User talk:Peter Z.

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Thanks-Peter Z

Wikipedia’s Communist Propaganda Articles!

Wikipedia’s article on Dictator Josip Broz Tito is mostly Communist propaganda of the now defunct Communist Party of the former Yugoslavia. As it turns out Jimmy Wales has provided a perfect vehicle for propaganda of this type. The article is written by Editors from Croatia and supported by other Editors who have Communist leanings. It is written in a totally non-encyclopedic fashion and does not represent contemporary views. After the fall of the Berlin Wall and the collapse of the former Yugoslavia, factual evidence has emerged that Josip Broz and his regime was responsible for executing mass murders, arrests and torture. The worst of these events was the notorious Bleiburg [1]and Foibe massacres.

The usage of Wikipedia as a tool for promoting this type of propaganda is second only to Google itself. It is quite possible that this came about due to the fact that other editors and Admin are simply uneducated in these matters. This exposes a major flaw in Wikipedia which is that “a group of editors can learn to work the system so they can promote their own point of view, so that the article will become a stated Wiki fact, and itself a piece of history".

Josip Broz a Croatian born in Austro-Hungarian Empire, now Croatia was the Commander of all Partisans and Communists during WWII. He then later became Yugoslavia's political leader and was the main decision maker in military and political matters. During the Cold War he was portrayed to the people of Yugoslavia and to the West as a hero. He was considered to be by many, one of the prominent Eastern European Balkan Dictators of the Cold War era. After World War Two, Tito and his comrades set up KGB/NKVD style police units (UDBA & OZNA) and unleashed terror in the former Yugoslavia on a grand scale. One only has to mention Goli Otok, a notorious prison on the Croatian coast (former Yugoslavia’s Evil Island-Gulag). The terror campaign lasted for about twenty years until the regime introduced reforms in the 1960's. The article doesn't even mention that Josip Broz's and his fellow communist were committing economic suicide in the 1960's and 70's.

Is Wikipedia taking on a darker tone? Where are the ethical and moral issues involved in creating a feel good article about a man who played a major role in these historicial events? How many more articles are being written within Wikipedia that are just the point of view of its Editors (political, in this case). This is not encyclopedic work, pure and simple.

Is this type of phenomenon happening with other articles. Quite possible!

References With Contemporary Views:

Factual statements on economic realities of Josip Broz and his fellow Communists:

  • Encyclopaedia Britannica - "At his death, the state treasury was empty"
  • BBC UK/History by Tim Judah.- "The economy was built on the shaky foundations of massive western loans."
  • Ivo Goldstein: 'Croatia A History', a Mc Gill Queen’s University Press Publication.

"People could obtain so much free or for less than the market price (e.g. apartments) that they could be obtain without work."

Written by Ivo Goldstein: 'Croatia A History'.

Note: Ivo Goldstein is a Professor at the University of Zagreb & former Director of the Institute for Croatian History of the University of Zagreb. Zagreb is the capital city of Croatia. The above clearly states the failure in the economic management of Josip Broz and his fellow Communists of the former of Yugoslavia.

The University of Zagreb [2] [3] (1669) is the oldest and biggest university in South-Eastern Europe. The university has 29 faculties, three art academies and the Centre for Croatian Studies. With its comprehensive programmes and over 50,000 full-time undergraduate and postgraduate students. The University is the strongest teaching institution in Croatia. It offers a wide range of academic degree courses leading to Bachelor's, Master's and Doctoral degrees in the following fields: Arts, Biomedicine, Biotechnology, Engineering, Humanities, Natural and Social Sciences. it is also a strongly research-oriented institution, contributing with over 50 percent to the total research output of Croatia.

Testimony-Eye Witness:

  • Mitja Ribicic - Internal Security of Former Yugoslavia: BBC 4 [4]
  • Janez Stanovnik - Slovenia Politician & Economist/Former Yugoslav Partizan Commander [5]
  • Simo Dubajic- Former Yugoslav Partizan Commander - "Life Sin and Remorse" [6] ABC News [7]
  • Josip Zoretic - Political prisoner of the former Yugoslavia's most notorious prison, Goli Otok, [8]
  • Alfred Pal - Political prisoner of the former Yugoslavia's most notorious prison, Goli Otok

Addtional:

  • New York Times: [9] Evolution in Europe; Piles of Bones in Yugoslavia Point to Partisan Massacres.
  • BBC News: [10] Italy-Croatia WWII Massacre Spat
  • Mail Online Word News: [11] Gassed to Death: 300 victims of Yugoslavia's Communist Regime Found in Mass Grave
  • Bernard Meares: [12] The Foiba Story
  • Commission On Concealed Mass Graves in Slovenia [13]
  • Croatian Government: [14] Deputy PM and with Representatives of the Croatian society of Political Prisoners, Victims of Communism
  • Croatia's Index Net: [15]Victims of Communist Regimes get Monument in Vodice
  • Croatia's Javno: [16] Mass Grave Massacre Ordered By Josip Broz Tito
  • Croatia's Moje Vjest: [17] On the Island Daksa Exhumed 48 Victims of Communism
  • Croatian Center for Research of Crimes of Communism [18]

Hi

Hi - I have reorganised your article somewhat by placing a parent article in mainspace (click the link for 'parent article'), which will contain links to all the bad historyarticles in Wikipedia. I have moved and edited material in your article and placed it in the parent article. The child article will then be expressly about the former Yugoslavia and its history, or rather, about the treatment in the Wikipedia articles compared to the modern independent scholarly view. I have looked at some of the Wikipedia articles and you seem to have stumbled upon a real can of worms. Well done. I have edited the article to remove some of the strident turns of phrase you have used - to make a really strong and forceful case it is necessary to speak quieter, rather than louder. Regards Ockham 04:16, 4 October 2009 (PDT)

PS See my links about Bleiburg [19] - the edits by 'Direktor' are laughable. Ockham 04:43, 4 October 2009 (PDT)


Wikipedia & Political Agendas

I would like to expand the parent article with how the political spin is done on Wiki (which I'm going to add later). This could apply to all articles (you have already started on something similar, this is-great).

Also the way Wiki is being run from within. Is it becoming more like George Orwell's "1984 & Animal Farm" (with every passing day)? That is if you agree with this.

Wiki's future and how this is going to affect information (political info & other) on the Internet (& society). Does it need to have a moral obligation (Yes) ?

Wiki's editorial style of work ([20]-scroll down to Balkanic business/Dalmatia not exactly Croatia) is this the way to build an encyclopedia?

The Four Corners might not be suitable for the article? Peter Z. 19:22, 6 October 2009 (PDT)

Hi this is good - see if you can edit the talk pages of the parent article. If not, leave something in my talk directory and I will edit it in. Do you not belong to Wikikpedia Review? That is the place where all the dirt is dished, these days. There is a major scandal going on at the moment. Ockham 11:56, 8 October 2009 (PDT)
Hm mm, there seems to be a lot more of dirt being dished out than I realized. Thanks for that! Peter Z. 19:49, 9 October 2009 (PDT)


Wiki Balkan Talk Page Drama!!!:

Information on www.spiritus-temporis.com

War crimes Under Tito (Commanded all partisans and Communists)

"The Bleiburg massacre occurred near to the end of World War II, during May 1945. It is named after the village of Bleiburg on the Austrian-Slovenian border, near where the massacre began. It involved mass murder of Croatian soldiers and civilians who were fleeing from the defeated Independent State of Croatia, a puppet state of the Nazi regime in Germany. The atrocities were a reprisal against the real or alleged members or collaborators of the fascist regime, by the communist Yugoslav partisan army, presumably with the full knowledge of their supreme commander Josip Broz Tito, who was himself half-Croatian.

Although a still undefined number of Croatian soldiers died during a series of battles and skirmishes, it is generally accepted that the vast portion of violent deaths were the result of executions that lasted at least two weeks after the cessation of hostilities. The victims were Croatian soldiers and civilians, executed without trial as an act of vengeance for the crimes committed by the Ustasi regime in Croatian-controlled territories during World War II — frequently in overtly gruesome manner (mass rape and subsequent killing by stoning of women; beheading of Croatian disarmed soldiers). Murder continued in nearby Slovenia, and it is hard to estimate the number of victims in Bleiburg field, compared to those later found in the trenches in the Maribor area and other numerous pits in Slovenia. Many captives were sent on a death march further into Yugoslav territory.

Croatian political emigration, as well as other sources related to the Cossacks, had published numerous testimonies on the atrocities and British involvement in the affair (interestingly enough, British archives on the Operation Keelhaul tragedy are still sealed), but their publications have received little attention since communist Yugoslavia was the West's protege and the buffer-zone to the Soviets in the post-war period."

Now how can the leadership of the partisans not be responsible for these events? May be they just had a bad day at one of there Communists Party meetings. Sir Floyd (talk) 04:20, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, poor Nazis and fascists. After they've brutally murdered 2 million Yugoslavs in 4 years the partisan's should've simply pardoned them for misbehaving. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 11:37, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
The key word in your post being "presumably". :) Find yourself another one of your crappy "forums" to talk about your presumptions. Just forget about this, Luigi/Brunodam, you're not annoying anyone - you're just turning out amusing. I think I'll file a checkuser in an hour or so, you'd better believe it when I say I'll delete everything you wrote if you're a sock. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 15:49, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Whitewashing? As I understand it, Tito was a fairly controversial leader, whose political legacy is still under debate by scholars. What I don't understand is why this article is devoid of any discussion of this scholarly contention. It seems this article is more focused towards listing Tito's awards than presenting any meaningful scholarly analysis of the man. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 19:08, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Note: Ivan Štambuk statement is very interesting. It might be there just for the benefit of the other Editors, who might not know nothing about the historical events of WW2. This happens a lot with the Balkan Editors (something to think about). Peter Z. 00:41, 10 October 2009 (PDT)

Wiki's Encyclopedic Editors Style of Communication:

  • Hoping that your essays will attract other, real users and start a fake dispute about a non-existing controversy? Nice try... -DIREKTOR 6 August 2009
  • Why in the world would I want to ban you? You're wacky, you're a lot of fun - I like that! :D And since even a brain-dead, brutish Slav communist can see through your sockpuppet "disguise", you're really not a problem.DIREKTOR 6 August 2009
  • Don't you worry Rex old boy, "my menace" is here to stay.It only gets more annoying and "menacing" as the months and years go by... xD gosh I'm evil.-DIREKTOR, 14 August 2009
  • My very well sourced propaganda, Rex, lets not forget. With your sock report I doubt you'll have to endure the um..."suffering" for much longer. ;) -DIREKTOR 14 August 2009

Note: This communication is towards a new Editor who is not a Shockpuppet. Editor DIREKTOR is being considered (by some in Wiki) to be nominated for Admi. Editor DIREKTOR has won "The Barnstar of Diplomacy" Award!

Hi

I can see this is all coming on nicely! I am not always around but feel free to leave a message. Ockham 05:18, 21 October 2009 (PDT)


Notes on References

  • Encyclopaedia Britannica-The article is written post Berlin Wall but it's thin in terms of information, but does not hold back on economic realities "At his death, the state treasury was empty" The Wiki article has Encyclopaedia Britannica under its Notes section as it's source, it might be just cosmetic.
  • BBC UK/History by Tim Judah. The article is also written in the post Berlin Wall world. The Wiki article does not have the BBC as it's source.
Both encyclopaedic articles clearly state:
1. Josip Broz Tito’s failure in adressing ethnic tensions of the former Yugoslavia;
2. Failure in the economic management of the former of Yugoslavia;
  • Ivo Goldstein: 'Croatia A History', a Mc Gill Queen’s University Press Publication.

"People could obtain so much free or for less than the market price (e.g. apartments) that they could be obtain without work."

This is a factual statement, written in Ivo Goldstein: 'Croatia A History'. Josip Broz and his fellow communist were committing economic management suicide. The Wiki article does not have Ivo Goldstein as it's source.

Note: Ivo Goldstein is a Professor at the University of Zagreb

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