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<span id="body0"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Thekohser</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thank you, Martin. As always, you're helpful even while criticizing. I agree that the Arch Coal article was improved for the general reader by the inclusion of environmental criticism. I suppose with just about any coal-mining company, that could be the case. </div></div><br /><br />You're ignoring one rather important fact: the current article on Arch Coal was a complete rewrite form the ground up by me, ab initio, from a blank page, without the content imported from your wiki. This was made clear in the deletion review, which endorsed deletion of the COI version: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ADeletion_review%2FLog%2F2006_October_5&diff=80432256&oldid=80379872" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?titl...&oldid=80379872</a><br /><br /><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Thekohser</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> doubted what I said, I do have in mind two paid articles that MyWikiBiz authored that had diligent citation, as well as commentary critiquing the subject of the article. One was for an electronics retailer whose Internet presence had been critiqued by a reliable source, and the other was about a pharmaceutical remedy that had controversial social implications cited by an independent source.</div></div><br /><br />So you say, but you refuse to tell us which they are, so we only have your word for it, and I'm sorry but your word is not a good enough source for evaluation of your own neutrality.<br /><br /><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Thekohser</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, let's get that POLL up and running, shall we?? </div></div><br /><br />You expect a different result from the last poll? Despite the fact that you flatly refuse to cite the examples? I think that's a bit naive.</span>
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<span id="number388">#388</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">05:26 AM</span>
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<span id="subject1">Re: Paid editing</span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=386&#Post386" target="_new" title="[Re: #386]" alt="[Re: #386]" rel="nofollow"> Thekohser</a>]
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<span id="body1"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Thekohser</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm curious where everyone stands on what has been the most important Wikipedia concern for me over the past two years. That's the phenomenon of paid-for editing. Essentially, I view that there are about 5 different positions that a knowledgeable observer might have. Which do you subscribe to, or have I missed one?</div></div><br /><br />Do not underestimate the extent to which this is utterly unimportant to most people other than you. I know your starting point here is wanting to make money out of editing Wikipedia, which might be problematic given your ban for abusive sockpuppetry, but really for most people, editing for pay is not even a side issue.<br /><br />I'm not going to respond individually to your lettered points partly because they contain subtle bias (i.e. begging the question) and partly because my answer is the same to all of them:<br /><br />Why should unpaid editors have to be watching for the conflicted edits of people being paid to edit? We already have people editing with a clear conflict of interest, my advice to such people is to comment on the talk page and not to edit the article except to correct unambiguous errors of fact. This is what I tell them via OTRS and it's what I tell them on Wikipedia, and I don't see any reason to tell them any different. <br /><br />And there is a <i>big</i> difference between a company employee writing in Wikipedia, and a company setting up to make money by doing something that pretty much the entire Wikipedia community does for nothing. It's anathema to the entire philosophy of a volunteer-run encyclopaedia. Paid editing is what happens in print encyclopaedias, where the expertise of the contributor can be vetted by an editorial board. And frankly I don't see a need: Wikipedia explicitly is not part of your PR campaign. If a firm sees not having a Wikipedia article as a big deal, they are probably not much of a firm. <br /><br />Very often we find that the more determined someone is to be on Wikipedia, the more likely it is that they should not be.</span>
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<span id="number390">#390</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">07:07 AM</span>
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<span id="subject2">Re: Paid editing</span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=388&#Post388" target="_new" title="[Re: #388]" alt="[Re: #388]" rel="nofollow"> <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></a>]
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<span id="body2"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></div><div class="ubbcode-body">Very often we find that the more determined someone is to be on Wikipedia, the more likely it is that they should not be.</div></div><br /><br />I hope that everyone can understand what just happened above. Thanks to an argument that he was losing -- 15 months after the fact -- Guy Chapman <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log/delete&page=Arch_Coal" target="_blank"><b>DELETED from public view</b></a> the <i>original</i> MyWikiBiz-authored (and J.smith-posted) article about Arch Coal, so that he can say "his" rewrite is completely different from the original, and nobody will be able to argue that point, since the transcript of the original is gone!<br /><br />Behavior like this reflects the actions of a child. It's appalling. Talk about conflict of interest! Talk about picking up his ball and running home to Mommie. Indeed, <i>very often we find that the more determined someone is to be on Wikipedia, the more likely it is that they should not be</i>. Perhaps these people should "RETIRE" from Wikipedia... AGAIN.<br /><br />For those who need a cluehammer, I would recommend that JzG's unnecessary and out-of-process oversighting of the Arch Coal pages from prior to October 5, 2006 be restored. Official admonishment of <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> is at the admin community's discretion.<br /><br />If you feel that it is THIS type of childish behavior that is making Wikipedia a more difficult place to build an encyclopedia free of petty, juvenile politics ("<i>my</i> article is better than <i>your</i> article, and I'm going to <i>delete</i> your article because I banned you"), now is the time to voice your concern over JzG's increasingly erratic and selfish behavior.<br /><br />Greg</span>
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<span id="number391">#391</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">07:23 AM</span>
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<span id="subject3">Re: Paid editing</span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=390&#Post390" target="_new" title="[Re: #390]" alt="[Re: #390]" rel="nofollow"> Thekohser</a>]
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<span id="body3">After I see the <b style="color:black;background-color:#99ff99">WikBack</b> community reaction to JzG's on-wiki actions of January 2nd, I will be happy to dismantle most of JzG's above points, one by one. However, I'm not going to waste my time doing that in this forum if the general consensus is that JzG's January 2nd oversight actions are appropriate in some way. I need some assurance that I am carrying on a dialogue with an ethical community.<br /><br />Greg</span>
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<span id="number393">#393</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">08:25 AM</span>
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<span id="subject4">Re: Paid editing</span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=391&#Post391" target="_new" title="[Re: #391]" alt="[Re: #391]" rel="nofollow"> Thekohser</a>]
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<span id="body4">This points to an <a href="http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=15096&view=findpost&p=71763" target="_blank">attempt to show the differences</a> between the original MyWikiBiz article and the one Guy Chapman wrote as a "complete rewrite form (<i>sic</i>) the ground up by me, ab initio, from a blank page".<br /><br />If you're not disgusted by this, you really shouldn't be working on an encyclopedia project.</span>
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<span id="number394">#394</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">09:29 AM</span>
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<span id="subject5">Re: Paid editing</span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=390&#Post390" target="_new" title="[Re: #390]" alt="[Re: #390]" rel="nofollow"> Thekohser</a>]
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<span style="display: none;" id="username394"><b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></span>
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<span id="body5"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Thekohser</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></div><div class="ubbcode-body">Very often we find that the more determined someone is to be on Wikipedia, the more likely it is that they should not be.</div></div><br /><br />I hope that everyone can understand what just happened above. Thanks to an argument that he was losing -- 15 months after the fact -- Guy Chapman <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log/delete&page=Arch_Coal" target="_blank"><b>DELETED from public view</b></a> the <i>original</i> MyWikiBiz-authored (and J.smith-posted) article about Arch Coal, so that he can say "his" rewrite is completely different from the original, and nobody will be able to argue that point, since the transcript of the original is gone!<br /><br />Behavior like this reflects the actions of a child. It's appalling. Talk about conflict of interest! Talk about picking up his ball and running home to Mommie. Indeed, <i>very often we find that the more determined someone is to be on Wikipedia, the more likely it is that they should not be</i>. Perhaps these people should "RETIRE" from Wikipedia... AGAIN.<br /><br />For those who need a cluehammer, I would recommend that JzG's unnecessary and out-of-process oversighting of the Arch Coal pages from prior to October 5, 2006 be restored. Official admonishment of <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> is at the admin community's discretion.<br /><br />If you feel that it is THIS type of childish behavior that is making Wikipedia a more difficult place to build an encyclopedia free of petty, juvenile politics ("<i>my</i> article is better than <i>your</i> article, and I'm going to <i>delete</i> your article because I banned you"), now is the time to voice your concern over JzG's increasingly erratic and selfish behavior.<br /><br />Greg<br /> </div></div><br />That's a complete misrepresentation. The deletion review I cited noted the fact that the article had been rewritten, which it had - I rewrote it from scratch using sources I found. I forgot, at the time, to perform the housekeeping action of removing the version which triggered Jimbo's deletion. Nothing more.<br /><br />There is no reason to have the version Jimbo deleted lying around, because it is not required for GFDL, because the current version started form a brand new article that I wrote from scratch, form sources I found, not using your version at all.<br /><br />Thank you for pointing out that I'd forgotten to do this bit of housekeeping.</span>
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<span id="number398">#398</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">09:43 AM</span>
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<span id="subject6">Re: Paid editing</span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=390&#Post390" target="_new" title="[Re: #390]" alt="[Re: #390]" rel="nofollow"> Thekohser</a>]
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<span id="body6"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Thekohser</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></div><div class="ubbcode-body">Very often we find that the more determined someone is to be on Wikipedia, the more likely it is that they should not be.</div></div><br /><br />I hope that everyone can understand what just happened above. Thanks to an argument that he was losing -- 15 months after the fact -- Guy Chapman <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log/delete&page=Arch_Coal" target="_blank"><b>DELETED from public view</b></a> the <i>original</i> MyWikiBiz-authored (and J.smith-posted) article about Arch Coal, so that he can say "his" rewrite is completely different from the original, and nobody will be able to argue that point, since the transcript of the original is gone!<br /><br />Behavior like this reflects the actions of a child. It's appalling. Talk about conflict of interest! Talk about picking up his ball and running home to Mommie. Indeed, <i>very often we find that the more determined someone is to be on Wikipedia, the more likely it is that they should not be</i>. Perhaps these people should "RETIRE" from Wikipedia... AGAIN.<br /><br />For those who need a cluehammer, I would recommend that JzG's unnecessary and out-of-process oversighting of the Arch Coal pages from prior to October 5, 2006 be restored. Official admonishment of <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> is at the admin community's discretion.<br /><br />If you feel that it is THIS type of childish behavior that is making Wikipedia a more difficult place to build an encyclopedia free of petty, juvenile politics ("<i>my</i> article is better than <i>your</i> article, and I'm going to <i>delete</i> your article because I banned you"), now is the time to voice your concern over JzG's increasingly erratic and selfish behavior.<br /><br />Greg<br /> </div></div><br />As I said above, no, I did not do this so I could say my rewrite is completely different from the original - it <i>was</i> completely rewritten from the ground up from original sources.<br /><br />I have taken the original deleted revision, in case any non-admin <i>does</i> want to compare them, and placed it at <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:MyWikiBiz/Arch_Coal&oldid=182123799" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:MyWikiBiz/Arch_Coal&oldid=182123799</a>. <br /><br />But it changes nothing: Jimbo deleted the article, I rewrote it from scratch, and the Jimbo deleted version is not required for GFDL and should have been re-deleted, because that was the conclusion of the deletion review.<br /><br />Here's the rewrite: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Arch_Coal&oldid=79689733" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Arch_Coal&oldid=79689733</a>. You'll note it cites three sources, and I don't think any of them were cited in your version.<br /><br />As to "an argument he was losing" - well, we'll have to wait and see. Banned users have no particular say on Wikipedia, so it's not as if the argument is important, but actually the way to win your argument would be to point out the articles you say were not spotted, because those are the real test cases - this was deleted, after all, and deletion endorsed due to a rewrite.</span>
<span class="edited-wording"><br /><br /><span class="small"><em>Edited by <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> (<span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">09:48 AM</span>)<br />Edit Reason: linky</em></span></span>
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<span id="number401">#401</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">10:44 AM</span>
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<span id="subject7">Re: Paid editing</span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=398&#Post398" target="_new" title="[Re: #398]" alt="[Re: #398]" rel="nofollow"> <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></a>]
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<span id="body7"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></div><div class="ubbcode-body">As I said above, no, I did not do this so I could say my rewrite is completely different from the original - it <i>was</i> completely rewritten from the ground up from original sources. </div></div><br /><br />{{fact}}?<br /><br />Guy, you're <b>embarrassing</b> yourself now, in your attempt to be judge and jury of your own COI. You had it in for MyWikiBiz from August 2006, that is without question. Jimbo deleted a MyWikiBiz/J.smith article on October 5, 2006. YOU just "happen" to be the one who supposedly re-writes it from (the word is "from", not <i>form</i>) the ground up, and YOU just happen to be the one who determines that the WP:DRV concluded that the original must be deleted, and then -- 15 months later -- YOU actually delete the original? <br /><br />See the <a href="http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=15096&view=findpost&p=71763" target="_blank">comparison</a> of the two articles on Wikipedia Review. They are <b>very</b> similar.<br /><br />Now I'm going to really <b>embarrass</b> you, <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b>, but you undoubtedly asked for it. According to <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Arch_Coal&limit=500&action=history" target="_blank">the Arch Coal article history</a> which you haven't yet oversighted to cover your tracks, the article was in "blank" form and last touched by you at 17:48, 5 October 2006. Then, by some miracle of British productivity, you researched and created <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Arch_Coal&oldid=79689733" target="_blank">this <b>entire article</b> from <i>scratch</i></a> and posted it to Wikipedia at 18:14, 5 October 2006? And even within that time, you were posting dialog <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ADeletion_review%2FLog%2F2006_October_5&diff=80432256&oldid=80379872" target="_blank">to the DRV</a> itself, not <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2006_October_5&diff=prev&oldid=79685134" target="_blank">once</a>, but <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2006_October_5&diff=prev&oldid=79685515" target="_blank">twice</a>!<br /><br />You honestly expect the <b style="color:black;background-color:#99ff99">WikBack</b> community and the Wikipedia community to faithfully believe that you constructed that entire article <i>from scratch</i> without aid of what MyWikiBiz/J.smith had previously done, all while a DRV was ongoing, all while participating in the DRV, all in the course of <b>26 minutes</b>? You're telling us it's just a coincidence of some epic proportion that you found the <b>same</b> history of the company's complex mergers, the <b>same</b> locations of the mines, the <b>same</b> CEO's and President's names (and you even wikilink|piped them <b>EXACTLY the same</b> as MyWikiBiz/J.smith), the <b>same</b> number of employees and year of that estimate, the <b>same</b> link to the NYSE ticker, the <b>same</b> corporate logo image and link to that image, and the <b>same</b> wikilinks for the words "subsidiary" and "sulfur" in an article of that incredible length -- and you managed to concoct this preposterous coincidence all in the course of <b>26 minutes</b>!?<br /><br />This may be the funniest fabrication ever devised by someone trying to hide a simple error in judgment.<br /><br />If I have made a "personal attack" by calling out the facts about this matter, then moderators should ban me from this message board. Considering the above assassination of my character and this mockery of respect for authorship on Wikipedia under the GFDL, I would hope that someone ELSE ought to be banned from this message board, though. <br /><br />Is anyone else READING this? Is anyone else disgusted by the arrogant description of these preposterous coincidences inflicted by the King of Conflict of Interest?<br /><br />Greg</span>
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<span id="number403">#403</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">12:12 PM</span>
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<span id="subject8">Re: Paid editing</span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=401&#Post401" target="_new" title="[Re: #401]" alt="[Re: #401]" rel="nofollow"> Thekohser</a>]
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<span id="body8">I'm sorry, but I thought this thread was about the concept of paid editing. It looks to me like <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> and Thekohser need to take their personal dispute to the Cage match - it's long past adding anything of value to the topic.</span>
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<span id="number404">#404</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">12:18 PM</span>
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<span id="subject9">Re: Paid editing</span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=401&#Post401" target="_new" title="[Re: #401]" alt="[Re: #401]" rel="nofollow"> Thekohser</a>]
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<span id="body9">(Looks like I got an "edit conflict" with Michael Snow here - I more or less echo what he says too. Though I guess you wouldn't call it an "edit" conflict on a forum <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/default/smile.gif" alt="\:\)" title="smile" height="15" width="15" /> )<br /><br />Everyone, please avoid the <i>ad hominem</i> attacks (asking this as a host here). This discussion started out quite interesting and fruitful, and paid editing is a difficult issue that could really use more such discussion.</span>
<span class="edited-wording"><br /><br /><span class="small"><em>Edited by Krimpet (<span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">12:23 PM</span>)</em></span></span>
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<span id="number407">#407</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">12:26 PM</span>
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<span id="subject10">Re: Paid editing</span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=404&#Post404" target="_new" title="[Re: #404]" alt="[Re: #404]" rel="nofollow"> Krimpet</a>]
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<span id="body10">Another edit conflict - I've moved this last page of discussion to the cage match so that hopefully Guy and Greg can try to work out their differences while the other thread can contrinue in relative calm <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/default/smile.gif" alt="\:\)" title="smile" height="15" width="15" /><br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />Martin.</span>
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<span id="number410">#410</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">12:47 PM</span>
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<span id="subject11">Re: Paid editing</span>
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<span id="body11"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Krimpet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Everyone, please avoid the <i>ad hominem</i> attacks (asking this as a host here). This discussion started out quite interesting and fruitful, and paid editing is a difficult issue that could really use more such discussion. </div></div><br /><br />I'm sorry, I thought that <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> has "closed" the discussion on paid editing, since a "supermajority" has opposed the concept back in October 2006? There was also no need for a "second" poll on this, since the results of the "first" poll (wherever THAT may freakin' be) were so decisive. We were also told that nobody cares about paid editing, since the MSNBC poll garnered only 1,000+ votes.<br /><br />I'm sorry to be so snarky, but it's just pitiful.<br /><br />By all means, keep discussing the issue of paid editing. Or, has it concluded as I described above?<br /><br />Greg</span>
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<span id="number415">#415</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">01:05 PM</span>
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<span id="subject12">Re: Paid editing</span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=410&#Post410" target="_new" title="[Re: #410]" alt="[Re: #410]" rel="nofollow"> Thekohser</a>]
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<span id="body12"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Thekohser</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Krimpet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Everyone, please avoid the <i>ad hominem</i> attacks (asking this as a host here). This discussion started out quite interesting and fruitful, and paid editing is a difficult issue that could really use more such discussion. </div></div><br /><br />I'm sorry, I thought that <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> has "closed" the discussion on paid editing, since a "supermajority" has opposed the concept back in October 2006? There was also no need for a "second" poll on this, since the results of the "first" poll (wherever THAT may freakin' be) were so decisive. We were also told that nobody cares about paid editing, since the MSNBC poll garnered only 1,000+ votes.<br /><br />I'm sorry to be so snarky, but it's just pitiful.<br /><br />By all means, keep discussing the issue of paid editing. Or, has it concluded as I described above?<br /><br />Greg </div></div><br /><br /><b>Moderator's note:</b><br /><br />There are precisely four people who can declare a discussion closed, here. When that happens, an icon of a padlock will appear next to this thread. Code is law, after all. Please don't make this happen when we have avoided it thus far; I find the topic interesting, in a non-urgent sort of way, and I would hate to have to lock it down.<br /><br />Mr. Chapman, please stop baiting Mr. <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Kohs</b>.<br /><br />Mr. <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Kohs</b>, please stop letting Mr. Chapman bait you.</span>
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<span id="number416">#416</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">01:37 PM</span>
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<span id="subject13">Re: Paid editing</span>
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<span style="display: none;" id="username416"><b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></span>
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<span id="body13"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Martinp23</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Another edit conflict - I've moved this last page of discussion to the cage match so that hopefully Guy and Greg can try to work out their differences while the other thread can contrinue in relative calm <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/default/smile.gif" alt="\:\)" title="smile" height="15" width="15" /></div></div><br />It's unlikely that Gregory and I will resolve our differences, as he believes he should be free to make money form Wikipedia and I should be hounded out of the project, whereas I believe that I should be free to edit Wikipedia and he should stay banned, not least because of his attempts to bring the Wikimedia Foundation down by complaints to state government and, he claims, the IRS. That neither of these has apparently been taken seriously is not, in my view, an excuse.</span>
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<span id="number417">#417</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">01:38 PM</span>
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<span id="subject14">Re: Paid editing</span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=410&#Post410" target="_new" title="[Re: #410]" alt="[Re: #410]" rel="nofollow"> Thekohser</a>]
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<span id="body14"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Thekohser</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Krimpet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Everyone, please avoid the <i>ad hominem</i> attacks (asking this as a host here). This discussion started out quite interesting and fruitful, and paid editing is a difficult issue that could really use more such discussion. </div></div><br /><br />I'm sorry, I thought that <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> has "closed" the discussion on paid editing, since a "supermajority" has opposed the concept back in October 2006? There was also no need for a "second" poll on this, since the results of the "first" poll (wherever THAT may freakin' be) were so decisive. We were also told that nobody cares about paid editing, since the MSNBC poll garnered only 1,000+ votes.<br /><br />I'm sorry to be so snarky, but it's just pitiful.<br /><br />By all means, keep discussing the issue of paid editing. Or, has it concluded as I described above?<br /><br />Greg </div></div><br /><br />Yes, <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> and others have expressed their opposition to paid editing - but that doesn't equal consensus, and a significant number of respectable folks have things to say too, as evidenced by the beginning of the discussion, and as an independent forum we encourage discussion on this. But it really needs to remain civil and constructive to avoid degenerating into a tit-for-tat battle, which so many heated issues on Wikipedia seem to eventually become.</span>
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<span id="number431">#431</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">02:40 PM</span>
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<span id="subject15">Re: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></span>
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<span id="body15">Speaking hypothetically, would the restoration of the two edits which <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> deleted have a net effect of increasing or decreasing drama? (just a note due to confusion wrt the name of this thread compared to that in the "Regarding wikipedia" forum - this is in the cage match for (heated) discussion primarily between <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> and Thekosher).<br /><br />Martin</span>
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<span id="number433">#433</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">02:42 PM</span>
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<span id="subject16">Re: Paid editing</span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=416&#Post416" target="_new" title="[Re: #416]" alt="[Re: #416]" rel="nofollow"> <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></a>]
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<span id="body16">I have no continued interest in making money from (or form) Wikipedia. In fact, I have recently negotiated a deal to completely re-design and re-brand the MyWikiBiz.com website to be an independent, semantic wiki directory, suitable for any person or enterprise that has been deemed "non-notable" for Wikipedia. Users may protect their pages from vandalism, and they may take 100% of the ad revenues or product sales generated by their pages on MyWikiBiz.com.<br /><br />It is thus inaccurate to say that I have an interest in making money via Wikipedia. This argument is one of <i>principle</i>, Guy. Please try to respect that and don't poison the well with misinformation about my ambitions. The business of getting paid to create GFDL content for consideration by Wikipedians shut down in October 2006. It is now January 2008.</span>
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<span id="number434">#434</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">02:45 PM</span>
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<span id="subject17">Re: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></span>
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<span id="body17"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Martinp23</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Speaking hypothetically, would the restoration of the two edits which <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> deleted have a net effect of increasing or decreasing drama? (just a note due to confusion wrt the name of this thread compared to that in the "Regarding wikipedia" forum - this is in the cage match for (heated) discussion primarily between <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> and Thekosher).<br /><br />Martin </div></div><br />Speaking literally, for myself, that would have the net effect of honoring the GFDL license, which is how I agreed to have my creative work licensed, and it would therefore decrease the drama from my corner. I would still hope that <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> would apologize for his error of judgment, but I'm not going to stand on my head for that.<br /><br />How <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> reacts to having such an important alteration of his reverted, only Guy Chapman can speak to the drama-effect of that.<br /><br />Greg</span>
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<span id="number436">#436</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">02:54 PM</span>
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<span id="subject18">Re: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></span>
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<span id="body18">Just to clarify - I'm not taking a side on whether Guy did or did not create the article from scratch... I was just surprised when I saw those two deleted edits earlier today, which seemed to be in such a state for no real reason (from my perspective as a total newcomer to the dispute)</span>
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<span id="number456">#456</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">04:40 PM</span>
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<span id="subject19">Re: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></span>
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<span id="body19"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Speaking hypothetically, would the restoration of the two edits which <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> deleted have a net effect of increasing or decreasing drama?</div></div><br /><br />Speaking literally, for myself, that would have the net effect of honoring the GFDL license, which is how I agreed to have my creative work licensed, and it would therefore decrease the drama from my corner.</div></div><br /><br />Does this really matter to you that much? As someone unfamiliar with this conflict, I find it hard to believe that either of you two really care about this.<br /><br />Greg, have you considered sending a DMCA takedown notice?</span>
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<span id="number485">#485</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">07:38 PM</span>
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<span id="subject20">Re: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></span>
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<span id="body20"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Anthony</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does this really matter to you that much? As someone unfamiliar with this conflict, I find it hard to believe that either of you two really care about this.<br /><br />Greg, have you considered sending a DMCA takedown notice? </div></div><br /><br />This article didn't matter that much to me at all until Jimbo decided to use it to prove some kind of WP:POINT about paid editing, even though the article never had any taint of payment or corporate PR. After Jimbo's actions, I took a deep interest in the article and the issues surrounding it, for a couple of months.<br /><br />Then my interest waned. For another 12 or 13 months it waned.<br /><br />Then for a still-ponderous reason, <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> decided to prove another WP:POINT by violating the article's GFDL origin, and yes, that made me "really care" about this again. The fact that it's anti-paid-editing crusader <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> doing the meddling makes it all the more a conflict of interest and simply an obvious attempt to make trouble where there wasn't an iota of disturbance.<br /><br />"Trollish" behavior like that typically gets regular users blocked. I suppose <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> might get a barnstar for it.<br /><br />Speaking of "really caring" about this -- my amazement is actually growing, now that nearly an entire workday has passed, and nobody has had either the ethical backbone or the courage to face JzG's wrath, and reverted his oversight. That speaks volumes about the ethos of Wikipedia's community managers.<br /><br />Greg</span>
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<span id="number487">#487</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">07:41 PM</span>
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<span id="subject21">Re: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=436&#Post436" target="_new" title="[Re: #436]" alt="[Re: #436]" rel="nofollow"> Martinp23</a>]
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<span id="body21"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Martinp23</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just to clarify - I'm not taking a side on whether Guy did or did not create the article from scratch... I was just surprised when I saw those two deleted edits earlier today, which seemed to be in such a state for no real reason (from my perspective as a total newcomer to the dispute) </div></div><br /><br />Martin, would you please elaborate on your reasoning why you are "not taking a side"? Is there not enough evidence for you to form an opinion? Or, are you saying you're not taking a side, for the best interests of the <b style="color:black;background-color:#99ff99">WikBack</b> community?<br /><br />Greg</span>
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<span id="number494">#494</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">08:27 PM</span>
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<span id="subject22">Re: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=487&#Post487" target="_new" title="[Re: #487]" alt="[Re: #487]" rel="nofollow"> Thekohser</a>]
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<span id="body22"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Thekohser</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><br />Martin, would you please elaborate on your reasoning why you are "not taking a side"? Is there not enough evidence for you to form an opinion? Or, are you saying you're not taking a side, for the best interests of the <b style="color:black;background-color:#99ff99">WikBack</b> community?<br /></div></div><br /><br />Both. Guy has told us that he did it from the ground up, and not having access to his innermost thoughts, I can't confidently say he's lying. On the other hand, the versions are fairly similar - that's not to say that he copied from one to the other directly, changing little parts of it. What he saw of your old version would almost certainly influence his choice of what to write (or at least, would for me), but we really can't say for certain that he copied it directly. So, that's why I'm not sure.<br /><br />I asked the question I did because it would seem to be a damaged control measure to me - and I'd certainly support it. However, there may well be strong reasons against it...</span>
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<span id="number501">#501</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">09:00 PM</span>
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<span id="subject23">Re: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></span>
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<span id="body23"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Martinp23</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can't confidently say he's lying. On the other hand, the versions are fairly similar - that's not to say that he copied from one to the other directly... </div></div><br />What do you think the chances are of this exact string of characters recurring in a "from the ground up" article that had no assistance from an earlier article deleted less than 30 minutes before?<br /><br />key_people = [[Steven Leer|Steven F. Leer]], Chairman/CEO<br/>[[John Eaves|John W. Eaves]], President/COO |<br /><br />Note the piping technique which shows the middle initial, but does not create an article title with the middle initial. Note the choice of combining the executives' titles with a slash.<br /><br />What is the likelihood that a second author, acting completely independently of the first author, would construct that line the exact same way, from various sources that IN NO WAY construct the information in that exact same way?<br /><br />Puh-lease.</span>
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<span id="number546">#546</span> - <span class="date">01/05/08</span> <span class="time">10:41 AM</span>
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<span id="subject24">Re: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></span>
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<span id="body24">JzG's writing is in need of heavy application of {{fact}} tags, especially when he makes assertions about banned users or so-called "attack sites".<br /><br />I've written a <a href="http://dan.tobias.name/controversies/cyber/wiki2.html" target="_blank">response</a> to one of his <a href="http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/wiki/The_Durova_incident" target="_blank">essays</a> .</span>
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<span id="number578">#578</span> - <span class="date">01/05/08</span> <span class="time">03:35 PM</span>
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<span id="subject25">Re: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=546&#Post546" target="_new" title="[Re: #546]" alt="[Re: #546]" rel="nofollow"> Dtobias</a>]
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<span id="body25"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Dtobias</div><div class="ubbcode-body">JzG's writing is in need of heavy application of {{fact}} tags, especially when he makes assertions about banned users or so-called "attack sites".<br /><br />I've written a <a href="http://dan.tobias.name/controversies/cyber/wiki2.html" target="_blank">response</a> to one of his <a href="http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/wiki/The_Durova_incident" target="_blank">essays</a> . </div></div><br />Sadly, though, yours was written without the benefit of actually having been a member of the mailing lists and in receipt of the original email. So it's factually wrong in several matters. But no doubt you will find other reasons to bring up BADSITES in every thread, just as you do on WP :-)</span>
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<span id="number579">#579</span> - <span class="date">01/05/08</span> <span class="time">03:39 PM</span>
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<span id="body26"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Thekohser</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Martinp23</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can't confidently say he's lying. On the other hand, the versions are fairly similar - that's not to say that he copied from one to the other directly... </div></div><br />What do you think the chances are of this exact string of characters recurring in a "from the ground up" article that had no assistance from an earlier article deleted less than 30 minutes before?<br /><br />key_people = [[Steven Leer|Steven F. Leer]], Chairman/CEO<br/>[[John Eaves|John W. Eaves]], President/COO |<br /><br />Note the piping technique which shows the middle initial, but does not create an article title with the middle initial. Note the choice of combining the executives' titles with a slash.<br /><br />What is the likelihood that a second author, acting completely independently of the first author, would construct that line the exact same way, from various sources that IN NO WAY construct the information in that exact same way?<br /><br />Puh-lease. </div></div><br />Hey, maybe I cut corners and copied the infobox, because it didn't come from you. Truth be told, I can't remember in that much detail, because I'm less obsessed with your attempts to make money out of our volunteer project than you apparently are with getting your own back on us for not letting you.</span>
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<span id="number580">#580</span> - <span class="date">01/05/08</span> <span class="time">03:41 PM</span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=579&#Post579" target="_new" title="[Re: #579]" alt="[Re: #579]" rel="nofollow"> <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></a>]
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<span id="body27"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Thekohser</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Martinp23</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can't confidently say he's lying. On the other hand, the versions are fairly similar - that's not to say that he copied from one to the other directly... </div></div><br />What do you think the chances are of this exact string of characters recurring in a "from the ground up" article that had no assistance from an earlier article deleted less than 30 minutes before?<br /><br />key_people = [[Steven Leer|Steven F. Leer]], Chairman/CEO<br/>[[John Eaves|John W. Eaves]], President/COO |<br /><br />Note the piping technique which shows the middle initial, but does not create an article title with the middle initial. Note the choice of combining the executives' titles with a slash.<br /><br />What is the likelihood that a second author, acting completely independently of the first author, would construct that line the exact same way, from various sources that IN NO WAY construct the information in that exact same way?<br /><br />Puh-lease. </div></div><br />Hey, maybe I cut corners and copied the infobox, because it didn't come from you. Truth be told, I can't remember in that much detail, because I'm less obsessed with your attempts to make money out of our volunteer project than you apparently are with getting your own back on us for not letting you. </div></div><br /><br />You "can't remember in that much detail"? I thought you were quite sure that you created the article from a blank slate, and didn't even look at the old version. And it's rather funny how you're trying to suddenly change the topic.</span>
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<span id="number588">#588</span> - <span class="date">01/05/08</span> <span class="time">03:58 PM</span>
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<span id="subject28">Re: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=578&#Post578" target="_new" title="[Re: #578]" alt="[Re: #578]" rel="nofollow"> <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></a>]
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<span id="body28">All of you. Calm the fuck down. I'm serious, this is not worth the shouting match.<br /><br />Thekohser: When dealing with a website with such a peace-and-love hippie goal like Wikipedia, it's understandable when they respond in furor when someone dares to try to make money off of their communal reference book that is traditionally written by volunteers with a sacred interest in the subject, rather than a commissioned author. It especially doesn't help that some editors don't have the best people skills (I am not thinking of anyone in particular, just people in general). You had the misfortune of experiencing a lethal combination of culture shock and poor communication skills firsthand. That sucks.<br /><br />If you want to succeed, you have to consider what the folk at Wikipedia are saying, after filtering through the emotion and epithets. Your mission may very well augment Wikipedia, but if you're going to settle in a country whose culture you're not accustomed to, it's best you learn the culture. The Jesuits of Quebec and Montreal, for example, managed to convert many Native Americans to Christianity by learning their culture and addressing them in a way they could comprehend. They were more successful than any other missionaries to North America. Likewise, if you present yourself in a way Wikipedians can perceive without taking up arms, you may be considered to be not that terrible.<br /><br /><b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> et. al.: I understand how you are nervous about the prospects of a paid editor like Thekohser and how he could be disruptive to the free-editing culture of Wikipedia. It's a case of culture shock. I don't know what ulterior motives he has, but if he is writing neutral articles on verifiable and notable topics, then there is no issue. His motive for writing articles is irrelevant; I write articles purely so I can take pride in my work and brag about it -- should I be punished for being egotistical? Likewise, should a positive contributor be shot at because his motive is money?<br /><br />Now, what if his articles are indeed junk? Remember, this is Wikipedia. We can fix them up and improve upon what Thekohser started. He can be as functional as the rest of the editing community; we just need to give him a chance.<br /><br />Likewise, Mr. <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Kohs</b>, you need to give the Wikipedia community a chance, and you have to recognize that more than you can edit the website.<br /><br />And there will have to be times when you have to refund your client's money.</span>
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<span id="number590">#590</span> - <span class="date">01/05/08</span> <span class="time">04:07 PM</span>
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<span id="body29"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Messedrocker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All of you. Calm the fuck down. I'm serious, this is not worth the shouting match.</div></div><br /><br />But the Cage Match section just wouldn't be the same without it!</span>
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<span id="number592">#592</span> - <span class="date">01/05/08</span> <span class="time">04:10 PM</span>
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<span id="body30">I forgot to notice that this was the cage match section. Oh well. I reposted the statement elsewhere.</span>
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<span id="number617">#617</span> - <span class="date">01/05/08</span> <span class="time">07:34 PM</span>
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<span id="subject31">Re: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=578&#Post578" target="_new" title="[Re: #578]" alt="[Re: #578]" rel="nofollow"> <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></a>]
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<span id="body31"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></div><div class="ubbcode-body">But no doubt you will find other reasons to bring up BADSITES in every thread, just as you do on WP :-) </div></div><br /><br />If that horse would only <i>stay</i> dead, I wouldn't have to keep beating it, but it has a persistent tendency to keep on galloping right back out of its grave. As recently as in a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration&diff=180878233&oldid=180875636" target="_blank"> statement of a current ArbCom case</a>, the Cliqueistas feel compelled to continue to enforce this non-policy, in this case by editing somebody else's statement (which only arbitrators and clerks are supposed to be able to do, but the Clique always makes its own rules).</span>
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<span id="number627">#627</span> - <span class="date">01/05/08</span> <span class="time">08:28 PM</span>
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<span id="body32"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey, maybe I cut corners and copied the infobox, because it didn't come from you.</div></div><br /><br />Where did the infobox come from?<br /><br /><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></div><div class="ubbcode-body">Truth be told, I can't remember in that much detail, because I'm less obsessed with your attempts to make money out of our volunteer project than you apparently are with getting your own back on us for not letting you. </div></div><br /><br />No money was ever involved with the Arch Coal article. How many red herrings do you have in your arsenal, Guy?</span>
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<span id="number865">#865</span> - <span class="date">01/08/08</span> <span class="time">05:13 PM</span>
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<span id="subject33">Re: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=580&#Post580" target="_new" title="[Re: #580]" alt="[Re: #580]" rel="nofollow"> Amarkov</a>]
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<span id="body33"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Amarkov</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You "can't remember in that much detail"? I thought you were quite sure that you created the article from a blank slate, and didn't even look at the old version. And it's rather funny how you're trying to suddenly change the topic. </div></div><br />Strangely I am less obsessed by the topic of <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Kohs</b>' articles than he is. So no I can't remember in that much detail.</span>
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<span id="number867">#867</span> - <span class="date">01/08/08</span> <span class="time">05:19 PM</span>
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<span id="subject34">Re: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=627&#Post627" target="_new" title="[Re: #627]" alt="[Re: #627]" rel="nofollow"> Thekohser</a>]
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<span id="body34"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Thekohser</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Where did the infobox come from?</div></div><br />I can't remember.<br /><br /><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Thekohser</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No money was ever involved with the Arch Coal article. How many red herrings do you have in your arsenal, Guy? </div></div><br />Irrelevant. Your business model and stated intent meant that you were identified as essentially a spammer. You have also displayed a more or less complete lack of self-criticism - I genuinely believe that you simply cannot understand why anybody in Wikipedia would have a problem with your making profit off the back of the project by selling article-writing services.</span>
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<span id="number938">#938</span> - <span class="date">01/09/08</span> <span class="time">05:05 PM</span>
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<span id="subject35">Re: Paid editing</span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=403&#Post403" target="_new" title="[Re: #403]" alt="[Re: #403]" rel="nofollow"> Michael Snow</a>]
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<span id="body35"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Michael Snow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sorry, but I thought this thread was about the concept of paid editing. It looks to me like <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> and Thekohser need to take their personal dispute to the Cage match - it's long past adding anything of value to the topic. </div></div><br />Greg's dispute is not really with me, it's with Wikipedia and to a lesser extent the idea that articles by banned users evading bans can and should be deleted.</span>
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<span id="number1552">#1552</span> - <span class="date">01/16/08</span> <span class="time">07:36 AM</span>
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<span id="subject36">Re: Paid editing</span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=938&#Post938" target="_new" title="[Re: #938]" alt="[Re: #938]" rel="nofollow"> <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></a>]
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<span id="body36"><b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b>, we will all wait here, in this cage match, for your answer about why you typed:<br /><br /><span style='font-size: 14pt'><b>"The company's operates mines in..."</b></span><br /><br />You probably have a few choices for your response:<br /><br />(1) "Mr. <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Kohs</b>, I will not dignify your accusations with an answer. I will rely on the rest of the <b style="color:black;background-color:#99ff99">WikBack</b> community to ignore any further discussion of this matter."<br /><br />(2) "This was obviously a simple typing mistake. I do have scar tissue on my left hand, you know. I'm still confused how my left hand got over to the apostrophe key on the keyboard, but that's my explanation."<br /><br />(3) "I may have not fully WP:FORGETted Mr. <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Kohs</b>' original article, and somehow the memory of the phrase 'The company's' was still sticking in my head. It was not plagiarism, so much as the powerful impression Mr. <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Kohs</b>' writing left on me."<br /><br />(4) "Okay, so I started my editing with <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Kohs</b>' version, and I started re-arranging words to make it look like my own original thought and research. I know I did this in only 26 minutes, all while participating in the DRV discussion, too. Yes, I know that 15 months later, I went back into the article's history and tried to erase from memory the original source and labor for this article. And, yes, I then lied repeatedly about the situation here on the <b style="color:black;background-color:#99ff99">WikBack</b>. I'm sorry for what I've done. I know it's no excuse, but Mr. <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Kohs</b> has a certain talent for making me do very irrational things, since he pushes all the right buttons, as far as I'm concerned. Please accept my apology."<br /><br />I think that's about it. Four possible responses. I've even done you the favor of numbering them. So, you could just reply with "Number 2 most closely captures my position," and then you'd be done with it. I'm helpful that way.<br /><br />We're all waiting, <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b>.<br /><br />Greg</span>
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<span id="body0"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Thekohser</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thank you, Martin. As always, you're helpful even while criticizing. I agree that the Arch Coal article was improved for the general reader by the inclusion of environmental criticism. I suppose with just about any coal-mining company, that could be the case. </div></div><br /><br />You're ignoring one rather important fact: the current article on Arch Coal was a complete rewrite form the ground up by me, ab initio, from a blank page, without the content imported from your wiki. This was made clear in the deletion review, which endorsed deletion of the COI version: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ADeletion_review%2FLog%2F2006_October_5&diff=80432256&oldid=80379872" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?titl...&oldid=80379872</a><br /><br /><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Thekohser</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> doubted what I said, I do have in mind two paid articles that MyWikiBiz authored that had diligent citation, as well as commentary critiquing the subject of the article. One was for an electronics retailer whose Internet presence had been critiqued by a reliable source, and the other was about a pharmaceutical remedy that had controversial social implications cited by an independent source.</div></div><br /><br />So you say, but you refuse to tell us which they are, so we only have your word for it, and I'm sorry but your word is not a good enough source for evaluation of your own neutrality.<br /><br /><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Thekohser</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, let's get that POLL up and running, shall we?? </div></div><br /><br />You expect a different result from the last poll? Despite the fact that you flatly refuse to cite the examples? I think that's a bit naive.</span>
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<span id="number388">#388</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">05:26 AM</span>
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<span id="subject1">Re: Paid editing</span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=386&#Post386" target="_new" title="[Re: #386]" alt="[Re: #386]" rel="nofollow"> Thekohser</a>]
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<span style="display: none;" id="username388"><b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></span>
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<span id="body1"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Thekohser</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm curious where everyone stands on what has been the most important Wikipedia concern for me over the past two years. That's the phenomenon of paid-for editing. Essentially, I view that there are about 5 different positions that a knowledgeable observer might have. Which do you subscribe to, or have I missed one?</div></div><br /><br />Do not underestimate the extent to which this is utterly unimportant to most people other than you. I know your starting point here is wanting to make money out of editing Wikipedia, which might be problematic given your ban for abusive sockpuppetry, but really for most people, editing for pay is not even a side issue.<br /><br />I'm not going to respond individually to your lettered points partly because they contain subtle bias (i.e. begging the question) and partly because my answer is the same to all of them:<br /><br />Why should unpaid editors have to be watching for the conflicted edits of people being paid to edit? We already have people editing with a clear conflict of interest, my advice to such people is to comment on the talk page and not to edit the article except to correct unambiguous errors of fact. This is what I tell them via OTRS and it's what I tell them on Wikipedia, and I don't see any reason to tell them any different. <br /><br />And there is a <i>big</i> difference between a company employee writing in Wikipedia, and a company setting up to make money by doing something that pretty much the entire Wikipedia community does for nothing. It's anathema to the entire philosophy of a volunteer-run encyclopaedia. Paid editing is what happens in print encyclopaedias, where the expertise of the contributor can be vetted by an editorial board. And frankly I don't see a need: Wikipedia explicitly is not part of your PR campaign. If a firm sees not having a Wikipedia article as a big deal, they are probably not much of a firm. <br /><br />Very often we find that the more determined someone is to be on Wikipedia, the more likely it is that they should not be.</span>
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<span id="number390">#390</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">07:07 AM</span>
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<span id="subject2">Re: Paid editing</span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=388&#Post388" target="_new" title="[Re: #388]" alt="[Re: #388]" rel="nofollow"> <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></a>]
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<span id="body2"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></div><div class="ubbcode-body">Very often we find that the more determined someone is to be on Wikipedia, the more likely it is that they should not be.</div></div><br /><br />I hope that everyone can understand what just happened above. Thanks to an argument that he was losing -- 15 months after the fact -- Guy Chapman <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log/delete&page=Arch_Coal" target="_blank"><b>DELETED from public view</b></a> the <i>original</i> MyWikiBiz-authored (and J.smith-posted) article about Arch Coal, so that he can say "his" rewrite is completely different from the original, and nobody will be able to argue that point, since the transcript of the original is gone!<br /><br />Behavior like this reflects the actions of a child. It's appalling. Talk about conflict of interest! Talk about picking up his ball and running home to Mommie. Indeed, <i>very often we find that the more determined someone is to be on Wikipedia, the more likely it is that they should not be</i>. Perhaps these people should "RETIRE" from Wikipedia... AGAIN.<br /><br />For those who need a cluehammer, I would recommend that JzG's unnecessary and out-of-process oversighting of the Arch Coal pages from prior to October 5, 2006 be restored. Official admonishment of <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> is at the admin community's discretion.<br /><br />If you feel that it is THIS type of childish behavior that is making Wikipedia a more difficult place to build an encyclopedia free of petty, juvenile politics ("<i>my</i> article is better than <i>your</i> article, and I'm going to <i>delete</i> your article because I banned you"), now is the time to voice your concern over JzG's increasingly erratic and selfish behavior.<br /><br />Greg</span>
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<span id="number391">#391</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">07:23 AM</span>
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<span id="subject3">Re: Paid editing</span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=390&#Post390" target="_new" title="[Re: #390]" alt="[Re: #390]" rel="nofollow"> Thekohser</a>]
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<span id="body3">After I see the <b style="color:black;background-color:#99ff99">WikBack</b> community reaction to JzG's on-wiki actions of January 2nd, I will be happy to dismantle most of JzG's above points, one by one. However, I'm not going to waste my time doing that in this forum if the general consensus is that JzG's January 2nd oversight actions are appropriate in some way. I need some assurance that I am carrying on a dialogue with an ethical community.<br /><br />Greg</span>
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<span id="number393">#393</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">08:25 AM</span>
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<span id="subject4">Re: Paid editing</span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=391&#Post391" target="_new" title="[Re: #391]" alt="[Re: #391]" rel="nofollow"> Thekohser</a>]
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<span id="body4">This points to an <a href="http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=15096&view=findpost&p=71763" target="_blank">attempt to show the differences</a> between the original MyWikiBiz article and the one Guy Chapman wrote as a "complete rewrite form (<i>sic</i>) the ground up by me, ab initio, from a blank page".<br /><br />If you're not disgusted by this, you really shouldn't be working on an encyclopedia project.</span>
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<span id="number394">#394</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">09:29 AM</span>
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<span id="subject5">Re: Paid editing</span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=390&#Post390" target="_new" title="[Re: #390]" alt="[Re: #390]" rel="nofollow"> Thekohser</a>]
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<span style="display: none;" id="username394"><b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></span>
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<span id="body5"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Thekohser</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></div><div class="ubbcode-body">Very often we find that the more determined someone is to be on Wikipedia, the more likely it is that they should not be.</div></div><br /><br />I hope that everyone can understand what just happened above. Thanks to an argument that he was losing -- 15 months after the fact -- Guy Chapman <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log/delete&page=Arch_Coal" target="_blank"><b>DELETED from public view</b></a> the <i>original</i> MyWikiBiz-authored (and J.smith-posted) article about Arch Coal, so that he can say "his" rewrite is completely different from the original, and nobody will be able to argue that point, since the transcript of the original is gone!<br /><br />Behavior like this reflects the actions of a child. It's appalling. Talk about conflict of interest! Talk about picking up his ball and running home to Mommie. Indeed, <i>very often we find that the more determined someone is to be on Wikipedia, the more likely it is that they should not be</i>. Perhaps these people should "RETIRE" from Wikipedia... AGAIN.<br /><br />For those who need a cluehammer, I would recommend that JzG's unnecessary and out-of-process oversighting of the Arch Coal pages from prior to October 5, 2006 be restored. Official admonishment of <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> is at the admin community's discretion.<br /><br />If you feel that it is THIS type of childish behavior that is making Wikipedia a more difficult place to build an encyclopedia free of petty, juvenile politics ("<i>my</i> article is better than <i>your</i> article, and I'm going to <i>delete</i> your article because I banned you"), now is the time to voice your concern over JzG's increasingly erratic and selfish behavior.<br /><br />Greg<br /> </div></div><br />That's a complete misrepresentation. The deletion review I cited noted the fact that the article had been rewritten, which it had - I rewrote it from scratch using sources I found. I forgot, at the time, to perform the housekeeping action of removing the version which triggered Jimbo's deletion. Nothing more.<br /><br />There is no reason to have the version Jimbo deleted lying around, because it is not required for GFDL, because the current version started form a brand new article that I wrote from scratch, form sources I found, not using your version at all.<br /><br />Thank you for pointing out that I'd forgotten to do this bit of housekeeping.</span>
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<span id="number398">#398</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">09:43 AM</span>
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<span id="subject6">Re: Paid editing</span>
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<span id="body6"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Thekohser</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></div><div class="ubbcode-body">Very often we find that the more determined someone is to be on Wikipedia, the more likely it is that they should not be.</div></div><br /><br />I hope that everyone can understand what just happened above. Thanks to an argument that he was losing -- 15 months after the fact -- Guy Chapman <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log/delete&page=Arch_Coal" target="_blank"><b>DELETED from public view</b></a> the <i>original</i> MyWikiBiz-authored (and J.smith-posted) article about Arch Coal, so that he can say "his" rewrite is completely different from the original, and nobody will be able to argue that point, since the transcript of the original is gone!<br /><br />Behavior like this reflects the actions of a child. It's appalling. Talk about conflict of interest! Talk about picking up his ball and running home to Mommie. Indeed, <i>very often we find that the more determined someone is to be on Wikipedia, the more likely it is that they should not be</i>. Perhaps these people should "RETIRE" from Wikipedia... AGAIN.<br /><br />For those who need a cluehammer, I would recommend that JzG's unnecessary and out-of-process oversighting of the Arch Coal pages from prior to October 5, 2006 be restored. Official admonishment of <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> is at the admin community's discretion.<br /><br />If you feel that it is THIS type of childish behavior that is making Wikipedia a more difficult place to build an encyclopedia free of petty, juvenile politics ("<i>my</i> article is better than <i>your</i> article, and I'm going to <i>delete</i> your article because I banned you"), now is the time to voice your concern over JzG's increasingly erratic and selfish behavior.<br /><br />Greg<br /> </div></div><br />As I said above, no, I did not do this so I could say my rewrite is completely different from the original - it <i>was</i> completely rewritten from the ground up from original sources.<br /><br />I have taken the original deleted revision, in case any non-admin <i>does</i> want to compare them, and placed it at <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:MyWikiBiz/Arch_Coal&oldid=182123799" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:MyWikiBiz/Arch_Coal&oldid=182123799</a>. <br /><br />But it changes nothing: Jimbo deleted the article, I rewrote it from scratch, and the Jimbo deleted version is not required for GFDL and should have been re-deleted, because that was the conclusion of the deletion review.<br /><br />Here's the rewrite: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Arch_Coal&oldid=79689733" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Arch_Coal&oldid=79689733</a>. You'll note it cites three sources, and I don't think any of them were cited in your version.<br /><br />As to "an argument he was losing" - well, we'll have to wait and see. Banned users have no particular say on Wikipedia, so it's not as if the argument is important, but actually the way to win your argument would be to point out the articles you say were not spotted, because those are the real test cases - this was deleted, after all, and deletion endorsed due to a rewrite.</span>
<span class="edited-wording"><br /><br /><span class="small"><em>Edited by <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> (<span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">09:48 AM</span>)<br />Edit Reason: linky</em></span></span>
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<span id="number401">#401</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">10:44 AM</span>
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<span id="subject7">Re: Paid editing</span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=398&#Post398" target="_new" title="[Re: #398]" alt="[Re: #398]" rel="nofollow"> <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></a>]
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<span id="body7"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></div><div class="ubbcode-body">As I said above, no, I did not do this so I could say my rewrite is completely different from the original - it <i>was</i> completely rewritten from the ground up from original sources. </div></div><br /><br />{{fact}}?<br /><br />Guy, you're <b>embarrassing</b> yourself now, in your attempt to be judge and jury of your own COI. You had it in for MyWikiBiz from August 2006, that is without question. Jimbo deleted a MyWikiBiz/J.smith article on October 5, 2006. YOU just "happen" to be the one who supposedly re-writes it from (the word is "from", not <i>form</i>) the ground up, and YOU just happen to be the one who determines that the WP:DRV concluded that the original must be deleted, and then -- 15 months later -- YOU actually delete the original? <br /><br />See the <a href="http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=15096&view=findpost&p=71763" target="_blank">comparison</a> of the two articles on Wikipedia Review. They are <b>very</b> similar.<br /><br />Now I'm going to really <b>embarrass</b> you, <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b>, but you undoubtedly asked for it. According to <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Arch_Coal&limit=500&action=history" target="_blank">the Arch Coal article history</a> which you haven't yet oversighted to cover your tracks, the article was in "blank" form and last touched by you at 17:48, 5 October 2006. Then, by some miracle of British productivity, you researched and created <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Arch_Coal&oldid=79689733" target="_blank">this <b>entire article</b> from <i>scratch</i></a> and posted it to Wikipedia at 18:14, 5 October 2006? And even within that time, you were posting dialog <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ADeletion_review%2FLog%2F2006_October_5&diff=80432256&oldid=80379872" target="_blank">to the DRV</a> itself, not <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2006_October_5&diff=prev&oldid=79685134" target="_blank">once</a>, but <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2006_October_5&diff=prev&oldid=79685515" target="_blank">twice</a>!<br /><br />You honestly expect the <b style="color:black;background-color:#99ff99">WikBack</b> community and the Wikipedia community to faithfully believe that you constructed that entire article <i>from scratch</i> without aid of what MyWikiBiz/J.smith had previously done, all while a DRV was ongoing, all while participating in the DRV, all in the course of <b>26 minutes</b>? You're telling us it's just a coincidence of some epic proportion that you found the <b>same</b> history of the company's complex mergers, the <b>same</b> locations of the mines, the <b>same</b> CEO's and President's names (and you even wikilink|piped them <b>EXACTLY the same</b> as MyWikiBiz/J.smith), the <b>same</b> number of employees and year of that estimate, the <b>same</b> link to the NYSE ticker, the <b>same</b> corporate logo image and link to that image, and the <b>same</b> wikilinks for the words "subsidiary" and "sulfur" in an article of that incredible length -- and you managed to concoct this preposterous coincidence all in the course of <b>26 minutes</b>!?<br /><br />This may be the funniest fabrication ever devised by someone trying to hide a simple error in judgment.<br /><br />If I have made a "personal attack" by calling out the facts about this matter, then moderators should ban me from this message board. Considering the above assassination of my character and this mockery of respect for authorship on Wikipedia under the GFDL, I would hope that someone ELSE ought to be banned from this message board, though. <br /><br />Is anyone else READING this? Is anyone else disgusted by the arrogant description of these preposterous coincidences inflicted by the King of Conflict of Interest?<br /><br />Greg</span>
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<span id="number403">#403</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">12:12 PM</span>
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<span id="subject8">Re: Paid editing</span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=401&#Post401" target="_new" title="[Re: #401]" alt="[Re: #401]" rel="nofollow"> Thekohser</a>]
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<span id="body8">I'm sorry, but I thought this thread was about the concept of paid editing. It looks to me like <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> and Thekohser need to take their personal dispute to the Cage match - it's long past adding anything of value to the topic.</span>
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<span id="number404">#404</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">12:18 PM</span>
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<span id="subject9">Re: Paid editing</span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=401&#Post401" target="_new" title="[Re: #401]" alt="[Re: #401]" rel="nofollow"> Thekohser</a>]
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<span id="body9">(Looks like I got an "edit conflict" with Michael Snow here - I more or less echo what he says too. Though I guess you wouldn't call it an "edit" conflict on a forum <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/default/smile.gif" alt="\:\)" title="smile" height="15" width="15" /> )<br /><br />Everyone, please avoid the <i>ad hominem</i> attacks (asking this as a host here). This discussion started out quite interesting and fruitful, and paid editing is a difficult issue that could really use more such discussion.</span>
<span class="edited-wording"><br /><br /><span class="small"><em>Edited by Krimpet (<span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">12:23 PM</span>)</em></span></span>
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<span id="number407">#407</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">12:26 PM</span>
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<span id="subject10">Re: Paid editing</span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=404&#Post404" target="_new" title="[Re: #404]" alt="[Re: #404]" rel="nofollow"> Krimpet</a>]
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<span id="body10">Another edit conflict - I've moved this last page of discussion to the cage match so that hopefully Guy and Greg can try to work out their differences while the other thread can contrinue in relative calm <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/default/smile.gif" alt="\:\)" title="smile" height="15" width="15" /><br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />Martin.</span>
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<span id="number410">#410</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">12:47 PM</span>
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<span id="subject11">Re: Paid editing</span>
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<span id="body11"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Krimpet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Everyone, please avoid the <i>ad hominem</i> attacks (asking this as a host here). This discussion started out quite interesting and fruitful, and paid editing is a difficult issue that could really use more such discussion. </div></div><br /><br />I'm sorry, I thought that <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> has "closed" the discussion on paid editing, since a "supermajority" has opposed the concept back in October 2006? There was also no need for a "second" poll on this, since the results of the "first" poll (wherever THAT may freakin' be) were so decisive. We were also told that nobody cares about paid editing, since the MSNBC poll garnered only 1,000+ votes.<br /><br />I'm sorry to be so snarky, but it's just pitiful.<br /><br />By all means, keep discussing the issue of paid editing. Or, has it concluded as I described above?<br /><br />Greg</span>
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<span id="number415">#415</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">01:05 PM</span>
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<span id="subject12">Re: Paid editing</span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=410&#Post410" target="_new" title="[Re: #410]" alt="[Re: #410]" rel="nofollow"> Thekohser</a>]
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<span id="body12"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Thekohser</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Krimpet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Everyone, please avoid the <i>ad hominem</i> attacks (asking this as a host here). This discussion started out quite interesting and fruitful, and paid editing is a difficult issue that could really use more such discussion. </div></div><br /><br />I'm sorry, I thought that <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> has "closed" the discussion on paid editing, since a "supermajority" has opposed the concept back in October 2006? There was also no need for a "second" poll on this, since the results of the "first" poll (wherever THAT may freakin' be) were so decisive. We were also told that nobody cares about paid editing, since the MSNBC poll garnered only 1,000+ votes.<br /><br />I'm sorry to be so snarky, but it's just pitiful.<br /><br />By all means, keep discussing the issue of paid editing. Or, has it concluded as I described above?<br /><br />Greg </div></div><br /><br /><b>Moderator's note:</b><br /><br />There are precisely four people who can declare a discussion closed, here. When that happens, an icon of a padlock will appear next to this thread. Code is law, after all. Please don't make this happen when we have avoided it thus far; I find the topic interesting, in a non-urgent sort of way, and I would hate to have to lock it down.<br /><br />Mr. Chapman, please stop baiting Mr. <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Kohs</b>.<br /><br />Mr. <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Kohs</b>, please stop letting Mr. Chapman bait you.</span>
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<span id="number416">#416</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">01:37 PM</span>
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<span id="subject13">Re: Paid editing</span>
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<span style="display: none;" id="username416"><b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></span>
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<span id="body13"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Martinp23</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Another edit conflict - I've moved this last page of discussion to the cage match so that hopefully Guy and Greg can try to work out their differences while the other thread can contrinue in relative calm <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/default/smile.gif" alt="\:\)" title="smile" height="15" width="15" /></div></div><br />It's unlikely that Gregory and I will resolve our differences, as he believes he should be free to make money form Wikipedia and I should be hounded out of the project, whereas I believe that I should be free to edit Wikipedia and he should stay banned, not least because of his attempts to bring the Wikimedia Foundation down by complaints to state government and, he claims, the IRS. That neither of these has apparently been taken seriously is not, in my view, an excuse.</span>
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<span id="number417">#417</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">01:38 PM</span>
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<span id="subject14">Re: Paid editing</span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=410&#Post410" target="_new" title="[Re: #410]" alt="[Re: #410]" rel="nofollow"> Thekohser</a>]
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<span id="body14"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Thekohser</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Krimpet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Everyone, please avoid the <i>ad hominem</i> attacks (asking this as a host here). This discussion started out quite interesting and fruitful, and paid editing is a difficult issue that could really use more such discussion. </div></div><br /><br />I'm sorry, I thought that <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> has "closed" the discussion on paid editing, since a "supermajority" has opposed the concept back in October 2006? There was also no need for a "second" poll on this, since the results of the "first" poll (wherever THAT may freakin' be) were so decisive. We were also told that nobody cares about paid editing, since the MSNBC poll garnered only 1,000+ votes.<br /><br />I'm sorry to be so snarky, but it's just pitiful.<br /><br />By all means, keep discussing the issue of paid editing. Or, has it concluded as I described above?<br /><br />Greg </div></div><br /><br />Yes, <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> and others have expressed their opposition to paid editing - but that doesn't equal consensus, and a significant number of respectable folks have things to say too, as evidenced by the beginning of the discussion, and as an independent forum we encourage discussion on this. But it really needs to remain civil and constructive to avoid degenerating into a tit-for-tat battle, which so many heated issues on Wikipedia seem to eventually become.</span>
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<span id="number431">#431</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">02:40 PM</span>
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<span id="subject15">Re: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></span>
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<span id="body15">Speaking hypothetically, would the restoration of the two edits which <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> deleted have a net effect of increasing or decreasing drama? (just a note due to confusion wrt the name of this thread compared to that in the "Regarding wikipedia" forum - this is in the cage match for (heated) discussion primarily between <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> and Thekosher).<br /><br />Martin</span>
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<span id="number433">#433</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">02:42 PM</span>
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<span id="subject16">Re: Paid editing</span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=416&#Post416" target="_new" title="[Re: #416]" alt="[Re: #416]" rel="nofollow"> <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></a>]
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<span id="body16">I have no continued interest in making money from (or form) Wikipedia. In fact, I have recently negotiated a deal to completely re-design and re-brand the MyWikiBiz.com website to be an independent, semantic wiki directory, suitable for any person or enterprise that has been deemed "non-notable" for Wikipedia. Users may protect their pages from vandalism, and they may take 100% of the ad revenues or product sales generated by their pages on MyWikiBiz.com.<br /><br />It is thus inaccurate to say that I have an interest in making money via Wikipedia. This argument is one of <i>principle</i>, Guy. Please try to respect that and don't poison the well with misinformation about my ambitions. The business of getting paid to create GFDL content for consideration by Wikipedians shut down in October 2006. It is now January 2008.</span>
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<span id="number434">#434</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">02:45 PM</span>
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<span id="subject17">Re: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></span>
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<span id="body17"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Martinp23</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Speaking hypothetically, would the restoration of the two edits which <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> deleted have a net effect of increasing or decreasing drama? (just a note due to confusion wrt the name of this thread compared to that in the "Regarding wikipedia" forum - this is in the cage match for (heated) discussion primarily between <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> and Thekosher).<br /><br />Martin </div></div><br />Speaking literally, for myself, that would have the net effect of honoring the GFDL license, which is how I agreed to have my creative work licensed, and it would therefore decrease the drama from my corner. I would still hope that <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> would apologize for his error of judgment, but I'm not going to stand on my head for that.<br /><br />How <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> reacts to having such an important alteration of his reverted, only Guy Chapman can speak to the drama-effect of that.<br /><br />Greg</span>
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<span id="number436">#436</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">02:54 PM</span>
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<span id="subject18">Re: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></span>
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<span id="body18">Just to clarify - I'm not taking a side on whether Guy did or did not create the article from scratch... I was just surprised when I saw those two deleted edits earlier today, which seemed to be in such a state for no real reason (from my perspective as a total newcomer to the dispute)</span>
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<span id="number456">#456</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">04:40 PM</span>
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<span id="subject19">Re: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></span>
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<span id="body19"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Speaking hypothetically, would the restoration of the two edits which <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> deleted have a net effect of increasing or decreasing drama?</div></div><br /><br />Speaking literally, for myself, that would have the net effect of honoring the GFDL license, which is how I agreed to have my creative work licensed, and it would therefore decrease the drama from my corner.</div></div><br /><br />Does this really matter to you that much? As someone unfamiliar with this conflict, I find it hard to believe that either of you two really care about this.<br /><br />Greg, have you considered sending a DMCA takedown notice?</span>
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<span id="number485">#485</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">07:38 PM</span>
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<span id="subject20">Re: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></span>
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<span id="body20"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Anthony</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does this really matter to you that much? As someone unfamiliar with this conflict, I find it hard to believe that either of you two really care about this.<br /><br />Greg, have you considered sending a DMCA takedown notice? </div></div><br /><br />This article didn't matter that much to me at all until Jimbo decided to use it to prove some kind of WP:POINT about paid editing, even though the article never had any taint of payment or corporate PR. After Jimbo's actions, I took a deep interest in the article and the issues surrounding it, for a couple of months.<br /><br />Then my interest waned. For another 12 or 13 months it waned.<br /><br />Then for a still-ponderous reason, <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> decided to prove another WP:POINT by violating the article's GFDL origin, and yes, that made me "really care" about this again. The fact that it's anti-paid-editing crusader <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> doing the meddling makes it all the more a conflict of interest and simply an obvious attempt to make trouble where there wasn't an iota of disturbance.<br /><br />"Trollish" behavior like that typically gets regular users blocked. I suppose <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> might get a barnstar for it.<br /><br />Speaking of "really caring" about this -- my amazement is actually growing, now that nearly an entire workday has passed, and nobody has had either the ethical backbone or the courage to face JzG's wrath, and reverted his oversight. That speaks volumes about the ethos of Wikipedia's community managers.<br /><br />Greg</span>
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<span id="number487">#487</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">07:41 PM</span>
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<span id="subject21">Re: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=436&#Post436" target="_new" title="[Re: #436]" alt="[Re: #436]" rel="nofollow"> Martinp23</a>]
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<span id="body21"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Martinp23</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just to clarify - I'm not taking a side on whether Guy did or did not create the article from scratch... I was just surprised when I saw those two deleted edits earlier today, which seemed to be in such a state for no real reason (from my perspective as a total newcomer to the dispute) </div></div><br /><br />Martin, would you please elaborate on your reasoning why you are "not taking a side"? Is there not enough evidence for you to form an opinion? Or, are you saying you're not taking a side, for the best interests of the <b style="color:black;background-color:#99ff99">WikBack</b> community?<br /><br />Greg</span>
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<span id="number494">#494</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">08:27 PM</span>
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<span id="subject22">Re: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=487&#Post487" target="_new" title="[Re: #487]" alt="[Re: #487]" rel="nofollow"> Thekohser</a>]
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<span id="body22"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Thekohser</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><br />Martin, would you please elaborate on your reasoning why you are "not taking a side"? Is there not enough evidence for you to form an opinion? Or, are you saying you're not taking a side, for the best interests of the <b style="color:black;background-color:#99ff99">WikBack</b> community?<br /></div></div><br /><br />Both. Guy has told us that he did it from the ground up, and not having access to his innermost thoughts, I can't confidently say he's lying. On the other hand, the versions are fairly similar - that's not to say that he copied from one to the other directly, changing little parts of it. What he saw of your old version would almost certainly influence his choice of what to write (or at least, would for me), but we really can't say for certain that he copied it directly. So, that's why I'm not sure.<br /><br />I asked the question I did because it would seem to be a damaged control measure to me - and I'd certainly support it. However, there may well be strong reasons against it...</span>
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<span id="number501">#501</span> - <span class="date">01/04/08</span> <span class="time">09:00 PM</span>
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<span id="subject23">Re: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></span>
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<span id="body23"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Martinp23</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can't confidently say he's lying. On the other hand, the versions are fairly similar - that's not to say that he copied from one to the other directly... </div></div><br />What do you think the chances are of this exact string of characters recurring in a "from the ground up" article that had no assistance from an earlier article deleted less than 30 minutes before?<br /><br />key_people = [[Steven Leer|Steven F. Leer]], Chairman/CEO<br/>[[John Eaves|John W. Eaves]], President/COO |<br /><br />Note the piping technique which shows the middle initial, but does not create an article title with the middle initial. Note the choice of combining the executives' titles with a slash.<br /><br />What is the likelihood that a second author, acting completely independently of the first author, would construct that line the exact same way, from various sources that IN NO WAY construct the information in that exact same way?<br /><br />Puh-lease.</span>
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<span id="number546">#546</span> - <span class="date">01/05/08</span> <span class="time">10:41 AM</span>
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<span id="subject24">Re: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></span>
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<span id="body24">JzG's writing is in need of heavy application of {{fact}} tags, especially when he makes assertions about banned users or so-called "attack sites".<br /><br />I've written a <a href="http://dan.tobias.name/controversies/cyber/wiki2.html" target="_blank">response</a> to one of his <a href="http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/wiki/The_Durova_incident" target="_blank">essays</a> .</span>
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<span id="number578">#578</span> - <span class="date">01/05/08</span> <span class="time">03:35 PM</span>
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<span id="subject25">Re: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=546&#Post546" target="_new" title="[Re: #546]" alt="[Re: #546]" rel="nofollow"> Dtobias</a>]
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<span id="body25"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Dtobias</div><div class="ubbcode-body">JzG's writing is in need of heavy application of {{fact}} tags, especially when he makes assertions about banned users or so-called "attack sites".<br /><br />I've written a <a href="http://dan.tobias.name/controversies/cyber/wiki2.html" target="_blank">response</a> to one of his <a href="http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/wiki/The_Durova_incident" target="_blank">essays</a> . </div></div><br />Sadly, though, yours was written without the benefit of actually having been a member of the mailing lists and in receipt of the original email. So it's factually wrong in several matters. But no doubt you will find other reasons to bring up BADSITES in every thread, just as you do on WP :-)</span>
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<span id="number579">#579</span> - <span class="date">01/05/08</span> <span class="time">03:39 PM</span>
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<span id="body26"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Thekohser</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Martinp23</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can't confidently say he's lying. On the other hand, the versions are fairly similar - that's not to say that he copied from one to the other directly... </div></div><br />What do you think the chances are of this exact string of characters recurring in a "from the ground up" article that had no assistance from an earlier article deleted less than 30 minutes before?<br /><br />key_people = [[Steven Leer|Steven F. Leer]], Chairman/CEO<br/>[[John Eaves|John W. Eaves]], President/COO |<br /><br />Note the piping technique which shows the middle initial, but does not create an article title with the middle initial. Note the choice of combining the executives' titles with a slash.<br /><br />What is the likelihood that a second author, acting completely independently of the first author, would construct that line the exact same way, from various sources that IN NO WAY construct the information in that exact same way?<br /><br />Puh-lease. </div></div><br />Hey, maybe I cut corners and copied the infobox, because it didn't come from you. Truth be told, I can't remember in that much detail, because I'm less obsessed with your attempts to make money out of our volunteer project than you apparently are with getting your own back on us for not letting you.</span>
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<span id="number580">#580</span> - <span class="date">01/05/08</span> <span class="time">03:41 PM</span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=579&#Post579" target="_new" title="[Re: #579]" alt="[Re: #579]" rel="nofollow"> <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></a>]
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<span id="body27"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Thekohser</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Martinp23</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can't confidently say he's lying. On the other hand, the versions are fairly similar - that's not to say that he copied from one to the other directly... </div></div><br />What do you think the chances are of this exact string of characters recurring in a "from the ground up" article that had no assistance from an earlier article deleted less than 30 minutes before?<br /><br />key_people = [[Steven Leer|Steven F. Leer]], Chairman/CEO<br/>[[John Eaves|John W. Eaves]], President/COO |<br /><br />Note the piping technique which shows the middle initial, but does not create an article title with the middle initial. Note the choice of combining the executives' titles with a slash.<br /><br />What is the likelihood that a second author, acting completely independently of the first author, would construct that line the exact same way, from various sources that IN NO WAY construct the information in that exact same way?<br /><br />Puh-lease. </div></div><br />Hey, maybe I cut corners and copied the infobox, because it didn't come from you. Truth be told, I can't remember in that much detail, because I'm less obsessed with your attempts to make money out of our volunteer project than you apparently are with getting your own back on us for not letting you. </div></div><br /><br />You "can't remember in that much detail"? I thought you were quite sure that you created the article from a blank slate, and didn't even look at the old version. And it's rather funny how you're trying to suddenly change the topic.</span>
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<span id="number588">#588</span> - <span class="date">01/05/08</span> <span class="time">03:58 PM</span>
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<span id="subject28">Re: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=578&#Post578" target="_new" title="[Re: #578]" alt="[Re: #578]" rel="nofollow"> <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></a>]
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<span id="body28">All of you. Calm the fuck down. I'm serious, this is not worth the shouting match.<br /><br />Thekohser: When dealing with a website with such a peace-and-love hippie goal like Wikipedia, it's understandable when they respond in furor when someone dares to try to make money off of their communal reference book that is traditionally written by volunteers with a sacred interest in the subject, rather than a commissioned author. It especially doesn't help that some editors don't have the best people skills (I am not thinking of anyone in particular, just people in general). You had the misfortune of experiencing a lethal combination of culture shock and poor communication skills firsthand. That sucks.<br /><br />If you want to succeed, you have to consider what the folk at Wikipedia are saying, after filtering through the emotion and epithets. Your mission may very well augment Wikipedia, but if you're going to settle in a country whose culture you're not accustomed to, it's best you learn the culture. The Jesuits of Quebec and Montreal, for example, managed to convert many Native Americans to Christianity by learning their culture and addressing them in a way they could comprehend. They were more successful than any other missionaries to North America. Likewise, if you present yourself in a way Wikipedians can perceive without taking up arms, you may be considered to be not that terrible.<br /><br /><b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> et. al.: I understand how you are nervous about the prospects of a paid editor like Thekohser and how he could be disruptive to the free-editing culture of Wikipedia. It's a case of culture shock. I don't know what ulterior motives he has, but if he is writing neutral articles on verifiable and notable topics, then there is no issue. His motive for writing articles is irrelevant; I write articles purely so I can take pride in my work and brag about it -- should I be punished for being egotistical? Likewise, should a positive contributor be shot at because his motive is money?<br /><br />Now, what if his articles are indeed junk? Remember, this is Wikipedia. We can fix them up and improve upon what Thekohser started. He can be as functional as the rest of the editing community; we just need to give him a chance.<br /><br />Likewise, Mr. <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Kohs</b>, you need to give the Wikipedia community a chance, and you have to recognize that more than you can edit the website.<br /><br />And there will have to be times when you have to refund your client's money.</span>
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<span id="number590">#590</span> - <span class="date">01/05/08</span> <span class="time">04:07 PM</span>
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<span id="body29"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Messedrocker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All of you. Calm the fuck down. I'm serious, this is not worth the shouting match.</div></div><br /><br />But the Cage Match section just wouldn't be the same without it!</span>
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<span id="number592">#592</span> - <span class="date">01/05/08</span> <span class="time">04:10 PM</span>
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<span id="body30">I forgot to notice that this was the cage match section. Oh well. I reposted the statement elsewhere.</span>
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<span id="number617">#617</span> - <span class="date">01/05/08</span> <span class="time">07:34 PM</span>
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<span id="subject31">Re: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=578&#Post578" target="_new" title="[Re: #578]" alt="[Re: #578]" rel="nofollow"> <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></a>]
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<span id="body31"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></div><div class="ubbcode-body">But no doubt you will find other reasons to bring up BADSITES in every thread, just as you do on WP :-) </div></div><br /><br />If that horse would only <i>stay</i> dead, I wouldn't have to keep beating it, but it has a persistent tendency to keep on galloping right back out of its grave. As recently as in a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration&diff=180878233&oldid=180875636" target="_blank"> statement of a current ArbCom case</a>, the Cliqueistas feel compelled to continue to enforce this non-policy, in this case by editing somebody else's statement (which only arbitrators and clerks are supposed to be able to do, but the Clique always makes its own rules).</span>
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<span id="number627">#627</span> - <span class="date">01/05/08</span> <span class="time">08:28 PM</span>
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<span id="body32"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey, maybe I cut corners and copied the infobox, because it didn't come from you.</div></div><br /><br />Where did the infobox come from?<br /><br /><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></div><div class="ubbcode-body">Truth be told, I can't remember in that much detail, because I'm less obsessed with your attempts to make money out of our volunteer project than you apparently are with getting your own back on us for not letting you. </div></div><br /><br />No money was ever involved with the Arch Coal article. How many red herrings do you have in your arsenal, Guy?</span>
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<span id="number865">#865</span> - <span class="date">01/08/08</span> <span class="time">05:13 PM</span>
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<span id="subject33">Re: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=580&#Post580" target="_new" title="[Re: #580]" alt="[Re: #580]" rel="nofollow"> Amarkov</a>]
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<span id="body33"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Amarkov</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You "can't remember in that much detail"? I thought you were quite sure that you created the article from a blank slate, and didn't even look at the old version. And it's rather funny how you're trying to suddenly change the topic. </div></div><br />Strangely I am less obsessed by the topic of <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Kohs</b>' articles than he is. So no I can't remember in that much detail.</span>
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<span id="number867">#867</span> - <span class="date">01/08/08</span> <span class="time">05:19 PM</span>
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<span id="subject34">Re: <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=627&#Post627" target="_new" title="[Re: #627]" alt="[Re: #627]" rel="nofollow"> Thekohser</a>]
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<span id="body34"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Thekohser</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Where did the infobox come from?</div></div><br />I can't remember.<br /><br /><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Thekohser</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No money was ever involved with the Arch Coal article. How many red herrings do you have in your arsenal, Guy? </div></div><br />Irrelevant. Your business model and stated intent meant that you were identified as essentially a spammer. You have also displayed a more or less complete lack of self-criticism - I genuinely believe that you simply cannot understand why anybody in Wikipedia would have a problem with your making profit off the back of the project by selling article-writing services.</span>
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<span id="number938">#938</span> - <span class="date">01/09/08</span> <span class="time">05:05 PM</span>
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<span id="subject35">Re: Paid editing</span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=403&#Post403" target="_new" title="[Re: #403]" alt="[Re: #403]" rel="nofollow"> Michael Snow</a>]
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<span id="body35"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header"> Originally Posted By: Michael Snow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sorry, but I thought this thread was about the concept of paid editing. It looks to me like <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b> and Thekohser need to take their personal dispute to the Cage match - it's long past adding anything of value to the topic. </div></div><br />Greg's dispute is not really with me, it's with Wikipedia and to a lesser extent the idea that articles by banned users evading bans can and should be deleted.</span>
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<span id="number1552">#1552</span> - <span class="date">01/16/08</span> <span class="time">07:36 AM</span>
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<span id="subject36">Re: Paid editing</span>
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[Re: <a href="/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=938&#Post938" target="_new" title="[Re: #938]" alt="[Re: #938]" rel="nofollow"> <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b></a>]
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<span id="body36"><b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b>, we will all wait here, in this cage match, for your answer about why you typed:<br /><br /><span style='font-size: 14pt'><b>"The company's operates mines in..."</b></span><br /><br />You probably have a few choices for your response:<br /><br />(1) "Mr. <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Kohs</b>, I will not dignify your accusations with an answer. I will rely on the rest of the <b style="color:black;background-color:#99ff99">WikBack</b> community to ignore any further discussion of this matter."<br /><br />(2) "This was obviously a simple typing mistake. I do have scar tissue on my left hand, you know. I'm still confused how my left hand got over to the apostrophe key on the keyboard, but that's my explanation."<br /><br />(3) "I may have not fully WP:FORGETted Mr. <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Kohs</b>' original article, and somehow the memory of the phrase 'The company's' was still sticking in my head. It was not plagiarism, so much as the powerful impression Mr. <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Kohs</b>' writing left on me."<br /><br />(4) "Okay, so I started my editing with <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Kohs</b>' version, and I started re-arranging words to make it look like my own original thought and research. I know I did this in only 26 minutes, all while participating in the DRV discussion, too. Yes, I know that 15 months later, I went back into the article's history and tried to erase from memory the original source and labor for this article. And, yes, I then lied repeatedly about the situation here on the <b style="color:black;background-color:#99ff99">WikBack</b>. I'm sorry for what I've done. I know it's no excuse, but Mr. <b style="color:black;background-color:#ffff66">Kohs</b> has a certain talent for making me do very irrational things, since he pushes all the right buttons, as far as I'm concerned. Please accept my apology."<br /><br />I think that's about it. Four possible responses. I've even done you the favor of numbering them. So, you could just reply with "Number 2 most closely captures my position," and then you'd be done with it. I'm helpful that way.<br /><br />We're all waiting, <b style="color:black;background-color:#ff9999">JzG</b>.<br /><br />Greg</span>
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