard of evidence and conception of truth yet anyone that criticises him must confine themselves to the rigours of scientific realism. If a an NLP critical view is to be scrutinised with reference to scientific realist concepts -- in particular, the notion of objective experimental evidence -- then so too must the NLP promotional views. If the NLP promotional views are to be admitted on epistemological relativist terms then so to must NLP critical views. I accused Comaze of hypocrisy because he asks, "On what evidence does Corballis make these claims?" yet he won't entertain the question "On what evidence does Grinder make these claims?". How can it be that Corballis needs evidence yet Grinder doesn't? flavius 02:51, 2 April 2006 (UTC)  

Stop attacking others. With the next attack, you will be blocked indefinitely. I would suggest serving your 2 weeks in peace. Once again, you are being incivil and attacking others. Suggesting that the pro-NLP side is stalling and obstruction would be personal attacks. What I don't understand is. You have 2 basic options. It's simple. You can either A) email comments like this to the mentors and we will look into them or B) Do what HeadleyDown is doing, which is write out what you want, look at what we consider blockable and then remove the blockable comments. This isn't hard. We're not asking for much. So you have problems with how the pro side is handling things. Fine. Then email us on it and we will see what we can do. Instead, you put it here and it comes off as a personal attack and as assuming bad faith. And flavius, you've been blocked 6 times. You should know the policy on attacks by now and what we consider attacks. If you don't know, then I don't think you ever will in which case you don't belong here. This is your last chance. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 08:00, 2 April 2006 (UTC)  

:''Stop attacking others. With the next attack, you will be blocked indefinitely. I would suggest serving your 2 weeks in peace. Once again, you are being incivil and attacking others. Suggesting that the pro-NLP side is stalling and obstruction would be personal attacks. What I don't understand is. You have 2 basic options. It's simple. You can either A) email comments like this to the mentors and we will look into them or B) Do what HeadleyDown is doing, which is write out what you want, look at what we consider blockable and then remove the blockable comments. This isn't hard. We're not asking for much. So you have problems with how the pro side is handling things. Fine. Then email us on it and we will see what we can do. Instead, you put it here and it comes off as a personal attack and as assuming bad faith. And flavius, you've been blocked 6 times. You should know the policy on attacks by now and what we consider attacks. If you don't know, then I don't think you ever will in which case you don't belong here. This is your last chance''. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 08:00, 2 April 2006 (UTC)  

I'm not being uncivil and attacking others. Why is it preferable to email you rather than post my concerns in the discussion? I don't like the furtive intrigue implicit in privately communicating to the mentors. Discussion should be open and free restricted only by the law. I'm mindful that I don't libel anyone and that's enough for my government and my conscience. Your notion of "civility" is alien to me -- it's very PC notion and Australia isn't a PC nation (sure there are pockets of it on certain univeristy campuses and government bureaucracies but it's not a national character). I'm not from the USA so I'm not imbued with the Victorian/Protestant Puritanism that you appear to be appealing to. That isn't a personal attack -- it is a matter of fact, pointing out a fact that may be unpalatable isn't a personal attack. Also, why can't I put what I like -- so long as it isn't libellous -- on "my talk" page. So what if I've been blocked six times? You're the one performing the blocking it's not like your're referring to the decisions of some independent third-party, court of the land or moral authority. Your notion of a personal attack doesn't match up with mine -- it's as simple as that. I don't understand what you are having trouble understanding ("What I don't understand is"). This is an aesthetic dispute and your definition of a "personal attack" is loose and flexible. I can't read your mind or predict the future, I don't know in advance what you will deem a "personal attack" and it isn't as if I'm calling people motherfuckers or child pornographers. Libel is well-defined so I know when I'd be libelling someone. A "personal attack" in my aesthetic judgement consists of calling someone a dickhead, a fuckwit, a moron, a rapist, paedophile, con-artist, racist epithet and so on. Stating that someone is being hypocritical and then proceeding to provide an exlanation of how someone is being hypocritical isn't a personal attack. Certainly, it's not "nice" but neither are articles on bestiality, paedophilia, coprophilia, and redneck American racists[33]. Who will be the arbiter of whether I "belong here"? I've been complying with your blocks without any fuss. There is no way to keep a determined person off Wikipedia and I haven't resorted to any of these means (which are entirely legal, easy and unstoppable) so I don't understand why you are antagonising and threatening me. flavius 12:21, 2 April 2006 (UTC)  

I'm not being uncivil and attacking others. Why is it preferable to email you rather than post my concerns in the discussion? I don't like the furtive intrigue implicit in privately communicating to the mentors. Discussion should be open and free restricted only by the law. I'm mindful that I don't libel anyone and that's enough for my government and my conscience. Your notion of "civility" is alien to me -- it's very PC notion and Australia isn't a PC nation (sure there are pockets of it on certain univeristy campuses and government bureaucracies but it's not a national character). I'm not from the USA so I'm not imbued with the Victorian/Protestant Puritanism that you appear to be appealing to. That isn't a personal attack -- it is a matter of fact, pointing out a fact that may be unpalatable isn't a personal attack. Also, why can't I put what I like -- so long as it isn't libellous -- on "my talk" page. So what if I've been blocked six times? You're the one performing the blocking it's not like your're referring to the decisions of some independent third-party, court of the land or moral authority. Your notion of a personal attack doesn't match up with mine -- it's as simple as that. I don't understand what you are having trouble understanding ("What I don't understand is"). This is an aesthetic dispute and your definition of a "personal attack" is loose and flexible. I can't read your mind or predict the future, I don't know in advance what you will deem a "personal attack" and it isn't as if I'm calling people motherfuckers or child pornographers. Libel is well-defined so I know when I'd be libelling someone. A "personal attack" in my aesthetic judgement consists of calling someone a dickhead, a fuckwit, a moron, a rapist, paedophile, con-artist, racist epithet and so on. Stating that someone is being hypocritical and then proceeding to provide an exlanation of how someone is being hypocritical isn't a personal attack. Certainly, it's not "nice" but neither are articles on bestiality, paedophilia, coprophilia, and redneck American racists[33]. Who will be the arbiter of whether I "belong here"? I've been complying with your blocks without any fuss. There is no way to keep a determined person off Wikipedia and I haven't resorted to any of these means (which are entirely legal, easy and unstoppable) so I don't understand why you are antagonising and threatening me. flavius 12:21, 2 April 2006 (UTC)  

[BANNED]

'''FLAVIUS IS BANNED'''