User talk:Peter Z./Notes on the former Yugoslavia - Revision history

Peter Z.: rz

2011-07-21T09:41:17Z

Peter Z.: Taken from Wikipedia-Croatisation of Italy's Julian March and Zadar

2011-03-27T04:18:02Z

Taken from Wikipedia-Croatisation of Italy's Julian March and Zadar

Peter Z.: ref tidy

2011-03-01T11:02:43Z

ref tidy

Peter Z.: /* Displaced persons from the former Yugoslavia */

2011-03-01T08:09:02Z

Displaced persons from the former Yugoslavia

Peter Z.: Displaced persons from former Yugoslavia-The University of Western Australia (Italian Lives www.italianlives.arts.uwa.edu.au)

2011-03-01T08:08:15Z

Displaced persons from former Yugoslavia-The University of Western Australia (Italian Lives www.italianlives.arts.uwa.edu.au)

Peter Z.: /* Concerns */ transfer

2010-10-09T07:24:31Z

Concerns: transfer

Peter Z.: Translations were need from Croatian to Serbian until the 19th century !!! & ???

2010-10-07T01:27:08Z

Translations were need from Croatian to Serbian until the 19th century !!! & ???

Peter Z.: This is interesting history: Translation were need from Croatian to Serbian until the 19th century !!! & ???

2010-10-07T01:15:23Z

This is interesting history: Translation were need from Croatian to Serbian until the 19th century !!! & ???

Peter Z.: /* Wikipedia & former Yugoslavia */

2010-10-07T00:35:30Z

Wikipedia & former Yugoslavia

Peter Z.: /* Croatian language concerns */

2010-10-06T15:26:36Z

Croatian language concerns

@@ Line 12: / Line 12: @@
 * [[ Directory talk:Josip Broz Tito|Dictator Josip Broz Tito]]
 ----
 {{GKAdBrite}}
 == Croatia and the Communist Party of Yugoslavia==

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
 The former ''Balkan'' State '''Yugoslavia''' is indeed a complex affair. Since the fall of the ''Berlin Wall'' evidence has emerged that portrays this country in a totally different light.
@@ Line 16: / Line 11: @@
 * King Alexander I
 * [[ Directory talk:Josip Broz Tito|Dictator Josip Broz Tito]]
+----
+{{GKAnt}}
 == Croatia and the Communist Party of Yugoslavia==
@@ Line 113: / Line 110: @@
 == Displaced persons from the former Yugoslavia ==
 Displaced persons from former Yugoslavia: {{Cquote|Around 6,000 of these displaced persons from the former Italian region of Venezia Giulia (Istra) and Zara (Zadar) resettled in Australia with the assistance of the IRO. After transfer of Trieste to Italy in 1954, another several thousand Giuliani were assisted to migrate to Australia. While most were classed as Yugoslav residents and citizens, an estimated 5,000 were ethnic Italians from the cities of Fiume, Pola and Zara (Gardini 2004). Given the difficulty of ascertaining the ethnicity of displaced persons from the names and nationalities listed on official IRO documents, it is unclear how many displaced persons who identified as 'Italian' settled in Western Australia. What is clear is that the Istrian 'Italians' came from different backgrounds and had different motives for leaving their homes compared with other Italian assisted passage or sponsored migrants.<ref>[http://www.italianlives.arts.uwa.edu.au/stories/martini/background The University of Western Australia] (Italian Lives www.italianlives.arts.uwa.edu.au)</ref>}}
 == References ==
 <references/>

@@ Line 112: / Line 112: @@
 == Displaced persons from the former Yugoslavia ==
-Displaced persons from former Yugoslavia: {{Cquote|Around 6,000 of these displaced persons from the former Italian region of Venezia Giulia (Istra) and Zara (Zadar) resettled in Australia with the assistance of the IRO. After transfer of Trieste to Italy in 1954, another several thousand Giuliani were assisted to migrate to Australia. While most were classed as Yugoslav residents and citizens, an estimated 5,000 were ethnic Italians from the cities of Fiume, Pola and Zara (Gardini 2004). Given the difficulty of ascertaining the ethnicity of displaced persons from the names and nationalities listed on official IRO documents, it is unclear how many displaced persons who identified as 'Italian' settled in Western Australia. What is clear is that the Istrian 'Italians' came from different backgrounds and had different motives for leaving their homes compared with other Italian assisted passage or sponsored migrants.<ref>[ http://www.italianlives.arts.uwa.edu.au/stories/martini/background The University of Western Australia (Italian Lives www.italianlives.arts.uwa.edu.au)]</ref>}}
+Displaced persons from former Yugoslavia: {{Cquote|Around 6,000 of these displaced persons from the former Italian region of Venezia Giulia (Istra) and Zara (Zadar) resettled in Australia with the assistance of the IRO. After transfer of Trieste to Italy in 1954, another several thousand Giuliani were assisted to migrate to Australia. While most were classed as Yugoslav residents and citizens, an estimated 5,000 were ethnic Italians from the cities of Fiume, Pola and Zara (Gardini 2004). Given the difficulty of ascertaining the ethnicity of displaced persons from the names and nationalities listed on official IRO documents, it is unclear how many displaced persons who identified as 'Italian' settled in Western Australia. What is clear is that the Istrian 'Italians' came from different backgrounds and had different motives for leaving their homes compared with other Italian assisted passage or sponsored migrants.<ref>[http://www.italianlives.arts.uwa.edu.au/stories/martini/background The University of Western Australia] (Italian Lives www.italianlives.arts.uwa.edu.au)</ref>}}
 == References ==
 <references/>

@@ Line 112: / Line 112: @@
 == Displaced persons from the former Yugoslavia ==
-{{Cquote|Around 6,000 of these displaced persons from the former Italian region of Venezia Giulia (Istra) and Zara (Zadar) resettled in Australia with the assistance of the IRO. After transfer of Trieste to Italy in 1954, another several thousand Giuliani were assisted to migrate to Australia. While most were classed as Yugoslav residents and citizens, an estimated 5,000 were ethnic Italians from the cities of Fiume, Pola and Zara (Gardini 2004). Given the difficulty of ascertaining the ethnicity of displaced persons from the names and nationalities listed on official IRO documents, it is unclear how many displaced persons who identified as 'Italian' settled in Western Australia. What is clear is that the Istrian 'Italians' came from different backgrounds and had different motives for leaving their homes compared with other Italian assisted passage or sponsored migrants.<ref>[ http://www.italianlives.arts.uwa.edu.au/stories/martini/background The University of Western Australia (Italian Lives www.italianlives.arts.uwa.edu.au)]</ref>}}
+Displaced persons from former Yugoslavia: {{Cquote|Around 6,000 of these displaced persons from the former Italian region of Venezia Giulia (Istra) and Zara (Zadar) resettled in Australia with the assistance of the IRO. After transfer of Trieste to Italy in 1954, another several thousand Giuliani were assisted to migrate to Australia. While most were classed as Yugoslav residents and citizens, an estimated 5,000 were ethnic Italians from the cities of Fiume, Pola and Zara (Gardini 2004). Given the difficulty of ascertaining the ethnicity of displaced persons from the names and nationalities listed on official IRO documents, it is unclear how many displaced persons who identified as 'Italian' settled in Western Australia. What is clear is that the Istrian 'Italians' came from different backgrounds and had different motives for leaving their homes compared with other Italian assisted passage or sponsored migrants.<ref>[ http://www.italianlives.arts.uwa.edu.au/stories/martini/background The University of Western Australia (Italian Lives www.italianlives.arts.uwa.edu.au)]</ref>}}
 == References ==
 <references/>

@@ Line 110: / Line 110: @@
 *A wealth of precise information and balanced judgments presented in a clear and pleasant style … a serious and objective work – Cardinal Franc Rode, Vatican
 *An exciting and moving read – Michael Nelson, former Gen Mgr, Reuters.}}
 == References ==
 <references/>

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:24, 9 October 2010
Line 28:		Line 28:

	'''The''' events were best documented in the European Public Hearing on “Crimes Committed by Totalitarian Regimes" held in Brussels in April 2008. The commission was mainly the work of Brussels [[European Union]] and the [[Slovenia\|Government of Slovenia]].		'''The''' events were best documented in the European Public Hearing on “Crimes Committed by Totalitarian Regimes" held in Brussels in April 2008. The commission was mainly the work of Brussels [[European Union]] and the [[Slovenia\|Government of Slovenia]].
−	~~== Concerns ==~~
−	A large proportion of information (books,articles) concerning the former Yugoslavia reminded me of the Yugoslavian encyclopaedias of the 1970s. The encyclopaedias were written in the same style as the '''Great Soviet Encyclopedia'''.
−	* William Benton, (publisher of the Encyclopedia Britannica), stated that: ''"about the second edition of the encyclopedia that the encyclopedia had a political bias and claimed that its purpose was a propaganda weapon"''. Sections of the Yugoslavian encyclopaedias were also used as a propaganda weapon to show the superiority of Titoism and the Socialist Yugoslavia to other societies and political systems.
−
−	Additionally Slavicization of non Slavic regions in Yugoslavia was continued as government policy under the Communist Party of Yugoslavia after [[World War Two]]. The regime removed ethnic populations (Germans, Italians & Hungarians). This information can be sourced from reliable scholars.
−
−	~~Information was and still is being presented to the world, an historical perspective of former communist Yugoslavia that was written by a Totalitarian political system.~~
−	~~===Croatian language concerns===~~
−	*Note: The Croatian (Hrvatski) language belongs to the Southern Slavic language group. The overall labelling of the language as Serbo-Croatian is historically incorrect. Croatian predates Serbo-Croatian. The Serbo-Croatian language is a modern standard form that was created in the 19th Century. The Croatian language in fact goes back centuries. It is un-encyclopaedic to represent the language otherwise
−
−	*Note somebody once stated:"Serbo-Croatian (19/20 century standard form) is a political term and not a scientific term." This could be possible [[User:Peter Z.\|Peter Z.]] 15:26, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
−
−	~~=== VKokielov ===~~
−
−	{{Cquote\|'''Croatian''' is a South Slavic language spoken in Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina and neighbouring countries, as well as by the Croatian Diaspora worldwide. Linguists have called it a form of Serbo-Croatian language <ref>E.C. Hawkesworth, "Serbian-Croatian-Bosnian Linguistic Complex", in the ''Encyclopedia of Language and Linguistics'', 2nd edition, 2006.</ref>, using the term invented by the ''Illyrian movement'' to underscore the grammatic and lexical closeness of the three standard languages across the shtokavian dialect area of speech; the same term was adopted by the federal Yugoslav government. Notwithstanding this, the name ''Serbo-Croatian'' was not, in general, heard from shtokavian speakers. The two archaic Slavic dialects traditionally and perhaps arbitrarily ascribed to Serbo-Croatian, Chakavian and Kajkavian dialect are exclusively Croatian. It may be noted that these dialects once spanned a broader area; chakavian was spoken throughout Istria and Dalmatia and kajkavian reached from Zagorje out to Zagreb. But since the Turkish invasion five hundred years ago, shtokavian speakers have been moving west, displacing by various degrees the old speech.
−
−	The south Slavic linguistic question is brittle and complex. The bloody, destructive wars of the 1990s put an end for good to the Illyrian idea of a Serbian-Croatian nation (together with the Bosniaks, whom the Illyrians called Serbs or Croats converted to Islam), and with it to the notion of a unitary language. Croatian is written in Gaj's Latin alphabet, based on Czech.<ref>http://www.library.yale.edu/slavic/croatia/dictionary/</ref> The same alphabet is used for Bosnian and Serbian. Statement by VKokielov (Wikipedia)}}
−
−	* I ''like'' this! [[User:Peter Z.\|Peter Z.]] 15:08, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
−	~~----~~
−	~~====This is interesting history====~~
−	~~''by'' ip 83.131.67.175~~
−
−	*Pavlović Bernardin, Dubrovnik, 1747.... ''Pripravljanje za dostojno reći svetu misu... u '''harvaski jezik''' pomnjivo i virno privedeno.'' ''Pokripljenje umirućih... u '''harvaski jezik''' popravi i prištampa... za korist naroda Harvaskoga...'' - he translated liturgy books from Latin to Croatian (harvaski). Everyone who understand South Slavic languages can see that this is Ikavian Shtokavian - never spoken by Serbs.
−
−	~~In history Croatian language was called by a few synonyms: harvatski, ilirski, slovinski, dalmatinski. ''Slovinski'' is Ikavian Croatian form of word Slavic.~~
−
−	*Sforza Ponzoni, 1620, "''dalmatinski ali harvacki''” - Dalmatian or Croatian
−
−	*Stjepan Cosmi (Cosmus), 1688, always translated ''illyricus'' as ''hrvatski'' ''(Clero Illyrico — klera harvaskoga; idiomo Illyrico —harvaskoga izgovora).''
−
−	*Filip Grabovac, Venice, 1749: "Cvit razgovora '''naroda iliričkoga ali arvackoga'''" (Illyrian or croatian people). "''U Dalmaciji... se i jezik zva, kakonoti '''ilirički''', pak '''slovinski''', potomtoga '''arvacki''' i evo i danas. Tri su imena a jedan je isti jezik''." (In Dalmatia... language was called Illyrian, or Slavic, or Croatian, so still is. There are 3 names, but the language is one).
−
−	*Joakim Stulli, Dubrovnik, 1801, Lexicon latino-italico-illyricum, - word ''''illyrice'''': “''Slovinski, harvatski, hrovatski, horvatski''”. Once again Illyrian is synonym for Croatian.
−
−	~~Serbian writers were translating from Croatian to Serbian until the 19th century.~~
−	*Georgij Mihajlović, 1803. ''Aždaja sedmoglava'': "s dalmatinskoga jezika na slaveno-serbskij prečistjeno" (translated from Dalmatian to Serbo-Slavic). He didn't mention Vid Došen, a writer of the original book. Here Dalmatian is synonym for Croatian.
−
−	~~Opposite example:~~
−	*Ivan Ambrozović, 1808: "''Proričje i narečenja, sa '''srbskog jezika''' na '''ilirički''' privedena, nadopunjena i složena''" (...translated from Serbian language to Croatian...)
−
−	*Vuk Karadžić, Narodne srbske pesnarice, Vienna 1815: "''Pesne su ove... jedne štampane po Hercegovačkom dijalektu, a druge po Sremačkom..., da sam sve pečatao Hercegovački (n. p. djevojka, djeca, vidjeti, lećeti, i dr.), onda bi rekli Sremci: pa šta ovaj nama sad nameće Horvatskij jezik''". (These songs... some are written in Herzegovinian dialect, the others are in dialect of Srijem... if I wrote all in Herzegovinian (some ijekavian examples), people of Srijem (Serbs who moved to Srijem from Raška at the end of the 17th century) would say: why is he giving us Croatian language). So even V.K. who produced standard Serbian in the 18th century acknowledged here that he used Croatian language for Serbian standard.
−
−	~~----~~
−
−	*'''English''': Where are you going?
−
−	~~Slovene - Kaj: Kam greš?~~
−
−	~~'''Croatian''' - Ča: Di greš? Kamo greš? '''Note''': ''Kamo'' & ''Gdje'' are linguistically not compatible.~~
−
−	~~Serbo-Croatian (19/20 century standard form) - Što: Gdje ideš?~~
−
−	~~Serbian - Što: Gde ideš?~~
−
−
−	*'''English''': I am going to the west.
−	~~Slovene - Kaj: Grem proti zahodu.~~
−
−	~~'''Croatian''' - Ča: Gren va zahod.'''Note''': ''Gren'' & ''Idem'' are linguistically not compatible.~~
−
−	~~Serbo-Croatian (19/20 century standard form) - Što: Idem na zapad.~~
−
−	~~Serbian - Što: Idem na zapad.~~
−
−
−	*'''English''': What are you doing?
−	~~Slovene - Kaj: Kaj delaš?~~
−
−	~~'''Croatian''' - Ča: Ča dilaš (delaš)? Ča činiš?~~
−
−	~~Serbo-Croatian (19/20 century standard form) - Što: Što radiš?~~
−
−	~~Serbian - Što: Šta radiš?~~
−
−
−	*'''English''': I'm sleeping in the bed.
−	~~Slovene - Kaj: Spim v postelji.~~
−
−	~~'''Croatian''' - Ča: Spim u posteji.~~
−
−	~~Serbo-Croatian (19/20 century standard form)- Što: Spavam u krevetu.~~
−
−	~~Serbian - Što: Spavam u krevetu.~~
−
−
−	*'''English''': Light the fire.
−	~~Slovene - Kaj: Zažgej ogenj.~~
−
−	~~'''Croatian''' - Ča: Užgi oganj.~~
−	~~Serbo-Croatian (19/20 century standard form) - Što: Upali vatru.~~
−
−	~~Serbian - Što: Upali vatru.~~
−
−
−	*'''English''': My word is saying...
−	~~Slovene - Kaj: Moja beseda poveda...~~
−
−	~~'''Croatian''' - Ča: Moja besida povida...~~
−
−	~~Serbo-Croatian (19/20 century standard form) - Što: Moja riječ govori...~~
−
−	~~Serbian - Što: Moja reč govori...~~
−
−	~~:Small example:~~
−	~~::English: I want to go.~~
−	~~::Cro Ča: Želin pojti.~~
−	~~::Cro Što: Želim ići.~~
−	~~::Serb/Montenegr Što: Želim da idem.~~
−
	== Totalitarian Political System of the Former Yugoslavia ==		== Totalitarian Political System of the Former Yugoslavia ==

@@ Line 87: / Line 87: @@
 Slovene - Kaj: Grem proti zahodu.
-'''Croatian''' - Ča: Gren va zahod.
+'''Croatian''' - Ča: Gren va zahod.'''Note''': ''Gren'' & ''Idem'' are linguistically not compatible.
 Serbo-Croatian (19/20 century standard form) - Što: Idem na zapad.
 Serbian - Što: Idem na zapad.
@@ Line 137: / Line 137: @@
 ::Cro Što: Želim ići.
 ::Serb/Montenegr Što: Želim da idem.
 == Totalitarian  Political System of the Former Yugoslavia ==

@@ Line 47: / Line 47: @@
 * I ''like'' this! [[User:Peter Z.|Peter Z.]] 15:08, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
 ----
@@ Line 53: / Line 77: @@
 Slovene - Kaj: Kam greš?
-'''Croatian''' - Ča: Di greš? Kamo greš?
+'''Croatian''' - Ča: Di greš? Kamo greš? '''Note''': ''Kamo'' & ''Gdje'' are linguistically not compatible.
 Serbo-Croatian (19/20 century standard form) - Što: Gdje ideš?
@@ Line 108: / Line 132: @@
 Serbian - Što: Moja reč govori...
 == Totalitarian  Political System of the Former Yugoslavia ==

@@ Line 159: / Line 159: @@
 Yugoslavia had it all. Kids were all educated in this way and taught to '''love''' the ''great leader''. I'm not making this up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUZx70JDseU&feature=related
-Communist Yugoslavia has gotten off lightly when it comes to history. I would love to get my hands on scholarly works prior to 1945/46 and compare notes to what was written afterwards.
+Communist Yugoslavia ( & the Kingdom of Yugoslavia) has gotten off lightly when it comes to history. I would love to get my hands on scholarly works prior to 1945/46 and compare notes to what was written afterwards.
 I'm not alone in these matters, there are others who share my view.

@@ Line 38: / Line 38: @@
 *Note: The Croatian (Hrvatski) language belongs to the Southern Slavic language group. The overall labelling of the language as Serbo-Croatian is historically incorrect. Croatian predates Serbo-Croatian. The Serbo-Croatian language is a modern standard form that was created in the 19th Century. The Croatian language in fact goes back centuries. It is un-encyclopaedic to represent the language otherwise
-*Note somebody once stated:"Serbo-Croatian (19/20 century standard form) is a political term and not a scientific term."
+*Note somebody once stated:"Serbo-Croatian (19/20 century standard form) is a political term and not a scientific term." This could be possible [[User:Peter Z.|Peter Z.]] 15:26, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
 === VKokielov ===