Talk:Croatian Identity - Revision history

Peter Z.: /* Marko Marulić */

2013-03-04T10:50:42Z

Marko Marulić

Peter Z.: /* Marcus Marulus */

2013-03-04T10:41:20Z

Marcus Marulus

Peter Z.: Marcus Marulus from Split

2013-03-04T10:23:59Z

Marcus Marulus from Split

Peter Z.: page claean up

2013-03-04T10:10:19Z

page claean up

Peter Z.: /* Work page */

2013-03-04T08:42:50Z

Work page

Peter Z.: /* Work page */

2013-03-01T10:32:15Z

Work page

Peter Z.: /* Work page */

2013-03-01T10:27:35Z

Work page

Peter Z.: /* Work page */

2013-03-01T10:19:35Z

Work page

Peter Z.: /* Sources */

2013-01-15T08:55:40Z

Sources

Peter Z.: /* Work page */

2013-01-15T08:51:57Z

Work page

@@ Line 130: / Line 130: @@
 == Marko Marulić==
-'''Marcus Marulus''' (modern Marko Marulić) a Croatian from Split then part of the ''Republic of Venice'' wrote the poem 'Judit'. It was written in early 16th century and was printed in 1521, 1522 and 1523 in Venice. See below.
+'''Marcus Marulus''' (modern Marko Marulić) a Croatian from Split then part of the ''Republic of Venice'' wrote the poem 'Judit'. It was written in early 16th century and was printed in 1521, 1522 and 1523 in Venice.
-[[File:Judita-str1.gif|thumb|right|300px| Judita]]
+[[File:Judita-str1.gif|thumb|right|300px| Judita (front cover)]]
 == Translation ==

@@ Line 128: / Line 128: @@
 [http://74.125.155.132/scholar?q=cache:1oNK0Y3WzDAJ:scholar.google.com/+italijanski+ZBORNIK-150+GODINA+ŠKOLSTVA+U+VELOJ+LUCI&hl=en&as_sdt=0,5 The Early Beginnings of Formal Education - Vela Luka (beginnings of literacy and Lower Primary School 1857 – 1870):] "Talijanski je jezik bio ne samo službeni jezik u svim dalmatinskim javnim usta-novama, već pretežito i govorni jezik u znatnom broju činovničkih, službeničkih i tr-govačkih obitelji u gradovima i većim trgovištima." ''(Italian language was not only the official language in all public Dalmatian establishments, but also was the spoken language in a significant number of white-collar, civil service and merchant families in the cities and major markets within towns)''
-== Marcus Marulus ==
+== Marko Marulić==
-'''Marcus Marulus''' (Marco Marulich):  Judit   CLOSER TO THE ORIGINAL
+'''Marcus Marulus''' (modern Marko Marulić) a Croatian from Split then part of the ''Republic of Venice'' wrote the poem 'Judit'. It was written in early 16th century and was printed in 1521, 1522 and 1523 in Venice. See below.
+[[File:Judita-str1.gif|thumb|right|300px| Judita]]
 == Translation ==

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:23, 4 March 2013
Line 128:		Line 128:

	[http://74.125.155.132/scholar?q=cache:1oNK0Y3WzDAJ:scholar.google.com/+italijanski+ZBORNIK-150+GODINA+ŠKOLSTVA+U+VELOJ+LUCI&hl=en&as_sdt=0,5 The Early Beginnings of Formal Education - Vela Luka (beginnings of literacy and Lower Primary School 1857 – 1870):] "Talijanski je jezik bio ne samo službeni jezik u svim dalmatinskim javnim usta-novama, već pretežito i govorni jezik u znatnom broju činovničkih, službeničkih i tr-govačkih obitelji u gradovima i većim trgovištima." ''(Italian language was not only the official language in all public Dalmatian establishments, but also was the spoken language in a significant number of white-collar, civil service and merchant families in the cities and major markets within towns)''		[http://74.125.155.132/scholar?q=cache:1oNK0Y3WzDAJ:scholar.google.com/+italijanski+ZBORNIK-150+GODINA+ŠKOLSTVA+U+VELOJ+LUCI&hl=en&as_sdt=0,5 The Early Beginnings of Formal Education - Vela Luka (beginnings of literacy and Lower Primary School 1857 – 1870):] "Talijanski je jezik bio ne samo službeni jezik u svim dalmatinskim javnim usta-novama, već pretežito i govorni jezik u znatnom broju činovničkih, službeničkih i tr-govačkih obitelji u gradovima i većim trgovištima." ''(Italian language was not only the official language in all public Dalmatian establishments, but also was the spoken language in a significant number of white-collar, civil service and merchant families in the cities and major markets within towns)''
		+	== Marcus Marulus ==
		+	Link: http://hr.wikisource.org/wiki/Judita/Posveta
		+
		+	'''Marcus Marulus''' (Marco Marulich): Judit CLOSER TO THE ORIGINAL
		+
		+	Written in the Republic of Venice 1501 (Spalato).
		+
		+	(printed: 1521, 1522 & 1523)
		+	*modern: Marko Marulić
		+	*modern: Split - Croatia
		+
		+
		+
		+	[[File:Judita-str1.gif\|thumb\|right\|200px]]
		+	(page one)
		+	<center>
		+	Libar Marca Marula Splichianina V chom se<br/ >
		+	usdarsi Istoria Sfete udouice Judit u uersih<br/ >
		+	haruacchi slosena chacho ona ubi uoi<br/ >
		+	uoda Olopherna po sridu uois<br/ >
		+	che gnegoue i oslododi pu<br/ >
		+	ch israelschi od ueli<br/ >
		+	che pogibli''
		+
		+
		+	Prodaiuse u bnecih u marcarij u stacu<br/ >
		+	chi darsi libar sa signao<br/ >
		+	</center>
		+	<br/>
		+
		+
		+
		+	(page two)
		+
		+
		+	Poctouanomu u Isucharstu popu i parmanziru
		+
		+	Spliz chomu gospodinu dö Duimu Balistrilichiu chu
		+
		+	mu svomu Marco Marulich humigleno priporucéie
		+
		+	z duornim pochlonom milo poschita
		+
		+
		+	'''S'''ih dan
		+
		+
		+	--------------
		+
		+
		+
		+
		+
		+	(below to be work on)
		+
		+	svetih korizmenih, počtovani u Isukarstu gospodine i kume moj dragi dom Dujme, privraćajući ja pisma staroga Testame(n)ta namirih se na histor(i)ju one počtene i svete udovice Judite i preohologa Oloferna, koga ona ubivši, oslobodi svu zemlju israelsku jur od nadvele pogibili.
		+
		+	Tuj historiju čtući, ulize mi u pamet da ju stumači(m) naši(m) jaziko(m), neka ju budu razumiti i oni ki nisu naučni knjige latinske aliti djačke. Da od te stvari hoteći tvomu otačastvu, obojega jazika dobro umiću, dar prikazati, odlučih naslidovati hitrost ditce one ki o mlado(m) litu starijih svojih darijući, nara(n)če nad(i)ju mirisnimi zel'ji, mažurano(m), rusmarinom, rutom; umitelno naprave dar svoj, da zloćudo loveći povekše uzdarje. Ja put zloćudi njih ne perim, da samo onogaj hitra kiće(n)'ja, jer inoga uzdarja od vas ne išćem nego ko sam vele od pri našao: ljubav pravu i svaršenu u Isukarstu ku mi stanovito nosite veće ner sam dostoja(n), da koliko se pristoji pitomšćini vašoj ka svakomu prikloniti i pri(j)aznivi. Tu poni hitrost, kako dim, naslidujući, usilovah se rečenu histori(j)u tako napraviti kako bude nikimi izvanjskimi urehami i uglajen'je(m) i uliza(n)'jem i razlicih masti čirsan'je(m) obnajena; a to da ne rečete da vam poklanja(m) onuje žita rukovet koju u vaših knjigah bolju nahodite. Zaisto je onaje rukovet, da mnozim cvitje(m) obkićena. Kada ju dobro razgledate, reći ćete:
		+	Prominila (j)e lice kakono voći(n)a stabla premaliti kada najveće veselo cvasti budu. Evo bo histori(j)u tuj svedoh u versih po običaju naših začinjavac i jošće po zakonu onih starih poet, kim ni zadovoljno počitati kako je dilo prošlo, da mnoge načine obkladaju, neka je vični(j)e onim ki budu čtiti, naslidujući umitelnu sredbu raskošna kuhača ki na gospockoj tarpezi ne klade listo varene ali pečene jistvine, da k tomu pridaje saprana i paprana i inih tacih stvari da slaje bude onim ki su prišli blagovati. Ništar manje, da prem dar moj ni tolika dostoja(n)stva, uzdan sam u vašu dobrotu da ćete ga ljubeznivo pri(j)ati cića priproste pito(m)šćine i sartčene pri(j)azni ka je od davna meju nami. Eto k vam gre Judita gospoja ma visoko počtovana, more biti ne s manjom urehom nego kada se ukaza Olofernu, ne da vas kako i njega tim prihini, da pr(i)ja pokripi u uzdaržan'ju svete čistoće, prid oči vaše ponesši i postavivši sve lipote, krasosti, kriposti, dike i slave svoje, kimi se je urešila vele plemeniti(j)e i gizdavi(j)e nego keno se reše svilo(m), zlato(m) i bisero(m); a znajući da će moći tako počteno pribivati pod striho(m) vašo(m) kako je nigda pribivala u Betuliji pod svojom. Kada se budete s njom pitomo razgovarati, daržu da ju ćete pohvaliti ne manje ner veli pop Eliaki(m) ki od Jerosoli(m)e dojde sa svimi leviti u Betul(i)ju vidit (j)u, čuvši sarca sminost, dila hrabrost i čudnovatu svetinju života nje. S toga joj da hvale izvarsne, časti dostojne, uzviše(n)je visoko i poljubljen'je čisto, duhovno, pobožno, nijedno(m) troho(m) nedostojna poželin'ja ockvarnjeno, kako se sveti(m) pristoji i sluga(m) božji(m) podoba. I vi poni dvorno ju primite, dobrovoljno nastanite, i ku vazda hvalite dilo(m), tu pohvalite i ustmi jer je naučna hvaljena biti, navlastito od svetoga reda vašega popovskoga. Nju primite, a meni zapovite: zapovide(m) vašim služba ma vazda je pripravna da izvarši ča budete veliti, koliko joj bude uzmožno. Mir i milost gospodina našega Isukarsta budi vazda s vami. Amen.
		+
		+	Od rojen'ja Isukarstova u puti godišće parvo nako(n) tisuća i pet sat, na dvadeset i dva dni miseca aprila. U Splitu gradu.

	== Translation ==		== Translation ==

@@ Line 3: / Line 3: @@
 * [[Croatian Slavic Identity|Croatian Identity - Page '''Link''']]
-== Work page==
+==== Sources ====
 *[http://books.google.com.au/books?id=YbS9QmwDC58C&pg=PA248&dq=Dalmatia+Croatia+medieval&hl=en&ei=Yd0iTpXWO62JmQWBg-CyAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Dalmatia%20Croatia%20medieval&f=false The Early Medieval Balkans:] by John Van Antwerp Fine (p248)
 *[http://books.google.com.au/books?id=wEF5oN5erE0C&pg=PA172&dq=Dalmatia+medieval&hl=en&ei=DuMiTvORD4fPmAWVx5y3Aw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CC4Q6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q&f=false When Ethnicity did not Matter in the Balkans] by John Van Antwerp Fine (p39, p172)

@@ Line 4: / Line 4: @@
 == Work page==
-Duke Branimir 880s, spoke old Slavic Chakavian from the Dalmatian hinterland. Mr Branimir is, I believe is the first Croatian ''or'' the first Southern Slav to express himself as such (based on the current records that we have). His tribe, the old Slavic Chakavian speakers, are the first Croatians (Hrvati or more accurately Hrovati). The early medieval Western Balkans must had have multiple Slavic ethnic tribes. It appears that their history has not been recorded. From a Greco-Roman perspective they were all identified as Slavs. The Slavs found themselves living in a medieval multi-ethnic region. It was the most powerful chieftains who were leaders and they left a '''mark''' on history. The old language groups could (now refereed to as dialects and are becoming dead) still reflect the many Slavic tribes who invaded Roman Dalmatia.
+Duke Branimir 880s, spoke old Slavic Chakavian and was from the Dalmatian hinterland. Mr Branimir is, I believe is the first Croatian ''or'' the first Southern Slav to express himself as such (based on the current records that we have). His tribe, the old Slavic Chakavian speakers, are the first Croatians (Hrvati or more accurately Hrovati). The early medieval Western Balkans must had have multiple Slavic ethnic tribes. It appears that their history has not been recorded. From a Greco-Roman perspective they were all identified as Slavs. The Slavs found themselves living in a medieval multi-ethnic region and it was the most powerful chieftains (who were the main political players) left a '''mark''' on history. The old language groups could (now refereed to as dialects and are becoming dead) still reflect the many Slavic tribes who invaded Roman Dalmatia.
 * Old medieval Chakavian
@@ Line 11: / Line 11: @@
 (it is important to stress old medieval here)
-Note after a period of time in the middle ages we have new identities of Southern Slavs that being Croatians, Bulgarians, Serbs, Narantani and others. It is true that some of these words can be traced further back in history but one does not need to carry ethnicity or national identities with it as there is no proof that they existed.
+Note after a period of time in the middle ages we have new identities of Southern Slavs that being Croatians, Bulgarians, Serbs, Narantani and others. It is true that some of these words can be traced further back in history however one does not need to carry ethnicity or national identities back in time. To my understanding there is no proof that they existed.
-When the Serbian forces were annihilated in the ''Battle of Kosovo'' by the [[Directory:Turkey|Ottoman Empire]] in '''1389''' a large group of peoples stated to migrate westward. The Western Balkans started to acquire new people in its region (i.e., Croatians, Serbs, Albanians, Greeks, Turks & others), thus creating new ethnic mixes. The Ottomans themselves got to Vienna itself. Because of this during the 15th and 16 centuries the old Slavic tribal borders changed forever.
+When the Serbian forces were annihilated in the ''Battle of Kosovo'' by the [[Directory:Turkey|Ottoman Empire]] in '''1389''' a large group of peoples stated to migrate westward. The Ottomans themselves got to Vienna itself, twice. The Western Balkans from that period started to acquire new people in its region (i.e., Croatians, Serbs, Albanians, Greeks, Turks & others), thus creating new ethnic mixes.  Because of this during the 15th and 16 centuries the old Slavic tribal borders changed forever.
 In the 19th century language standardisation entered in the mix (lets not forget [[Latin]], Romance Dalmatian, Old Venetian, [[Hungary|Hungarians (Magyars)]]  & Turkish). The ''politics of language standardisation'' is the issue at heart here. The question should be ask did the 19th century scholars do their job properly or was it all about the politics of the future super 19 century Southern Slavic State.

@@ Line 37: / Line 37: @@
 * Carolingian Empire - Dalmatian Ducatus. Leader ''Mislav'' a Slav. He ruled from Klis in central Dalmatia, when he made Klis Fortress seat to his throne.
 * Carolingian Empire - Dalmatian Ducatus. Leader ''Trpimir I'' (the founder of the Slavic House of Trpimirovic). Then ''Zdeslav'' (864,878–879) • ''Domagoj'' (864–876) • ''Iljko'' (876–878)
-* Ducatus Chroatorum- Leader Duke Branimir (dux sclavorum & dux cruatorum)
+* Ducatus Chroatorum- Leader Duke Branimir (dux sclavorum & dux '''cruatorum''')
 ''Notes'''

@@ Line 12: / Line 12: @@
 * Old medieval Shtokavian dialect
-(it is important to tress old medieval here)
+(it is important to stress old medieval here)
 When the Serbian forces were annihilated in the ''Battle of Kosovo'' by the [[Directory:Turkey|Ottoman Empire]] in '''1389''' a large group of peoples stated to migrate westward. The Western Balkans started to acquire new people in its region (i.e., Croatians, Serbs, Albanians, Greeks, Turks & others), thus creating new ethnic mixes. The Ottomans themselves got to Vienna itself. During the 15th and 16 centuries the old Slavic tribal borders changed forever. In the 19th century language standardisation entered in the mix (lets not forget [[Latin]], Romance Dalmatian, Old Venetian, [[Hungary|Hungarians (Magyars)]]  & Turkish).