User talk:Peter Z./Statement on Wikipedia - Revision history

Peter Z.: fix

2011-04-03T02:58:17Z

fix

Peter Z.: /* Republic of Ragusa */

2011-02-17T08:13:10Z

Republic of Ragusa

Peter Z.: trying to fix ref tag/

2010-10-03T03:29:09Z

trying to fix ref tag/

Peter Z.: tidy

2010-08-12T06:51:14Z

tidy

Peter Z.: transfer

2010-08-12T00:32:15Z

transfer

Peter Z.: transfer

2010-08-11T08:39:36Z

transfer

Peter Z.: Transfer

2010-08-09T08:03:37Z

Transfer

Peter Z.: /* Corzulot Dialect */ spelling

2010-08-07T11:13:51Z

Corzulot Dialect: spelling

Peter Z.: Editing User talk:Peter Z./Statement on Wikipedia

2010-08-07T11:03:37Z

Editing User talk:Peter Z./Statement on Wikipedia

Peter Z.: /* Corzulot Dialect */

2010-08-07T08:50:40Z

Corzulot Dialect

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-== While Visiting the Croatia Coast==
+== While Visiting the Croatian Coast==
 *Preceding unsigned comment added  on Wikipedia's Talk-pages ''by'' ''IP 200.112.16.153'' (28 December 2009)
 *Comment edited by Peter Zuvela.
 * Original text was written by Edwin Veggian: ''Now Your History Belongs To Us''
-While visiting the '''Croatia''' coast (Dalmatia) of the Adriatic Sea, western journalists usually admire her ancient towns. They notice almost everywhere that the regional architecture is “heavily influenced” by a “Venetian” flavour. Years ago, a famous chef posing in front of a XVI century Dalmatian building for a documentary, claimed that its architecture was “quintessentially Croatian“. In the past, certain Western writers were almost convinced (and disgusted) that Croatians “imitated” Venetian and Italian Renaissance architecture in building Dalmatian towns.
+While visiting the [[Croatia|Croatian]] coast (Dalmatia) of the Adriatic Sea, western journalists usually admire her ancient towns. They notice almost everywhere that the regional architecture is “heavily influenced” by a “Venetian” flavour. Years ago, a famous chef posing in front of a XVI century Dalmatian building for a documentary, claimed that its architecture was “quintessentially Croatian“. In the past, certain Western writers were almost convinced (and disgusted) that Croatians “imitated” Venetian and Italian Renaissance architecture in building Dalmatian towns.
 '''Today''', Croatian and international tourist guides are presenting the rich artistic patrimony of Dalmatian coastal towns as essentially “Croatian” or “a reflection of Croatia‘s history“. They almost never mention the autochthonous Italians (about 80.000 in the late 1800s) who lived there since Roman times and who built those architectural jewels before disappearing in modern times. Where did they go? Almost all of them became refugees. They were the victims of the first ethnic cleansing documented in the Balkans.

@@ Line 38: / Line 38: @@
 === Republic of Ragusa ===
-Take for example the history of the '''Republic of Ragusa''', (officially the city is known as Dubrovnik only from 1919 on). Ragusa has been an independent republic governed since the Middle Ages by a Latin/Illyrian families. When it was abolished in 1808 by the Napoleonic army, the small but influential and immensely rich maritime republic left a gigantic archive in which all government documents were written, first in Latin, then in ''Dalmatian'' (an extinct Romance language formerly spoken in the Dalmatia region of Croatia,)<ref>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_language Wikipedia: Dalmatian language]</ref> and finally in modern Italian (the Republic had an office in charge of translations from Slavic vernacular). In the daily business of the government and in diplomacy - Ragusa had over 80 consulates in every major European and Middle Eastern city -, the official language of the small republic was Italian. Furthermore, The Republic of Ragusa is remembered as ”The fifth Maritime Republic of Italy” (with Venice, Pisa, Amalfi and Genoa). For centuries, the well-to-do Ragusan families sent their children to study in the Italian universities. Across the Adriatic sea, Ragusans had daily contacts with Italy. The celebrated libraries of Ragusa were full of Italian editions of every kind, but no books printed in Slavic languages. Today in some Croatian history books the real history of Ragusa disappears almost completely.
+Take for example the history of the '''Republic of Ragusa''', (officially the city is known as Dubrovnik only from 1919 on). Ragusa has been an independent republic governed since the Middle Ages by a Latin/Illyrian families. When it was abolished in 1808 by the Napoleonic army, the small but influential and immensely rich maritime republic left a gigantic archive in which all government documents were written, first in Latin, then in ''Dalmatian'' (an extinct Romance language formerly spoken in the Dalmatia region of Croatia,)<ref>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_language Wikipedia: Dalmatian language]</ref> and finally in modern Italian <ref>[http://books.google.com.au/books?id=eQIEAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA4&dq=Sir+John+Gardner+Wilkinson+Italian+is+spoken+in+all+the+seaports+of+Dalmatia&hl=en&ei=qP6qTLiWJoPRcdXJ8KAE&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false Dalmatia and Montenegro: With a journey to Mostar in Herzegovina.Volume 1] by Sir John Gardner Wilkinson (p4).
 The historians maintain that Dubrovnik ''“is an important page of the history of Croatia”'', although Ragusa had only commercial liaisons with a Croatian territory that has not been a state for nine centuries. They repeat obsessively that the maritime republic was Croatian “almost since the beginning of her history”, that her merchant fleet was completely Croatian. Every family of the town’s aristocracy - Basilio, Cerva, Ghetaldi, Luccari, Menze, etc. - is given arbitrarily “the equivalent Croatian name“. All Ragusan state institutions are receiving Croatian denominations; all monasteries in town are presented as “Croatian”, although the clergy was Italian. You find all these misappropriations in [[Wikipedia]] “the free encyclopaedia” site, where the authors (clearly Croats) are demonstrating how grotesque are their pretensions when, at a certain point, they report the list of Ragusan senators who attended the last session of their Greater Council, the one in which it was announced that the glorious republic was dissolved (29th of August 1814): of a little over forty incontestable Italian names of the senators, only one is of Croatian origin: Marino Domenico, count of Zlatarich.
@@ Line 50: / Line 62: @@
 *The Renaissance painter Lorenzo De Boninis, born in Dubrovnik, is presented in Croatian history books and tourist guides as “Lovro Dobricevic”
 *Nicola Fiorentino, an Italian born XVI century architect active for decades in Dalmatia, becomes the fake Croat “Nikola Firentinac“.
 ===Robert D. Kaplan===
 In 1998, writing for “The Atlantic” magazine''' Robert D. Kaplan''' (author of influential “Balkan Ghosts”)<ref>[http://books.google.com.au/books?id=7zx8HswRGmMC&dq=Robert+D.+Kaplan++“Balkan+Ghosts”&hl=en&ei=M0c1TPaVLI3fcf2V7csD&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA Balkan Ghosts:] A Journey Through History ''by'' Robert D. Kaplan </ref> seemed to be the first American essayist to reveal the truth about the suppression of the Italian past of Ragusa by Croatia (and by extension of Dalmatia). ''“A nasty, tribal principality, he wrote - who are attempting to transform, in the old Republic, its character subtly from that of a sensuous, cosmopolitan mélange into a sterile, nationalistic uniformity”''.

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:29, 3 October 2010
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	== References ==		== References ==
−	~~{{Reflist}}~~	+	<references/>

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
 == While Visiting the Croatia Coast==
 While visiting the '''Croatia''' coast (Dalmatia) of the Adriatic Sea, western journalists usually admire her ancient towns. They notice almost everywhere that the regional architecture is “heavily influenced” by a “Venetian” flavour. Years ago, a famous chef posing in front of a XVI century Dalmatian building for a documentary, claimed that its architecture was “quintessentially Croatian“. In the past, certain Western writers were almost convinced (and disgusted) that Croatians “imitated” Venetian and Italian Renaissance architecture in building Dalmatian towns.
@@ Line 75: / Line 79: @@
 Today nobody is noticing and condemning this threatening phenomena. These charlatans with a master degree are doing a tremendous disservice first of all to their own country. They are also dangerous. In a region in the past tremendously violent and today with so many unsolved problems, this kind of piracy is very ominous and should be stopped.
 == References ==
 {{Reflist}}

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:32, 12 August 2010
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−	~~== Peter Z's Notes ==~~
−	The claims cited in the ''While Visiting the Croatia Coast'' (below) statement is news to me. I'm researching its content (I've started to add references to it). So far it seems to me to be not too far from the truth, however more research (maybe a few years) is needed.
−	*''Firstly'' I have problems with population stats.
−	* ''Secondly'' it appears to me that the region has problems with interpreting multicultural and ''multiethnic'' history (& societies).
−
−	~~[[User:Peter Z.\|Peter Z.]] 09:51, 11 July 2010 (UTC)~~
−
−	~~----~~
−
−	~~'''Latin'''/Illyrian/Slavic communities history of the historic ''Republic of Ragusa'' '''&''' ''Republic of Venice'' became a political football for the former Communist Yugoslavia.~~
−	* Republic of Ragusa was set up by Latin/Illyrian families.
−	* Republic of Venice was set up by Latin families.
−	~~(Venice acquired Slavic & other Latin populations through conquering)~~
−
−	~~Slavic communities later became part of these City States, which later became Republics.~~
−
−	~~Famous mixed marriages within these communities :~~
−	* Roger Joseph Boskovich (Republic of Ragusa)
−	* Fausto Veranzio (Republic of Venice)
−
−	~~Parents were [[Italy\|Italian]] & Croatian.~~
−
−	~~Austro-Hungarian census '''1816''' registered: 66 000 Italian speaking people among the 301 000 inhabitants of Dalmatia.~~
−	~~(ref from: Montani, Carlo. Venezia Giulia, Dalmazia - Sommario Storico - An Historical Outline)~~
−
−	~~[[User:Peter Z.\|Peter Z.]] 03:59, 17 July 2010 (UTC)~~
−
−	~~----~~
−	~~===Republic of Ragusa===~~
−	''Republic of Ragusa'' was set up by Latin/Illyrian families. The Republic's city, Ragusa (today called Dubrovnik) was established in the 7th century, post Slavic and Avar invasions. The refugees from Epidaurum (a Roman city) built the settlement in Dalmatia, today in southernmost modern Croatia. Over the centuries the City State-Ragusa started to have relations with the Slavic hinterland, then called Red Croatia<ref>[http://books.google.com.au/books?id=eaq90_BOvqIC&pg=PA119&dq=Andrea+Dandolo+Venetian+author+Chronicle+of+Dalmatia+Red+Croatia&client=safari&cd=2#v=onepage&q=Andrea%20Dandolo%20Venetian%20author%20Chronicle%20of%20Dalmatia%20Red%20Croatia&f=false Byzantium's Balkan Frontier:] A Political Study of the Northern Balkans, 900-1204 by Paul Stephenson </ref><ref>Presbyter Diocleas: De Regno Sclavorum; Ioannes Lucius: De Regno Dalmatie et Croatiae (Amsterdam 1666) 287-302; Schwandtner Scriptores Rerum Hungaricarum III (Vienna) 174; Sl. Mijušković: Letopis Popa Dukljanina-1967)</ref><ref>Flavius Blondus: Historiarum ab Inclinatione Romani Imperii, dec II, lib II (Venetiae 1483, f. 115 r; ed Basilea 1559) 177.</ref><ref>Andrea Dandolo (1300-1354), the Venetian author of Chronicle of Dalmatia, who writes of Croatian lands (Dalmatian Kingdom), reiterated the boundaries of Red Croatia</ref> (this term for the region ceased to be used from the 11th century onwards). Ragusa itself became an independent state in 1358.
−
−	The Croatians (Slavs), some time in the middle ages started to be part of the Republic's population. There is a theory that the Croatisation of the region started to happen in the 19-century, with the Republic becoming part of the [[Austria\|Austro-Hungarian]] Empire (then called the Habsburg Monarchy). The second theory is that it was much earlier. The 1667 Dubrovnik earthquake,<ref>[http://books.google.com/books?id=vwK4jhvjHQkC&pg=PA86&dq=dubrovnik+earthquake+of+1667&client=safari&cd=1#v=onepage&q=dubrovnik%20earthquake%20of%201667&f=false Earthquake Monitoring and Seismic Hazard Mitigation in Balkan Countries] by Eystein Sverre Husebye</ref> which destroyed the greater part of Dubrovnik has been cited as a turning point for the Republic's ethnic population make up.
−
−	In John Van Antwerp Fine's book ''"When Ethnicity did not Matter in the Balkans"'' the population of the Republic in the 15-century was describe as mainly Slavic. This is very plausible, (that by the 15 century) the surrounding area of the city of Dubrovnik, the Slavs would have been in the majority.<ref>[http://books.google.com.au/books?id=p3oGybOY1w4C&pg=PA141&lpg=PA141&dq=identity+in+dubrovnik&source=bl&ots=d90RrUeZKC&sig=Go7muOWSJwxT5CiJZJX8i0FaC0Q&hl=en&ei=XtlMTNnEN4eiuQOPkbS7Cg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=identity%20in%20dubrovnik&f=false When ethnicity did not matter in the Balkans: ] by John Van Antwerp Fine</ref>
−
−	~~''Editor's notes'': It's quite possible that the Republic was for centuries a multicultural and ''multiethnic'' society! It's ruling class were of mostly of Latin decent, but not all!~~
−	~~[[User:Peter Z.\|Peter Z.]] 01:08, 26 July 2010 (UTC)~~
−
−	~~==Korcula==~~
−	~~''Signor Arneri" stated:~~
−	:"These three pears you see on the wall," said he, "are the arms of my family. Perussich was the name, when, in the earlier part of the fifteenth century, my ancestors built this palace; so that, you see, I am Dalmatian. All the family, fathers, sons, and brothers, used to serve in the fleets of the Republic (Republic of Venice); but the hero of our race was '''Arneri Perussich''' (Arnerius Peruzzi), whose statue you see there, who fought, bled, and died at the ''Siege of Candia'', whose memory was honoured by the Republic, and whose surviving family was liberally pensioned; so his name of our race. We became Arneri, and ceased to be Perussich"<ref>[http://books.google.com.au/books?id=LUFlza-oCV0C&pg=PA164&dq=These+three+pears+you+see+on+the+wall,%22+said+he,+%22are+the+arms+of+my+family.+Perussich+was+the+name,&hl=en&ei=Q2NCTNiSCJLqvQO8y9DIDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=These%20three%20pears%20you%20see%20on%20the%20wall%2C%22%20said%20he%2C%20%22are%20the%20arms%20of%20my%20family.%20Perussich%20was%20the%20name%2C&f=false Researches on the Danube and the Adriatic:] By Andrew Archibald Paton. Chapter 4. The Dalmatian Archipelago.p164
−	* Andrew Archibald Paton (1811-1874) was a British diplomat and writer from the 19 century.</ref>
−
−	~~According to Marinko Gjivoje, Perussich is ''Piruzović''''.<ref>Otok Korčula (2nd edition) by [http://esperanto.net/literaturo/autor/gjivoje.html Marinko Gjivoje], Zagreb 1969.~~
−	*The book outlines A-Z about the island of Korcula, from traditions, history, culture to wildlife, politics & geography. Page 46-47: ''Piruzović ''. </ref>
−	'''Naski''': Naski (ours) or Illirskee ia a Slavonic Dialect. Taken'' from'' Dalmatia and Montenegro: With a Journey to Mostar in Herzegovina by John Gardner Wilkinson. Published in 1848 (p33). <ref>[http://books.google.com.au/books?id=K7oAAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA256&dq=Statute+of+Curzola+korcula&hl=en&ei=ZAtdTJ7lF5ivcI-m3NsO&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CEMQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=naski&f=false Dalmatia and Montenegro:] With a Journey to Mostar in Herzegovina by [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/John_Gardner_Wilkinson.jpg Sir John Gardner Wilkinson]
−	* Sir John Gardner Wilkinson (October 5, 1797 – October 29, 1875) was an English traveller, writer and pioneer Egyptologist of the 19th century. He is often referred to as "the Father of British Egyptology".</ref>
−	~~''Editors notes'': Naski or Naški ''(Blato was called Blatta)''~~
−	~~== When ethnicity did not matter in the Balkans: a study of identity in pre ... By John Van Antwerp Fine ==~~
−	*[http://books.google.com/books?id=p3oGybOY1w4C&pg=PA62&dq=When+ethnicity+did+not+matter+in+the+Balkans++John+Van+Antwerp+Fine++Slavonic+Neretljani&cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false Neretljani]
−
−	* [http://books.google.com/books?id=p3oGybOY1w4C&pg=PA30&dq=When+ethnicity+did+not+matter+in+the+Balkans++John+Van+Antwerp+Fine++Slavonic+Neretljani&cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false Contradict himself]
−
−	*[http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/de-administrando-imperio/parts-about-croats-and-serbs.html spiritus-temporis.com]
−	~~<!-- This is where the footnotes show up. -->~~
−
	== While Visiting the Croatia Coast==		== While Visiting the Croatia Coast==
	While visiting the '''Croatia''' coast (Dalmatia) of the Adriatic Sea, western journalists usually admire her ancient towns. They notice almost everywhere that the regional architecture is “heavily influenced” by a “Venetian” flavour. Years ago, a famous chef posing in front of a XVI century Dalmatian building for a documentary, claimed that its architecture was “quintessentially Croatian“. In the past, certain Western writers were almost convinced (and disgusted) that Croatians “imitated” Venetian and Italian Renaissance architecture in building Dalmatian towns.		While visiting the '''Croatia''' coast (Dalmatia) of the Adriatic Sea, western journalists usually admire her ancient towns. They notice almost everywhere that the regional architecture is “heavily influenced” by a “Venetian” flavour. Years ago, a famous chef posing in front of a XVI century Dalmatian building for a documentary, claimed that its architecture was “quintessentially Croatian“. In the past, certain Western writers were almost convinced (and disgusted) that Croatians “imitated” Venetian and Italian Renaissance architecture in building Dalmatian towns.

@@ Line 11: / Line 11: @@
 * Republic of Ragusa was set up by Latin/Illyrian families.
 * Republic of Venice was set up by Latin families.
 Slavic communities later became part of these City States, which later became Republics.
@@ Line 46: / Line 47: @@
 * Sir John Gardner Wilkinson (October 5, 1797 – October 29, 1875) was an English traveller, writer and pioneer Egyptologist of the 19th century. He is often referred to as "the Father of British Egyptology".</ref>
 ''Editors notes'': Naski or Naški ''(Blato was called Blatta)''
 == While Visiting the Croatia Coast==

@@ Line 43: / Line 43: @@
 According to Marinko Gjivoje, Perussich is ''Piruzović''''.<ref>Otok Korčula (2nd edition) by [http://esperanto.net/literaturo/autor/gjivoje.html Marinko Gjivoje], Zagreb 1969.
 *The book outlines A-Z about the island of Korcula, from traditions, history, culture to wildlife, politics & geography. Page 46-47: ''Piruzović ''. </ref>
 '''Naski''': Naski (ours) or Illirskee ia a Slavonic Dialect. Taken'' from'' Dalmatia and Montenegro: With a Journey to Mostar in Herzegovina by John Gardner Wilkinson. Published in 1848 (p33). <ref>[http://books.google.com.au/books?id=K7oAAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA256&dq=Statute+of+Curzola+korcula&hl=en&ei=ZAtdTJ7lF5ivcI-m3NsO&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CEMQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=naski&f=false Dalmatia and Montenegro:] With a Journey to Mostar in Herzegovina by [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/John_Gardner_Wilkinson.jpg Sir John Gardner Wilkinson]
 * Sir John Gardner Wilkinson (October 5, 1797 – October 29, 1875) was an English traveller, writer and pioneer Egyptologist of the 19th century. He is often referred to as "the Father of British Egyptology".</ref>

@@ Line 65: / Line 65: @@
 * Zrcalo /Mirror /Ogledalo
 * beštija/animal/ životinja
-* Čagalj/jakal
+* Čagalj/jackal
 '''Naski''': Naski (ours) or Illirskee ia a Slavonic Dialect. Taken'' from'' Dalmatia and Montenegro: With a Journey to Mostar in Herzegovina by John Gardner Wilkinson. Published in 1848 (p33). <ref>[http://books.google.com.au/books?id=K7oAAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA256&dq=Statute+of+Curzola+korcula&hl=en&ei=ZAtdTJ7lF5ivcI-m3NsO&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CEMQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=naski&f=false Dalmatia and Montenegro:] With a Journey to Mostar in Herzegovina by [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/John_Gardner_Wilkinson.jpg Sir John Gardner Wilkinson]
 * Sir John Gardner Wilkinson (October 5, 1797 – October 29, 1875) was an English traveller, writer and pioneer Egyptologist of the 19th century. He is often referred to as "the Father of British Egyptology".</ref>

@@ Line 58: / Line 58: @@
 (Corzulot/English/Croatian)
-*Alavia /It's Ok! /U redu
+* Alavia /It's Ok! /U redu
 * Bevanda / Wine with water /Vino sa vodom
 * Cilo / Wine without water /Vino bez vode
@@ Line 64: / Line 64: @@
 * Soldi /Money /Novac
 * Zrcalo /Mirror /Ogledalo
+* beštija/animal/ životinja
 '''Naski''': Naski (ours) or Illirskee ia a Slavonic Dialect. Taken'' from'' Dalmatia and Montenegro: With a Journey to Mostar in Herzegovina by John Gardner Wilkinson. 1848 p33. <ref>[http://books.google.com.au/books?id=K7oAAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA256&dq=Statute+of+Curzola+korcula&hl=en&ei=ZAtdTJ7lF5ivcI-m3NsO&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CEMQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=naski&f=false Dalmatia and Montenegro:] With a Journey to Mostar in Herzegovina by John Gardner Wilkinson</ref>
 == While Visiting the Croatia Coast==