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| | + | [http://www.mywikibiz.com/Special:Emailuser/Peter_Z. Email] |
| | == My Discussion Page == | | == My Discussion Page == |
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| | '''Thanks'''-Peter Z | | '''Thanks'''-Peter Z |
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| − | == Research on Wikipedia’s Communist Propaganda Articles (former Yugoslavia)==
| + | ---- |
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| − | Is Wikipedia taking on a darker tone? Where are the ethical and moral issues involved in creating articles with old communist propaganda rhetoric. This part of Wikipedia is not encyclopedic work, pure and simple.
| + | == Wikikpedia Review == |
| − | [http://www.mywikibiz.com/Directory:The_Wikipedia_Point_of_View#History The Wikipedia Point of View-History]
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| | | | |
| − | == The Balkan World According to Wikipedia ==
| + | Hi this is good - see if you can edit the talk pages of the parent article. If not, leave something in my talk directory and I will edit it in. Do you not belong to [http://wikipediareview.com/ Wikikpedia Review]? That is the place where all the dirt is dished, these days. There is a major scandal going on at the moment. [[User:Ockham|Ockham]] 11:56, 8 October 2009 (PDT) |
| − | According to Wikipedia if a Commander happens to lose 100 000 POWs after WW2, it is not that important. Sixty years latter it was established that they were murdered and place in old mine shafts, caves and forrests. The information is not to be mention in his biography as it is irrelevant.
| + | :: Hm mm, there seems to be a lot more of dirt being dished out than I realized. Thanks for that! [[User:Peter Z.|Peter Z.]] 19:49, 9 October 2009 (PDT) |
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| − | On the 23th of April in 1948, in a speech '''Harry Truman''' (the President of USA) stated:
| + | == Hi == |
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| − | ''"I am told that Tito murdered more than 400 000 of the opposition in Yugoslavia before he got himself established there as a dictator"'' | + | Hi - I have reorganised your article somewhat by placing a parent article in mainspace (click the link for 'parent article'), which will contain links to all the bad historyarticles in Wikipedia. I have moved and edited material in your article and placed it in the parent article. The child article will then be expressly about the former Yugoslavia and its history, or rather, about the treatment in the Wikipedia articles compared to the modern independent scholarly view. I have looked at some of the Wikipedia articles and you seem to have stumbled upon a real can of worms. Well done. I have edited the article to remove some of the strident turns of phrase you have used - to make a really strong and forceful case it is necessary to speak quieter, rather than louder. Regards [[User:Ockham|Ockham]] 04:16, 4 October 2009 (PDT) |
| | + | : PS See my links about Bleiburg [http://www.mywikibiz.com/User_talk:Ockham/Wikipedia_%26_Political_Agendas#The_Bleiberg_massacre] - the edits by 'Direktor' are laughable. [[User:Ockham|Ockham]] 04:43, 4 October 2009 (PDT) |
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| − | Reference from:[http://books.google.com/books?id=-Xkv7ym8hDYC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Keeping+Tito+Afloat:+The+United+States,+Yugoslavia,+and+the+Cold+War&client=safari&cd=1#v=snippet&q=%20tito%20trade%20papers%20four%20hundred%20thousand&f=false Keeping Tito Afloat] by Lorraine M. Lees & [http://books.google.com/books?id=cgPc0rsBxSAC&pg=PA219&dq=josip+broz+Tito++harry+truman&cd=5#v=onepage&q=josip%20broz%20Tito%20%20harry%20truman&f=false Woodrow Wilson and Harry Truman: Mission and Power in American Foreign Policy] by Anne R. Pierce
| + | I can see this is all coming on nicely! I am not always around but feel free to leave a message. [[User:Ockham|Ockham]] 05:18, 21 October 2009 (PDT) |
| − | ''(declassified documents from the 1990s)''
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| − | | |
| − | *Lorraine M. Lees is an associate professor of history at Old Dominion University in Virginia, USA.
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| − | *Anne R. Pierce Ph. D. Political Science from the University of Chicago. Independent Scholar & Author/USA [http://annerpierce.com/home/index.php]
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| − | | |
| − | == Notes on References ==
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| − | '''Contemporary views''' of Josip Broz that are clealy referenced:
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| − | *'''BBC'''.UK/History Partisans: War in the Balkans 1941 - 1945 By Dr Stephen A Hart
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| − | The article is written in the post ''Berlin Wall'' world. The Wiki article '''does not''' have the [[BBC]] as it's '''source'''.
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| − | This encyclopaedic articles clearly state the dark truth about Tito and his Army-[http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/partisan_fighters_01.shtml#six Partisans: War in the Balkans 1941-1945]
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| − | *Dr Stephen A Hart is senior lecturer in war studies at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst. He is the author of The Road to Falaise: Operations "Totalize" & "Tractable" (Alan Sutton, 2004), "Montgomery " and "Colossal Cracks": The 21st Army Group in Northwest Europe, 1944-45 (Praeger, 2000).
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| − | *'''Zdravko Dizdar''' [http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=hr&u=http://www.isp.hr/index.php%3Foption%3Dcom_content%26task%3Dview%26id%3D66%26Itemid%3D38&ei=VUn1SvGFEcaDkAXR0vmfAw&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3DZdravko%2BDizdar%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den-us]: In Mr Dizdar's ''Scientific Journal''-An Addition to the Research of the Problem of Bleiburg & Way of the Cross -[http://hrcak.srce.hr/index.php?show=clanak&id_clanak_jezik=27516&lang=en Hrcak Portal of Scientific Journals of Croatia] states that Tito asked the "Croatian Home Guard" to surrender or face the consequences of not surrendering. After the war ended POWs who did not surrender were slaughter on mass, estimates are about 100 000 victims in total.
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| − | *'''Encyclopaedia Britannica'''-The article is written post ''Berlin Wall'' but it's thin in terms of information, but does not hold back on economic realities: ''"At his death, the state treasury was '''empty.'''"''
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| − | | |
| − | The Wiki article has Encyclopaedia Britannica under its ''Notes'' section as it's source, it might be just cosmetic.
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| − | | |
| − | *'''BBC''' UK/History by Tim Judah: ''"The economy was built on the shaky foundations of massive western loans."'' The article is also written in the post '''Berlin Wall''' world. The Wiki article '''does not''' have the [[BBC]] as it's '''source'''.
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| − | *'''Tim Judah''' is a front line reporter for The Economist and author. A graduate of the London School of Economics and of the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University he worked for the BBC before becoming the Balkans correspondent for The Times and The Economist. Judah is also the author of the prizewinning The Serbs: History, Myth and the Destruction of Yugoslavia, published in 1997 by Yale University Press.
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| − | == David W. Del Testa ==
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| − | '''David W. Del Testa''' has a Ph.D. in History from the University of California at Davis.
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| − | The below referenced information is from 'Government Leaders, Military Rulers and Political Activists: An Encyclopaedia of People Who Changed the World (Lives & Legacies Series)’ by David W. Del Testa.
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| − | ''Yugoslavia under Tito was a curious combination of relative economic and cultural freedom and total political repression and control. The lack of political freedom made debate on the role of ethnic identity in Yugoslavia impossible. Tito’s regime had created temporary stability in a historically unstable region. Treated almost as a mythic hero in his lifetime, Tito’s image began to decay in the years following his death, undermining the legitimacy of the regime so connected to his cult of personality.'''
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| − | David W. Del Testa’s statement succinctly sums up Josip Broz and his political life. One could say it is well balanced in the objective sense.
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| − | == Ivo Goldstein ==
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| − | | |
| − | *'''Ivo Goldstein''': 'Croatia A History', a Mc Gill Queen’s University Press Publication.
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| − | :''“Self -management as system was only slightly more efficient than the Soviet model. It was bureaucratised and cumbersome and could not compete with Western economies. People could obtain so much free or for less than the market price (e.g. apartments) that they could be obtain without work. All this made the settling of accounts in the 1980s and in the post-socialist age more difficult.”''
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| − | | |
| − | :''“In Tito’s system no interest or ideas could be expressed in a truly democratic way. This did most harm where feelings of ethnic identity were concerned because their suppression led to growth of extreme nationalism. Furthermore, the economic failure of Tito’s system, most clearly expressed in the protracted crisis of the 1980s, left people who even if they were not poor, were disillusioned and open to manipulation by demagogues. Finally Tito’s practical solutions ensured that he would retain unlimited power during his life time, but foreshadowed the problems would come after his death.”
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| − | ''
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| − | This is a factual statement, written in Ivo Goldstein: 'Croatia A History'. Josip Broz and his fellow communist were committing economic management suicide. The Wiki article does not have Ivo Goldstein as it's source.
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| − | :The articles clearly state:
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| | | | |
| − | :1. Josip Broz Tito’s failure in adressing ethnic tensions of the former Yugoslavia;
| + | == Oh dear == |
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| − | :2. Failure in the economic management of the former of Yugoslavia; | + | [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sir_Floyd Oh dear]. Toddst is an idiot, believe me. [[User:Ockham|Ockham]] 16:53, 31 May 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | '''Note''': Ivo Goldstein is a Professor at the University of Zagreb
| + | == FYI == |
| − | The University of Zagreb [http://www.unizg.hr/homepage/] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Zagreb] (1669) is the oldest and biggest university in South-Eastern Europe. The university has 29 faculties, three art academies and the Centre for Croatian Studies. With its comprehensive programmes and over 50,000 full-time undergraduate and postgraduate students. The University is the strongest teaching institution in Croatia. It offers a wide range of academic degree courses leading to Bachelor's, Master's and Doctoral degrees in the following fields: Arts, Biomedicine, Biotechnology, Engineering, Humanities, Natural and Social Sciences.
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| − | == Commission on Concealed Mass Graves in Slovenia-Republic of Slovenia == | + | FYI, see [http://www.mywikibiz.com/index.php?title=Yagan_Memorial&diff=121814&oldid=120900 this edit], which was prompted by an e-mail request to me. The page is unlocked now, so you'd need to make an edit, any edit, to re-lock it to yourself. -- [[User:MyWikiBiz|MyWikiBiz]] 20:03, 16 July 2010 (UTC) |
| | + | :Thanks MyWikiBiz! [[User:Peter Z.|Peter Z.]] 01:22, 17 July 2010 (UTC) |
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| − | '''Commission on Concealed Mass Graves in Slovenia'''-created by Government of the Republic of Slovenia.
| + | == Concerning Racism and Wikipedia == |
| | | | |
| − | Academics involved:
| + | Peter, |
| − | *'''Joze Dezman''': Slovenian Historian-Director of the National Museum of Contemporary History-Ljubljana (Slovenian) National Museum of Contemporary History- Slovenia
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| − | *'''Mitja Ferenc''': Slovenian Historian-University of Ljubljana
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| − | (Identification of Skeletal Remains of Communist Armed Forces Victims During and After World War II [http://www.cmj.hr/2009/50/3/19480024.htm Croatian Medical Journal])
| + | As you might have noticed, the material on that page is by [[Gregory Kohs]]. If you haven't done so yet, I'm sure he would appreciate if you drop him a line or two. You seemed to have a special concern for the history rewriting and other Balkan complex issues. These should be a no brainer if people respect the principle of neutrality. Even if there were ten different views of the same events they should all be presented together with their sources. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't have the foggiest idea of what that means. They believe that there is one NPOV, and that one and only that one should be described as historic fact. Even more unfortunate is the inability of the sysops to uphold that principle, mostly because they are biased themselves. |
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| − | '''Titoism & Totalitarianism''': | + | My work is far from complete. There are other topics that I still have not approached. If you believe you have any material that fits into what I'm trying to develop, please feel free to edit and contribute. |
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| − | *Abuse of national sentiment to carry out racial and class revolutionary projects;
| + | Sincerely, |
| − | * Cult of a great leader, who permits his fanatics to murder, steal and lie;
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| − | * Dictatorship of one party;
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| − | * Militarization of society, police state – almighty secret political police;
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| − | * Collectivism, subjection of the citizen to the totalitarian state;
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| − | * State terrorism with systematic abuses of basic human rights;
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| − | * Aggressive assumption of power and struggle for territory.
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| | | | |
| − | Ref: Joze Dezman CRIMES COMMITTED BY
| + | Virgilio A. P. Machado |
| − | TOTALITARIAN REGIMES page 197 Slovenian Presidency of the-EU 2008 [http://www.mp.gov.si/fileadmin/mp.gov.si/pageuploads/2005/PDF/publikacije/Crimes_committed_by_Totalitarian_Regimes.pdf]
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| − | '''Mass killings without court trials''':
| + | [[User:Vapmachado|vapmachado]] <sup>[[User talk:Vapmachado|msgs.cw]]</sup> 02:17, 10 July 2011 (UTC) |
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| − | ''The Main Headquarters of the Yugoslav Army had already called attention to respecting the Geneva Convention on 3 May in its order on the treatment of prisoners of war. However, despite this injunction, both prisoners of war and civilians were killed massively at the end of May and in the first half of June 1945 in Slovenia. Tito’s telegram on respecting the Geneva Convention was later revoked; however, it could only be revoked by the person who issued it in the first place, i.e. '''Tito himself'''.''
| + | == best == |
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| − | ''The killings without a trial were most massive in the first months after the war in 1945 and continued until the beginning of 1946. How extensive these killings were is illustrated by the fact that 581 hidden graves of victims of post-war killings without a court trial have thus far been found in the territory of Slovenia.''
| + | ciao, I am your old Italian friend of wikipedia: you are the best editor of ex Yugoslavia related articles! Your account -Sir Floyd- is signature which means guarantee of documentation and competence: congratulations for your articles in this site! Further, I have some relatives in Australia: I admire Australian people and I like Australian rules football--[[User:Ziogemmo|Ziogemmo]] 14:52, 16 January 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | Ref: Milko Mikola CRIMES COMMITTED BY TOTALITARIAN REGIMES page 163 Slovenian Presidency of the-EU 2008 [http://www.mp.gov.si/fileadmin/mp.gov.si/pageuploads/2005/PDF/publikacije/Crimes_committed_by_Totalitarian_Regimes.pdf]
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| − | '''Note''': '''Natasa Kandic''' [http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/interviews/24056/?tpl=304&tpid=147]
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| − | Call for Cross-border War Crimes ‘Truth Commission’ By Pedja Obradovic-30 November 2009
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| − | ''A broad regional coalition of civil society associations from the countries of the former Yugoslavia is planning to strongly pressure the succession countries into forming regional commissions to establish the facts on war crimes and other severe violations of human rights.''
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| − | Natasa Kandic: Founder and Director, Humanitarian Law Center, Serbia and Montenegro.
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| − | *'''Serbia''' to Uncover Mass Graves-Belgrade 13 August 2009 [http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/21609/]
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| − | ''The Serbian Justice Ministry has announced that a state commission will be formed by September to mark out uncovered mass graves from 1944-46, daily Danas reported Thursday.The graves are thought to contain victims of Yugoslav leader Josip Broz Tito's Partisans.''
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| − | == Dr. Zoran Bozic: Tito ordered massacre of the Croatian population in May and June 1945==
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| − | The purpose of this [http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=hr&u=http://www.safaric-safaric.si/materiali_cro/bozic/20090624%2520IKA%2520Bozic%2520Tito%2520kontrolirao%2520genocid%2520na%2520terenu.pdf&ei=qpFFS5iJGsuHkQWm0uj8Ag&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAsQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTito%2Bkontrolirao%2Bgenocid%2Bna%2Bterenu%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den-us presentation] is to contribute to the formulation and established chain of command and composition of the genocide perpetrators of one sixth of the entire Croatian population in May and June 1945. In this preparation partisan sources were used exclusively.
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| − | '''Dr. Zoran Bozic''' an official of the Croatian Association of Victims of Communism.
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| − | (Doctor from Zagreb -Croatia, Master of Medical Science and has done 20 years intensive research into ''partisan communists'' in the former Yugoslavia)
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| − | == Mr Dizdar's ''Scientific Journal'' Study Notes==
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| − | *''Item A''-An Addition to the Research of the Problem of Bleiburg & Way of the Cross
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| − | '''Translated:''' Josip Broz Tito, the supreme commander of the NOV and PO-Yugoslavia and President of the National Committee of Liberation of Yugoslavia, sent on 30 August. 1944:
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| − | ''"Last call to all deluded servants of the occupiers and to all Domobrani Croatian, Slovenian Domobrancima and seduced Chetniks to leave the occupier and surrender to the National Liberation Army by September 15, 1944, with a threat to all those who do not, will be brought before a war court, judged as traitors and punished by the strictest punishment and concerning on the issue of the Allies, they will not interfere in our internal matters and that no one will not stop to punish the traitors of the people and servants occupying forces."
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| − | ''(See: N. BARIC, 2003, 496. / faksimil letka/) page 121
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| − | *''Item B''- '''Z. Dizdar''': An Addition to the Research of the Problem of Bleiburg & Way of the Cross
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| − | According to the research of ''Z.Dizdar'', Partisan General Aleksandar Rankovic [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandar_Ranković] [http://files.osa.ceu.hu/holdings/300/8/3/text/86-3-147.shtml] was only answerable to Tito (page 128). Aleksandar Rankovic play a major role in these executions and the only person that could to give Rankovic such an order, was Tito. The report also states that there were huge Camps housing POWs, amongst them were women and children. On page 183 it states that there were 24 000 children in the camps.
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| − | == Genocide Carried out by the Tito Partisans/Danube Swabian History ==
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| − | Genocide Carried out by the Tito Partisans 1944-1948 [http://www.dvhh.org/history/genocide/index.htm]
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| − | Other Genocide & Ethnic Cleansing:
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| − | *Hungains & Italians [http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=lang_en&id=RWZLZaxPUXQC&oi=fnd&pg=PA8&ots=xdn2wNxBWP&sig=WN_VKCu5q6lVUOsSoxHdPJGiB-w#v=snippet&q=killed&f=false]
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| − | ''Ref'' from: Communist Retaliation and Persecution on Yugoslav Territory During and After WWII by Dr. phil. Michael Portmann
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| − | Michael Portamm: [http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.grin.com/profile/27606/michael-portmann&prev=/search%3Fq%3DDr.%2Bphil.%2BMichael%2BPortmann%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den-us&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhhB2BcrXAczmLe3LjqB9UefbI_GwA Author Profile] 2003-2005 Fellow of the ZEIT Foundation in Hamburg, doctoral studies at the University of Vienna (Dr. phil.). [http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://histkomm.thinkabit.net/index.php%3Fpage%3D112%26menu%3D259&ei=zbNKS8vpKs-gkQXdmuj8Ag&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CB8Q7gEwBQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3DDr.%2Bphil.%2BMichael%2BPortmann%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den-us]
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| − | Professional activities: Since 2006, staff at the Historical Commission of the Academy, since 2008 Lecturer at the Universities of Vienna and Bern.
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| − | | |
| − | == User:Debona.michel==
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| − | "Basically, we are dealing with a small group of mostly young, very aggressive, (extreme) nationalist/jingoist/chauvinist, passionate (24/7), degree-less students who have decided that Wikipedia is their domain/soap box and a no one should get in their way." (8 January 2010)
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| − | == Wikikpedia Review ==
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| − | | |
| − | Hi this is good - see if you can edit the talk pages of the parent article. If not, leave something in my talk directory and I will edit it in. Do you not belong to [http://wikipediareview.com/ Wikikpedia Review]? That is the place where all the dirt is dished, these days. There is a major scandal going on at the moment. [[User:Ockham|Ockham]] 11:56, 8 October 2009 (PDT)
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| − | :: Hm mm, there seems to be a lot more of dirt being dished out than I realized. Thanks for that! [[User:Peter Z.|Peter Z.]] 19:49, 9 October 2009 (PDT)
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| − | | |
| − | == Hi ==
| |
| − | | |
| − | Hi - I have reorganised your article somewhat by placing a parent article in mainspace (click the link for 'parent article'), which will contain links to all the bad historyarticles in Wikipedia. I have moved and edited material in your article and placed it in the parent article. The child article will then be expressly about the former Yugoslavia and its history, or rather, about the treatment in the Wikipedia articles compared to the modern independent scholarly view. I have looked at some of the Wikipedia articles and you seem to have stumbled upon a real can of worms. Well done. I have edited the article to remove some of the strident turns of phrase you have used - to make a really strong and forceful case it is necessary to speak quieter, rather than louder. Regards [[User:Ockham|Ockham]] 04:16, 4 October 2009 (PDT)
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| − | : PS See my links about Bleiburg [http://www.mywikibiz.com/User_talk:Ockham/Wikipedia_%26_Political_Agendas#The_Bleiberg_massacre] - the edits by 'Direktor' are laughable. [[User:Ockham|Ockham]] 04:43, 4 October 2009 (PDT)
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| − | I can see this is all coming on nicely! I am not always around but feel free to leave a message. [[User:Ockham|Ockham]] 05:18, 21 October 2009 (PDT)
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Email
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Thanks-Peter Z
Wikikpedia Review
Hi this is good - see if you can edit the talk pages of the parent article. If not, leave something in my talk directory and I will edit it in. Do you not belong to Wikikpedia Review? That is the place where all the dirt is dished, these days. There is a major scandal going on at the moment. Ockham 11:56, 8 October 2009 (PDT)
- Hm mm, there seems to be a lot more of dirt being dished out than I realized. Thanks for that! Peter Z. 19:49, 9 October 2009 (PDT)
Hi
Hi - I have reorganised your article somewhat by placing a parent article in mainspace (click the link for 'parent article'), which will contain links to all the bad historyarticles in Wikipedia. I have moved and edited material in your article and placed it in the parent article. The child article will then be expressly about the former Yugoslavia and its history, or rather, about the treatment in the Wikipedia articles compared to the modern independent scholarly view. I have looked at some of the Wikipedia articles and you seem to have stumbled upon a real can of worms. Well done. I have edited the article to remove some of the strident turns of phrase you have used - to make a really strong and forceful case it is necessary to speak quieter, rather than louder. Regards Ockham 04:16, 4 October 2009 (PDT)
- PS See my links about Bleiburg [1] - the edits by 'Direktor' are laughable. Ockham 04:43, 4 October 2009 (PDT)
I can see this is all coming on nicely! I am not always around but feel free to leave a message. Ockham 05:18, 21 October 2009 (PDT)
Oh dear
Oh dear. Toddst is an idiot, believe me. Ockham 16:53, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
FYI
FYI, see this edit, which was prompted by an e-mail request to me. The page is unlocked now, so you'd need to make an edit, any edit, to re-lock it to yourself. -- MyWikiBiz 20:03, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks MyWikiBiz! Peter Z. 01:22, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
Concerning Racism and Wikipedia
Peter,
As you might have noticed, the material on that page is by Gregory Kohs. If you haven't done so yet, I'm sure he would appreciate if you drop him a line or two. You seemed to have a special concern for the history rewriting and other Balkan complex issues. These should be a no brainer if people respect the principle of neutrality. Even if there were ten different views of the same events they should all be presented together with their sources. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't have the foggiest idea of what that means. They believe that there is one NPOV, and that one and only that one should be described as historic fact. Even more unfortunate is the inability of the sysops to uphold that principle, mostly because they are biased themselves.
My work is far from complete. There are other topics that I still have not approached. If you believe you have any material that fits into what I'm trying to develop, please feel free to edit and contribute.
Sincerely,
Virgilio A. P. Machado
vapmachado msgs.cw 02:17, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
best
ciao, I am your old Italian friend of wikipedia: you are the best editor of ex Yugoslavia related articles! Your account -Sir Floyd- is signature which means guarantee of documentation and competence: congratulations for your articles in this site! Further, I have some relatives in Australia: I admire Australian people and I like Australian rules football--Ziogemmo 14:52, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
