Changes

== Alleged ''Frogs'' Quote ==  

== Alleged ''Frogs'' Quote ==  

    

    

  I've skim (re-)read all of ''Frogs'' (what a tedious book) and am unable to locate the quote attributed to that text in the article: "However, Richard Bandler and John Grinder have also stated that "NLP is not a science... we are not scientists" (Frogs into Princes, 1979 REF PAGE)". I did find "We are not psychologists, and we're also not theologians and theoreticians." (p.7) Can someone else confirm my results. Personally I can not imagine B&G uttering something as modest as "NLP is not a science...we are not scientists" especially since Bandler in his pompous seminar sermonising has claimed to be a scientist of one form or another (physicist, information scientist, computer scientist, linguist). [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 12:53, 8 January 2006 (UTC)  

I've skim (re-)read all of ''Frogs'' (what a tedious book) and am unable to locate the quote attributed to that text in the article: "However, Richard Bandler and John Grinder have also stated that "NLP is not a science... we are not scientists" (Frogs into Princes, 1979 REF PAGE)". I did find "We are not psychologists, and we're also not theologians and theoreticians." (p.7) Can someone else confirm my results. Personally I can not imagine B&G uttering something as modest as "NLP is not a science...we are not scientists" especially since Bandler in his pompous seminar sermonising has claimed to be a scientist of one form or another (physicist, information scientist, computer scientist, linguist). [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 12:53, 8 January 2006 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=34362076]

NLP Principles article - just another attempt at promotion NLP is a fringe and psuedoscientific subject. At one time or other, desperate fanatics have written extra articles on NLP bits and pieces because they were not allowed to promote on this article. Everything can be dealt with on this article. NLP is not rocket science. The principles are explained very well on this article already. HeadleyDown 02:06, 9 January 2006 (UTC)  

NLP Principles article - just another attempt at promotion

NLP is a fringe and psuedoscientific subject. At one time or other, desperate fanatics have written extra articles on NLP bits and pieces because they were not allowed to promote on this article. Everything can be dealt with on this article. NLP is not rocket science. The principles are explained very well on this article already. HeadleyDown 02:06, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes I mentioned in its discussion section that it has already been merged and should be deleted. However, I don't mind if we give the NLPbrains some more months to pour more zealous sweat into it. Then we can delete it anyway:) Cheers DaveRight 03:01, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes I mentioned in its discussion section that it has already been merged and should be deleted. However, I don't mind if we give the NLPbrains some more months to pour more zealous sweat into it. Then we can delete it anyway:) Cheers DaveRight 03:01, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

So that's what FT2 has been busy with. How devious! I was really hoping for the "Bells and Whistles" display of NLP persuasion technology from FT2 and GregA (I was especially hoping for hypnotic metaphor and language and the "sleight of mouth" patterns, commonly misspelled "slight of mouth" by many NLPers, presumably those that haven't mastered the NLP spelling strategy) rather than a quiet exit and the creation of a parallel NLP article. flavius 04:00, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

So that's what FT2 has been busy with. How devious! I was really hoping for the "Bells and Whistles" display of NLP persuasion technology from FT2 and GregA (I was especially hoping for hypnotic metaphor and language and the "sleight of mouth" patterns, commonly misspelled "slight of mouth" by many NLPers, presumably those that haven't mastered the NLP spelling strategy) rather than a quiet exit and the creation of a parallel NLP article. flavius 04:00, 9 January 2006 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=34451688]

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=34605047

== On management science ==

On Comaze's prompting and in the spirit of co-operation I have re-read Dowlen (1996) with a view to determining if the paper can contribute anything to the article regarding NLP "history, epistemology, background, research and usefulness in various management applications" [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Flavius_vanillus#Ashley_Dowlen.27s_.281996.29]].   

 

On Comaze's prompting and in the spirit of co-operation I have re-read Dowlen (1996) with a view to determining if the paper can contribute anything to the article regarding NLP "history, epistemology, background, research and usefulness in various management applications" [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Flavius_vanillus#Ashley_Dowlen.27s_.281996.29].   

    

    

  Dowlen (1996) is neither a literature review, meta-analysis, report of original research or theoretical analysis. It does contain some literature review but it is by no means an attempt to comprehensively review all of the available literature on a topic as per Sharpley (1987). Dowlen's paper is a chatty, largely uncritical (most of the criticisms do not originate from Dowlen but from the authors whose research he reviews) discussion piece. Dowlen is concerned with management learning, i.e. the process of training and developing managers, and the potential relevance of NLP to this field.  

Dowlen (1996) is neither a literature review, meta-analysis, report of original research or theoretical analysis. It does contain some literature review but it is by no means an attempt to comprehensively review all of the available literature on a topic as per Sharpley (1987). Dowlen's paper is a chatty, largely uncritical (most of the criticisms do not originate from Dowlen but from the authors whose research he reviews) discussion piece. Dowlen is concerned with management learning, i.e. the process of training and developing managers, and the potential relevance of NLP to this field.  

    

    

  Dowlen states one of his two main aims as "to investigate aspects of neurolinguistic programming (NLP) that might contribute to management learning" (p.27) However, Dowlen's criteria for evaluation are vague. It appears that Dowlen's logic is   

Dowlen states one of his two main aims as "to investigate aspects of neurolinguistic programming (NLP) that might contribute to management learning" (p.27) However, Dowlen's criteria for evaluation are vague. It appears that Dowlen's logic is   

  :P1. Management learning requires communication and learning skills.  

:P1. Management learning requires communication and learning skills.  

  :P2. NLP appears to provide communication and learning skills.  

:P2. NLP appears to provide communication and learning skills.  

  :C. NLP may be useful to management learning.  

:C. NLP may be useful to management learning.  

    

    

  That is the extent of Dowlen's investigative framework, specific criteria regarding communication  

That is the extent of Dowlen's investigative framework, specific criteria regarding communication and learning skills are not specified.  

  and learning skills are not specified.  

    

    

  Dowlen establishes P1 with reference to some of the management learning literaure. Fair enough. P2 is arrived at via (a) attendance of a two-day NLP seminar; (b) administering an NLP learning and thinking styles questionnaire to his colleagues and himself; (c) reviewing ''some'' of the management learning literature on NLP; and (d) reviewing ''some'' of the research evidence on NLP.  

Dowlen establishes P1 with reference to some of the management learning literaure. Fair enough. P2 is arrived at via (a) attendance of a two-day NLP seminar; (b) administering an NLP learning and thinking styles questionnaire to his colleagues and himself; (c) reviewing ''some'' of the management learning literature on NLP; and (d) reviewing ''some'' of the research evidence on NLP.  

    

    

  Methods (a) and (b) are of little evidentiary value. There is no conceivable reason why Dowlen's subjective report is more authoritative than anyone elses. The only seminar content that Dowlen expresses any criticism of is ''anchoring'': 'I was personally less convinced about the "anchoring" technique.'(p.28) Why he was "less convinced" Dowlen doesn't tell us, his criteria remain obscure. After his two day training Dowlen administered to his "team" and himself a questionaiire named the "Neurolinguistic communication profile" which claims to determine preferred sensory modality for learning and communicating  

Methods (a) and (b) are of little evidentiary value. There is no conceivable reason why Dowlen's subjective report is more authoritative than anyone elses. The only seminar content that Dowlen expresses any criticism of is ''anchoring'': 'I was personally less convinced about the "anchoring" technique.'(p.28) Why he was "less convinced" Dowlen doesn't tell us, his criteria remain obscure. After his two day training Dowlen administered to his "team" and himself a questionaiire named the "Neurolinguistic communication profile" which claims to determine preferred sensory modality for learning and communicating and preferred thinking style (serial and parallel processing, terms taken from IT). Assessment of the test involved a discussion (presumably over tea and biscuits).  

  and preferred thinking style (serial and parallel processing, terms taken from IT). Assessment of the test involved a discussion (presumably over tea and biscuits).  

    

    

  Methods (c) and (d) involved what can only be described as a "half-arsed" literature review. Dowlen's reviews are selective and his selection criteria are not revealed.   

Methods (c) and (d) involved what can only be described as a "half-arsed" literature review. Dowlen's reviews are selective and his selection criteria are not revealed.   

    

    

  In ''On Bullshit'' -- in which Princeton Univeristy philosophy professor Harry G. Frankfurt provides a (serious) philosophical analysis of the notion of ''bullshit'' -- the author makes a distinction between the ''liar'' and the ''bullshitter''. According to Frankfurt, "the fact that about himself that the ''liar'' hides is that he is attempting to lead us away from a correct apprehension of reality; we are not to know that he wants us to believe somthing he supposes to be false. The fact about himself that the ''bullshitter'' hides, on the other hand, is that the truth value of his statements are of no central interest to him; what we are not to understand is that his intention is neither to report the truth nor to conceal it. This does not mean that his speech is anarchically impulsive, but that the motive guiding and controlling it is unconcerned with how the things about which he speaks truly are." (pp.54-5, italics added) Dowlen thus is a bullshitter and his paper is bullshit. It isn't a serious study. If Dowlen revealed the content of his paper over dinner I'd find his conversation interesting and engaging and the degree of rigour would have been appropriate. As a published investigation of NLP vis-a-vis management learning it cannot be taken seriously. Bullshit can't be fruitfully critiqued whereas a lie can. More from Frankfurt, '[t]elling a lie is an act with a sharp focus. It is designed to insert a particular falsehood at a specific point in a set or system of beliefs, in order to avoid the consequences of having that point occupied by the truth. This requires a degree of craftmanship, in which the teller of the lie submits to objective constraints imposed by what he takes to be the truth...On the other hand, a person who undertakes to bullshit his way through has much more freedom. His focus is panoramic rather than particular...it is more expansive and independent, with more spacious opportunities for improvisation, color, and imaginative play. This is less a matter of craft than of art. Hence the familiar notion of the "bullshit artist" (pp.51-53) Dowlen is then a "bullshit artist"'. Dowlen is a management consultant -- a role bullshit artists gravitate towards -- and he is employed at the UK Social Services Department, which like all large bureaucracies, is a bullshitter's stronghold. A perfect match. Bullshitting is the management consultants stock-in-trade. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 10:45, 10 January 2006 (UTC)  

In ''On Bullshit'' -- in which Princeton Univeristy philosophy professor Harry G. Frankfurt provides a (serious) philosophical analysis of the notion of ''bullshit'' -- the author makes a distinction between the ''liar'' and the ''bullshitter''. According to Frankfurt, "the fact that about himself that the ''liar'' hides is that he is attempting to lead us away from a correct apprehension of reality; we are not to know that he wants us to believe somthing he supposes to be false. The fact about himself that the ''bullshitter'' hides, on the other hand, is that the truth value of his statements are of no central interest to him; what we are not to understand is that his intention is neither to report the truth nor to conceal it. This does not mean that his speech is anarchically impulsive, but that the motive guiding and controlling it is unconcerned with how the things about which he speaks truly are." (pp.54-5, italics added) Dowlen thus is a bullshitter and his paper is bullshit. It isn't a serious study. If Dowlen revealed the content of his paper over dinner I'd find his conversation interesting and engaging and the degree of rigour would have been appropriate. As a published investigation of NLP vis-a-vis management learning it cannot be taken seriously. Bullshit can't be fruitfully critiqued whereas a lie can. More from Frankfurt, '[t]elling a lie is an act with a sharp focus. It is designed to insert a particular falsehood at a specific point in a set or system of beliefs, in order to avoid the consequences of having that point occupied by the truth. This requires a degree of craftmanship, in which the teller of the lie submits to objective constraints imposed by what he takes to be the truth...On the other hand, a person who undertakes to bullshit his way through has much more freedom. His focus is panoramic rather than particular...it is more expansive and independent, with more spacious opportunities for improvisation, color, and imaginative play. This is less a matter of craft than of art. Hence the familiar notion of the "bullshit artist" (pp.51-53) Dowlen is then a "bullshit artist"'. Dowlen is a management consultant -- a role bullshit artists gravitate towards -- and he is employed at the UK Social Services Department, which like all large bureaucracies, is a bullshitter's stronghold. A perfect match. Bullshitting is the management consultants stock-in-trade. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 10:45, 10 January 2006 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=34605047]

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=34855609

== Anchoring (Discussion with Comaze) ==

Comaze, I've discussed the matter of theory vis-a-vis NLP more than I would have liked in an (apparently vain) attempt to demonstrate to you that the claim to being ''atheoretical'' is false and is merely a philosophically naive means of evading justification and substantiation. NLP is theory laden both implicitly and explicitly. I remind you that you are yet to answer my criticisms which you concede are significant and substantive. I listened to the recent Bandler MP3 and the Grinder Quicktime that you referred me to and in both of those interviews B&G communicate more than one theory in their explanantions of NLP and modeling. For example, they both contend that all behavior is learnt, that poor performance and mental disease is learnt and that the remedy is more learning (Grinder is more concerned with excellence than disease but the message is the same). For those that are interested the media are to be found at www.nlpmp3.com (Bandler interview) and www.inspiritive.com.au (Grinder interview). Both are recent interviews and provide useful checkpoints of confirmation that the critical content of the article is "on track". The usual pattern of B&G is that they will happily enunciate theories about mental illness, performance, neurology, cognition, memory, ethics and everything else but when they are met with contradiction they retreat into the "we don't do theory" defence. It is also noteworthy that in the interview Bandler claims that advances in neurochemistry and neurology confirm NLPs implicit theories of learning, memory and cognition. Beyerstein and Levelt's criticisms thus remain especially relevant. The amount of shit pouring out of Bandler's mouth in that interview is disgusting. Both B&G explicitly reference naive pop-neurology brain lateralization ideas in their interviews. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 05:36, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=34866643

== "Mindless NLP drone" ==

:::I disagree. Anchoring is just classical/Pavlovian conditioning (B&G explicitly state this much in ''Frogs'' I'll provide the page ref later) and it is unrelated to NLPs core, i.e. its information processing "model" of mind and that model's central notion of memory and experience being encoded in terms of sensory information. Although anchoring is widely and consistently taught by many trainers it is actually peripheral to NLP: it is ''content'' (a "pattern") and its teaching or explanation doesn't communicate anything of what distinguishes NLP. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 22:56, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=34890494

== Is NLP pseudoscience? ==

Dejakitty, it is undisputable that you've contributed nothing to the article or the discussion that precedes the article. You are a trivial distraction attempting to spread your "brainwashing" to others with the usual banal NLP psycho-cult ''agitprop'' that I've heard and read many times before. That you are a mindless NLP drone is evident in the banality that you offer in defence of NLP -- you mouth the same words as the NLP herd, you have no mind of your own. Structurally, your behaviour is indistinguishable from that of Scientologists, only the specific details differ. Also none of your bullshit NLP persuasion and rapport skills will work here, they only work in seminars and amongst the NLP herd that is willing to participate in the idiotic ritual. Like all NLP zealots -- despite your self-delusions about magically changing beliefs and persuading -- you couldn't shift a belief or persuade someone if your life depended on it. Who of any of the pro-NLP editors have demonstrated "exquisite communication skills", "belief changing linguistic wizardry" or "power persuasion"? Comaze? GregA? FT2? You? The distinguishing trait of all of the pro-NLP editors thus far is insipidity of intellect and of writing. Unable to make your "patterns" work like they do in seminars you -- and your cohorts -- resort to evasion or plainly malicious and devious conduct. Your involvement will not "push this page forward". Rather, it will drag it down. If you want to advance the NLP article then go away. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 14:41, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Comaze, you are mis-representing a fundamental tenet of NLP. The NLP conception of behaviour admits of no biological or genetic factors. Bandler has stated in at least one seminar that I've heard that even schizophrenia is learnt, that schizophrenics nuerochemistry is aberrant because their thinking causes them to produce "those chemicals". In the same seminar Bandler claims that he cured schizophrenics through dialysis, that the dialysis unit removed the "toxic chemicals" from the blood of the schizophrenic thereby effecting a cure. Bandler added that the relapses are due to persistent thinking patterns that produce the "toxic chemicals" (IIRC this was at one of the Indian seminars that he did in the 1990s.) There is nowhere in the NLP "model" to place biological and genetic influences upon behaviour. It is an NLP dogma that ''all'' behaviour is learnt. Propagating this dogma has immense pecuniary value in that NLP proponents can attract desperate people. Also it is utter bullshit that if someone can do something then anyone can learn it and it is not merely presented as a useful belief, it is presented by Bandler and Grinder as factual. AFAIK the only cognitive function that has been demonstrated to be localised within a region of the brain is language. There is no evidence that I am aware of for any other localisation of function. How do you ''use'' contralateralization? Grinder and Bostic St Clair live in a hermetically sealed bubble of self-delusion and narcissism into which criticism can not penetrate. Beyerstein is an authority on neuropsychology and Levelt is an authority on psycholinguistics and linguistics. Have Grinder and Bostic St Clair acknowledged Beyerstein and Levelt's criticisms and answered them? How could this proposed collaboration possibly work given that the consesnus of scientific opinion has judged NLP to be false, ineffective and pseudoscientific? Why would genuine scientists collaborate with pseudoscientists? On the one hand Bandler and Grinder contend that bodies of knowledge and experts that dispute the value and effectiveness of NLP are worthless and that NLP has all the answers (this attitude is evident is ''Whispering'', on the ''Whispering'' forum and in Bandler's seminars and interviews) yet they want to be seen to be associated with these bodies of knowledge and experts that they disparage when it suits them. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 15:13, 12 January 2006 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=34893487]

Comaze, you are mis-representing a fundamental tenet of NLP. The NLP conception of behaviour admits of no biological or genetic factors. Bandler has stated in at least one seminar that I've heard that even schizophrenia is laernt, that schizophrenics nuerochemistry is aberrant because their thinking causes them to produce "those chemicals". In the same seminar Bandler claims that he cured schizophrenics through dialysis, that the dialysis unit removed the "toxic chemicals" from the blood of the schizophrenic thereby effecting a cure. Bandler added that the relapses are due to persistent thinking patterns that produce the "toxic chemicals" (IIRC this was at one of the Indian seminars that he did in the 1990s.) There is nowhere in the NLP "model" to place biological and genetic influences upon behaviour. It is an NLP dogma that ''all'' behaviour is learnt. Propagating this dogma has immense pecuniary value in that NLP proponents can attract desperate people. Also it is utter bullshit that if someone can do something then anyone can learn it and it is not merely presented as a useful belief, it is presented by Bandler and Grinder as factual. AFAIK the only cognitive function that has been demonstrated to be localised within a region of the brain is language. There is no evidence that I am aware of for any other localisation of function. How do you ''use'' contralateralization? Grinder and Bostic St Clair live in a hermetically sealed bubble of self-delusion and narcissism into which criticism can not penetrate. Beyerstein is an authority on neuropsychology and Levelt is an authority on psycholinguistics and linguistics. Have Grinder and Bostic St Clair acknowledged Beyerstein and Levelt's criticisms and answered them? How could this proposed collaboration possibly work given that the consesnus of scientific opinion has judged NLP to be false, ineffective and pseudoscientific? Why would genuine scientists collaborate with pseudoscientists? On the one hand Bandler and Grinder contend that bodies of knowledge and experts that dispute the value and effectiveness of NLP are worthless and that NLP has all the answers (this attitude is evident is ''Whispering'', on the ''Whispering'' forum and in Bandler's seminars and interviews) yet they want to be seen to be associated with these bodies of knowledge and experts that they disparage when it suits them. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 15:13, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

''I'' told you to go away, Dejakitty. Your asinine post above demonstrates that you should have followed my suggestion. The more you write the more credibility you lose. You've managed to confirm my assessment of the NLP-proponents thus far as intellectually insipid. Have you decided to fill the now vacant position of the "Aaron Kulkis Chair of Solipsistic Inquiry"? Aaron did heaps towards advancing the interest of NLP didn't he? Also, for your education "NLP practice and principles are completely wrong, then NLP presuppositions are completely wrong" is an assertion. You haven't demonstrated that this is the case. If that is your conclusion then you will need to supply the premises:

B&G may not explicitly state that "NLP is a science" (Bandler may have said this in one of his rambling monologues, I'd have to suffer through the CDs and DVDs I haven't yet binned to find out) but NLP has most of the trappings of pseudoscience. No, NLP is indeed ''not'' a science but its proponents -- inluding B&G -- pretend that it is scientific. Why do B&G talk about neurology if NLP lacks even the pretence of being scientific (as you are contending)? NLP is competing with scientific disciplines for "mindshare" and "cultural space". B&G present their own theories regarding learning, memory, thinking, mental illness, emotion, consciousness, neurology, motivation, language and perception that are largely inconsistent with the findings of scientific disciplines that cover these domains. If B&G are positing theories in an area that is the province of science then they are preseneting NLP as something scientific. Transformational Grammar is dead and Bateson's double-bind theory of schizophrenia was discredited decades ago. You mention "NLP theory of schizophrenia". NLP then ''is'' competing with scientifically based fields (neuropsychiatry, neuropharmacology, genetics, psychiatry) in providing understanding and treatment of schizophrenia. Mental illness treatment is the province of science. Hence NLP is presenting itself as a scientific field. Beyerstein is cited by Tye and Levelt is cited by Drenth. Also Levelt is a monument in psycholinguistics, as the director of the Max Planck Institute of Psycholinguistics his professional opinion counts for much. If Levelt says that NLP is unininformed about linguistics you can be very confident that NLP is uninformed about linguistics. You mention one unanswered paper, I can cite 20 or so unanswered papers. It matters not that certains professionals learn and/or practice NLP. Many professionals -- even psychiatrists -- are Scientologists. What of it? Couldn't we parameterise "we have people from all around the world including those studying psychiatry, cognitive science, golf coaching, business, presentation skills, business management, IT, engineering -- the majority of participants use X as an adjunct to their existing roles in life, based on feedback setting well-formed outcomes was the most useful" and let X be one of {Scientology, Silva Mind Control Method, Huna, Magick, EST, Tensegrity, Theosophy, Anthroposophy, Breatharianism, Knowledge (Prem Rawat), Shamanism} and still have a true statement? The vital point is that "feedback [from] setting well-formed outcomes [which] was the most useful" does not count as evidence for efficacy. Subjective report is no basis upon which to make statements about the universe. Your criterion fails to honour the notions of ''actual'' efficacy (versus ''apparent'' efficacy) and it is unconcerned with ''truth''. Throughout the history of medicine all of the bogus therapies such as blood-letting met your criterion of "feedback [from] setting well-formed outcomes [which] was the most useful" for their practitioners. George Washington was convinced that blood-letting had curative properties (most likely because of the ''post hoc ergo propter hoc'' fallacy) else he wouldn't have been such an enthusisatic practitioner and exponent. It was blood-letting that eventually killed Washington. Unfortunately for Washington the universe was indifferent to his subjective assessments of utility. [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 02:34, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

:P1 "NLP practice and principles are completely wrong"  

::...  

::P''n''  

::C "NLP presuppositions are completely wrong" 

:No-one actually stated that "NLP practice and principles are completely wrong". What has been stated is that when NLP practice has been tested it has been found to be largely ineffective, that there is no evidence to support the claims of the efficacy of NLP and that NLP theory is inconsistent with understandings obtained from neurology, psychiatry, genetics, linguistics, psycholinguistics, social psychology, cognitive psychology and psychopathology. It is ''logically'' possible for NLP patterns/practice to be ineffective and the presuppositions to be true and it is also ''logically'' possible that the NLP patterns/practice to be true and the presuppositions to be false. The two can be refuted independently of each other. You appear to lack basic clear-thinking skills and your English composition skills are appalling. As a persuader you suck because you can't formulate a sound argument and your ill-formed arguments are poorly presented. For example, "This is what I think given that NLP is completely wrong. Since dejakitty is completely wrong, so it is wrong for dejakitty to say NLP is completely wrong". Even if it were true that "NLP is completely wrong" it is not possible to deduce from that premise that "dejakitty is completely wrong". This is the structure of your reasoning:  

 

:P1. X is A. "...given that NLP is completely wrong"  

:C. Y is A. "Since dejakitty is completely wrong"  

  ::No-one actually stated that "NLP practice and principles are completely wrong". What has been stated is that when NLP practice has been tested it has been found to be largely ineffective, that there is no evidence to support the claims of the efficacy of NLP and that NLP theory is inconsistent with understandings obtained from neurology, psychiatry, genetics, linguistics, psycholinguistics, social psychology, cognitive psychology and psychopathology. It is ''logically'' possible for NLP patterns/practice to be ineffective and the presuppositions to be true and it is also ''logically'' possible that the NLP patterns/practice to be true and the presuppositions to be false. The two can be refuted independently of each other. You appear to lack basic clear-thinking skills and your English composition skills are appalling. As a persuader you suck because you can't formulate a sound argument and your ill-formed arguments are poorly presented. For example, "This is what I think given that NLP is completely wrong. Since dejakitty is completely wrong, so it is wrong for dejakitty to say NLP is completely wrong". Even if it were true that "NLP is completely wrong" it is not possible to deduce from that premise that "dejakitty is completely wrong". This is the structure of your reasoning:  

  :::P1. X is A. "...given that NLP is completely wrong"  

  :::C. Y is A. "Since dejakitty is completely wrong"  

    

    

  :::P1. Y is A "...dejakitty is completely wrong"  

:P1. Y is A "...dejakitty is completely wrong"  

  :::C. Z is A "...it is wrong for dejakitty to say NLP is completely wrong"  

:C. Z is A "...it is wrong for dejakitty to say NLP is completely wrong"  

    

    

  ::These aren't arguments they are just assertions. A deductive argument needs at least two premises and the two premises must overlap in subject, eg.  

These aren't arguments they are just assertions. A deductive argument needs at least two premises and the two premises must overlap in subject, eg.  

  :::P1. An inability to reason effectively is a trait of gullible people.  

:P1. An inability to reason effectively is a trait of gullible people.  

  :::P2. Dejakitty is unable to reason effectively.  

:P2. Dejakitty is unable to reason effectively.  

  :::C. Dejakitty is a gullible person.  

:C. Dejakitty is a gullible person.  

    

    

  ::Most of your post is ungrammatical to the point of being unparseable and incomprehensible: 'Therefore this is just dejakitty's completely weak attempt brainwashing HeadleyDown, Flavius to response back with keywords like scientology, brainwash, NLP-fanatics, go-away, pseudoscience, devious conduct, zealots, mindless drone etc, since it is wrong to say that "You are in charge of your mind and therefore your results."' Exquisite communication. Also, since when did behavioral flexibility entail believing unsubstantiated claims? [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 03:37, 13 January 2006 (UTC)  

Most of your post is ungrammatical to the point of being unparseable and incomprehensible: 'Therefore this is just dejakitty's completely weak attempt brainwashing HeadleyDown, Flavius to response back with keywords like scientology, brainwash, NLP-fanatics, go-away, pseudoscience, devious conduct, zealots, mindless drone etc, since it is wrong to say that "You are in charge of your mind and therefore your results."' Exquisite communication. Also, since when did behavioral flexibility entail believing unsubstantiated claims? [[User:Flavius vanillus|flavius]] 03:37, 13 January 2006 (UTC) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=34977052]

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=35007412

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=35007412

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=37522689

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Neuro-linguistic_programming&diff=prev&oldid=37522689

== New Paper Published in Peer-Reviewed Highly Regarded Journal Critical of NLP ==  

== New Paper Published in Peer-Reviewed Highly Regarded Journal Critical of NLP ==