Changes

== Skoppensbauer (December 2006) ==

== Skoppensbauer (December 2006) ==

=== From Skopp's [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Zoophilia&oldid=92371032 talk page] (Dec 2006) ===

=== From Skopp's [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Zoophilia&oldid=92371032 talk page] (Dec 2006) ===

Hardly. It's a simple conclusion based on the facts at hand. Once again, I invite you to peruse Medline. There are some peer reviewed, published studies on this topic in the literature, as you'll see there, but they seemingly do not warrant inclusion on the Zoophila and Zoosexuality pages on WP, the reasons for which I'll allow you to conclude. Unfortunately, quite a few areas in psychology and medicine are plagued by this lack of quality research. This fact should not be hidden; if the research is missing, let us not laud the opinions and writings that stand in its place. Skopp (Talk) 02:20, 11 June 2007 (UTC)  

Hardly. It's a simple conclusion based on the facts at hand. Once again, I invite you to peruse Medline. There are some peer reviewed, published studies on this topic in the literature, as you'll see there, but they seemingly do not warrant inclusion on the Zoophila and Zoosexuality pages on WP, the reasons for which I'll allow you to conclude. Unfortunately, quite a few areas in psychology and medicine are plagued by this lack of quality research. This fact should not be hidden; if the research is missing, let us not laud the opinions and writings that stand in its place. Skopp (Talk) 02:20, 11 June 2007 (UTC)  

 

FT2, the points you make do not refute the point I made. If you disagree with me, I suggest you ask someone who is a true medical or psychological expert for comment. In the last decade, there has been a big swing towards evidence-based medicine (please read that wikipage). Under the new regime, much of the preceding research is inadequate, and not only in this area -- far from it! The fact that someone is published in the field, or has a doctorate, or is well-known, or has had their writings vetted by somebody else of note, is utterly irrelevant. Much higher standards now apply for the publication of research, especially in august and pre-eminent journals. I think your understanding of this point is seriously flawed, especially when you point to journals like the one put out by The International Society for Anthrozoology. This is not a recognised journal. It is not indexed by Medline and is not formally recognized in the fields of medicine or psychology. And lastly, it is not a peer-reviewed journal. From the journal's own website [1] we see they state: "Each issue contains (non-refereed) articles on topics related to the human-animal relationship, interviews with key figures in the field, book announcements, conference news and so forth." Skopp (Talk) 23:40, 20 June 2007 (UTC)  

FT2, the points you make do not refute the point I made. If you disagree with me, I suggest you ask someone who is a true medical or psychological expert for comment. In the last decade, there has been a big swing towards evidence-based medicine (please read that wikipage). Under the new regime, much of the preceding research is inadequate, and not only in this area -- far from it! The fact that someone is published in the field, or has a doctorate, or is well-known, or has had their writings vetted by somebody else of note, is utterly irrelevant. Much higher standards now apply for the publication of research, especially in august and pre-eminent journals. I think your understanding of this point is seriously flawed, especially when you point to journals like the one put out by The International Society for Anthrozoology. This is not a recognised journal. It is not indexed by Medline and is not formally recognized in the fields of medicine or psychology. And lastly, it is not a peer-reviewed journal. From the journal's own website [1] we see they state: "Each issue contains (non-refereed) articles on topics related to the human-animal relationship, interviews with key figures in the field, book announcements, conference news and so forth." Skopp (Talk) 23:40, 20 June 2007 (UTC)  

=== A very very bad editor ===  

=== A very very bad editor ===  

I'm still significantly less than happy about the approach and style exhibited on these articles, in some ways and areas. I see that this is likely to become a source of abrasion, and I would like to avoid that before it does so more than it already is.

I'm still significantly less than happy about the approach and style exhibited on these articles, in some ways and areas. I see that this is likely to become a source of abrasion, and I would like to avoid that before it does so more than it already is.

Last, please note that this request isn't really intended as a place to debate whether such perspectives are justified or otherwise. It is my perception that there are concerns and that mediation is needed. That is my perception and I have felt it for some time now. I feel it to be a current problem affecting things at this time that is interfering with neutrality and editorial collaboration on more than one article. I would hope that by thus discussing the editorial approaches we have with a third party, we can come to see more eye to eye and with more certainty what is within policy and what is out of order, and hope that you will agree to the same, rather than decline it, so that we can proceed to discuss such concerns in a constructive and collaborative manner. Thanks. FT2 (Talk | email) 21:47, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Last, please note that this request isn't really intended as a place to debate whether such perspectives are justified or otherwise. It is my perception that there are concerns and that mediation is needed. That is my perception and I have felt it for some time now. I feel it to be a current problem affecting things at this time that is interfering with neutrality and editorial collaboration on more than one article. I would hope that by thus discussing the editorial approaches we have with a third party, we can come to see more eye to eye and with more certainty what is within policy and what is out of order, and hope that you will agree to the same, rather than decline it, so that we can proceed to discuss such concerns in a constructive and collaborative manner. Thanks. FT2 (Talk | email) 21:47, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

You have no real idea of my POV. I've tried hard to credit you with good faith editing, but increasingly your edits look to me like the activity of a person who has a less than dispassionate interest in the topic of zoophilia, since virtually every edit you make has the effect of minimizing, trivializing, supporting and even encouraging that lifestyle and zoosexual activities. I think it is very dangerous for topics of psychological, sexual and medical information to be edited by people who suffer from the disorders under discussion (in this case the disorder zoophilia, listed as a paraphilia by DSM-IV). What we end up with are ridiculously bloated and elaborate articles like the one at zoophilia, obsessively and ornately decorated with minutiae of interest to paraphilics only. And many people have commented its absurd length, convolutedness and distastefully proselytizing tone. I agree with that view, so clearly we cannot work together, but I'm far less convinced that your appeal to your network of friends and contacts at WP to intervene will help matters. Do I have a choice in who mediates? If so, I'll consider it. I also think your irritating habit of making wholesale changes to the work of others, simply to suit your tastes, and often simultaneously ignoring the clear requests for discussion and consensus, makes you an example of a very, very bad editor for WP indeed. Skoppensboer 22:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)  

You have no real idea of my POV. I've tried hard to credit you with good faith editing, but increasingly your edits look to me like the activity of a person who has a less than dispassionate interest in the topic of zoophilia, since virtually every edit you make has the effect of minimizing, trivializing, supporting and even encouraging that lifestyle and zoosexual activities. I think it is very dangerous for topics of psychological, sexual and medical information to be edited by people who suffer from the disorders under discussion (in this case the disorder zoophilia, listed as a paraphilia by DSM-IV). What we end up with are ridiculously bloated and elaborate articles like the one at zoophilia, obsessively and ornately decorated with minutiae of interest to paraphilics only. And many people have commented its absurd length, convolutedness and distastefully proselytizing tone. I agree with that view, so clearly we cannot work together, but I'm far less convinced that your appeal to your network of friends and contacts at WP to intervene will help matters. Do I have a choice in who mediates? If so, I'll consider it. I also think your irritating habit of making wholesale changes to the work of others, simply to suit your tastes, and often simultaneously ignoring the clear requests for discussion and consensus, makes you an example of a very, very bad editor for WP indeed. Skoppensboer 22:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)  

 

Again, that's bad faith, immediately responding to a suggestion that we seek mediation by characterizing the request, the mediation process, the mediators, and the mediation committee in terms of "I'm far less convinced that your appeal to your network of friends and contacts at WP to intervene will help matters". Of course there is choice who mediates. It surely wouldn't be acceptable to parties in any dispute if they didn't both trust the mediator and the mediation process. Whilst no one party gets to "choose" the mediator, both can express dissatisfaction of any suggested mediator, or express a preference between those who do offer themselves, for example. Read the page on Wikipedia:Mediation and if you then feel able to accept mediation please say so. Thanks. FT2 (Talk | email) 22:26, 5 December 2006 (UTC)  

Again, that's bad faith, immediately responding to a suggestion that we seek mediation by characterizing the request, the mediation process, the mediators, and the mediation committee in terms of "I'm far less convinced that your appeal to your network of friends and contacts at WP to intervene will help matters". Of course there is choice who mediates. It surely wouldn't be acceptable to parties in any dispute if they didn't both trust the mediator and the mediation process. Whilst no one party gets to "choose" the mediator, both can express dissatisfaction of any suggested mediator, or express a preference between those who do offer themselves, for example. Read the page on Wikipedia:Mediation and if you then feel able to accept mediation please say so. Thanks. FT2 (Talk | email) 22:26, 5 December 2006 (UTC)