User:Badmachine/wikipedia-en-2013-06-07

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--- Log opened Fri Jun 07 00:00:00 2013
--- Day changed Fri Jun 07 2013
00:00 < ToAruShiroiNeko> stevejobs.com, we find you jobs!
00:00 < Jasper_Deng> TeeTylerToe: you should also know that Dell overcharges, especially w/ its Alienware brand.
00:00 < BlastHardcheese> what are you people even arguing about
00:00 < Dcoetzee> I didn't know Alienware was Dell
00:00 < Jasper_Deng> you can get it much cheaper from small vendors.
00:00 < bazinga> Jasper_Deng lol alien ware
00:00 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Jasper_Deng I for one am glad he didnt see the carnage in Syria
00:00 < TeeTylerToe> dell bought alienware
00:00 < ToAruShiroiNeko> that surely would have killed him
00:00 < Jasper_Deng> bazinga: my friends and I make a habit of ridiculing Alienware users
00:00 < Jasper_Deng> for much the same reasons why we ridicule Mac users
00:00 < mareklug> bazinga it does not matter.  the point being, you CANNOT find an iMac-grade screen for less than $500 and you cannot find Apple-grade memory for less than what Apple is charging.  Of course, you don't NEED Apple-grade memory.
00:01 < Jasper_Deng> "Apple-grade" is a myth
00:01 < TeeTylerToe> Apple pro products use IPS LCD screens which ARE more expensive
00:01 < Jasper_Deng> and if I were to get a Mac, I'd get a tower
00:01 < Dcoetzee> "Apple-grade memory"? Apple ships standard white label RAM as far as I know.
00:01 < TeeTylerToe> and very worth it for graphic artists
00:01 < mareklug> Jasper_Deng no it is not.  It is Hynix or Samsung.
00:01 < Dcoetzee> Nothing special.
00:01 < Jasper_Deng> mareklug: which is not "Apple-grade" b/c that's not specific to Apple.
00:01 < mareklug> well, if so, find me the not so special prices on either.
00:01 < Jasper_Deng> i.e. nothing special.
00:02 < Jasper_Deng> (except for exorbitant prices ofc)
00:02 < mareklug> see?
00:02 < mareklug> even you admit that Hynix or Samsung RAM is more expensive.
00:02 < Dcoetzee> But every vendor of preassembled systems overcharges for RAM.
00:02 < Jasper_Deng> no
00:02 < Jasper_Deng> I'm pretty sure you can get it cheaper
00:02 < bazinga> Which makes it better...
00:02 < bazinga> Of course
00:02 < Dcoetzee> If you want cheap RAM you upgrade after purchase, Mac or PC, doesn't matter.
00:02 < Dcoetzee> (or build from scratch)
00:02 < bazinga> Applefanboy logic
00:02 < mareklug> exactly
00:03 < Jasper_Deng> Dcoetzee, mareklug: or you buy from a small vendor like Cyberpower PC
00:03 < bazinga> Expensive = better
00:03 < mareklug> besides, what is this obsession with Apple ram prices?  everyone knows not to buy memory there.
00:03 < Dcoetzee> Jasper_Deng: True... there are some good vendors out there
00:03 < TeeTylerToe> IPS screens are better if you work in graphics
00:03 < ToAruShiroiNeko> http://walyou.com/img/apple-ipod-brand-fuji-apple-1.jpg <- apple grade :p
00:03 < Dcoetzee> Really though, buying RAM from an OEM is like buying your Coke at a movie theatre. You know they're overcharging. So you don't do it. :-P
00:04 < bazinga> Apple is the movie theater
00:04 < bazinga> Along with dell
00:04 < TeeTylerToe> or, you know, your coke from anywhere
00:04 < Jasper_Deng> Dcoetzee: not really, small custom OEMs like the one I mentioned don't.
00:04 < ToAruShiroiNeko> before you laugh: http://laughingsquid.com/fda-holds-up-delivery-of-imac-thinking-it-is-an-actual-apple/
00:04 < Dcoetzee> Jasper_Deng: Noted :-) I refer to mainstream ones
00:04 < Dcoetzee> ToAruShiroiNeko: Awesome
00:04 < mareklug> I buy my memory these days on ebay and it is working. :)
00:05 < Jasper_Deng> ewww ebay
00:05 < Dcoetzee> ToAruShiroiNeko: I could see that happening in New Zealand :-P They're super paranoid about organic imports
00:05 < Dcoetzee> But in the US, that's kinda weird
00:05 -!- Moe_Epsilon is now known as David_Stevenson
00:05 < mareklug> Jasper_Deng I highly recommend 1-4-800-memory from China.  Very reasonable people, and brand new sticks, and lifetime warranty.
00:05 < Jasper_Deng> mareklug: and on that note, you also can't deny that Apple (until possibly recently) deliberately makes it hard for you to get inside.
00:05 < Dcoetzee> Yes
00:05 < ToAruShiroiNeko> http://techcrunch.com/2009/12/04/fda-imac/ <- NOT A FRUIT? :o
00:05 < Jasper_Deng> Steve Jobs was famous for that
00:05 < Dcoetzee> Apple wants you to get your upgrades at the Apple Store
00:05 < mareklug> sure they do, and I don;t like it
00:06 < Dcoetzee> It's annoying, but they also don't want to pay the Apple Store staff extra to defeat convoluted mechanisms
00:06 < Dcoetzee> So they end up simplifying it
00:06 -!- ry [3288ebb5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.136.235.181] has joined #wikipedia-en
00:06 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Dcoetzee apple would suck if they sent astronaunts in orbit and they wanted upgrades
00:06 < Jasper_Deng> Steve Jobs' original rationale was to protect people from their own stupidity
00:06 < mareklug> Jasper_Deng I like my Apples like my 2009 iMac and the 1989 Mac IIci -- complete disassembly possible with minimum fuss.
00:07 < Jasper_Deng> ToAruShiroiNeko: they use Thinkpads in space
00:07 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Jasper_Deng ya
00:07 < Dcoetzee> I like systems that you can completely disassemble with just a phillips screwdriver of a single size and nothing else.
00:07 < Jasper_Deng> ^^
00:07 < ToAruShiroiNeko> can apples work in 0G?
00:07 < David_Stevenson> a mac is best functional disassembled
00:07 < David_Stevenson> ;p
00:07 < Jasper_Deng> mareklug: I thought Steve Jobs wanted impossible disassemblement from the start
00:08 -!- ry [3288ebb5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.136.235.181] has quit [Client Quit]
00:08 < Dcoetzee> ToAruShiroiNeko: All properly secured computers work fine in 0G, but I'm not sure they would work in low earth orbit
00:08 < Jasper_Deng> ToAruShiroiNeko: to be fair, even those Thinkpads needed cooling mods to work in 0G
00:08 < Dcoetzee> Due to increased radiation
00:08 < mareklug> Jasper_Deng you obviously don;t know any better.  The IIci was famously introduced by a VP who disassembled it for the press in 1 minute.
00:08 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Jasper_Deng first apples were essentially a PC with an apple logo
00:08 < Jasper_Deng> Dcoetzee: actually, w/o gravity you have no circulation
00:08 < Dcoetzee> Jasper_Deng: Doesn't temperature differential cause airflow?
00:08 < Jasper_Deng> not at a sufficient rate it doesn't
00:09 < Dcoetzee> Can't they just run fans? :-P
00:09 < Jasper_Deng> you basically get a bubble of hot air around your computer
00:09 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Dcoetzee you have nothing making hot air go to the top
00:09 < ToAruShiroiNeko> and cool air sink
00:09 -!- bazinga [~addihocke@wikimedia/Addihockey10] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
00:09 < Jasper_Deng> and that's not called cooling
00:09 < TeeTylerToe> hot air expands in a vacuum
00:09 < Jasper_Deng> TeeTylerToe: but they're not using it in a vacuum
00:09 < Dcoetzee> The interior of a space capsule is not a vacuum
00:09 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Jasper_Deng its basicaly a kotatsu in spaaace!
00:09 < Dcoetzee> I'm willing to believe gravity plays a role in convection
00:09 < TeeTylerToe> I meant in lack of gravity
00:10 < Dcoetzee> But is it really that important?
00:10 < Jasper_Deng> but not quickly enough
00:10 < Jasper_Deng> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Space_Station#Communications_and_computers
00:10 < Jasper_Deng> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPad#Use_in_space
00:10 < Dcoetzee> I guess you could always just have a liquid cooled system
00:10 < Jasper_Deng> (I'm betting all of you are liking that they moved to Linux last month)
00:10 < Dcoetzee> Jasper_Deng: Neat
00:10 -!- harej [~quassel@wikipedia/MessedRocker] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
00:10 < TeeTylerToe> I wish US navy ships would move to 64 bit computers
00:10 < Jasper_Deng> on that note, do we have anyone editing from space?
00:11 < ToAruShiroiNeko> they have DSL on the ISS? Not fiber? daaaang!
00:11 < Jasper_Deng> (or using IRC from space)
00:11 < TeeTylerToe> apparently the new zumwalt uses 32 bit powerpcs
00:11 < Jasper_Deng> ToAruShiroiNeko: not either
00:11 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Jasper_Deng we do I believe
00:11 < Jasper_Deng> it's satellite
00:11 < Dcoetzee> We have people uploading YouTube videos and tweeting from space
00:11 < Dcoetzee> Editing Wikipedia seems like the next step
00:11 < Jasper_Deng> yeah, but any Wikipedia editors?
00:11 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Jasper_Deng I kinda know its not DSL, I cannot imagine the surcharges from comcast
00:11 < Dcoetzee> Also, imagine how painful editing from Mars would be
00:11 < Dcoetzee> "Save" -> 3 minutes later -> "Edit conflict"
00:12 < Jasper_Deng> Dcoetzee: also, I nominate you to go to space and make the first extraterrestrial block
00:12 < Jasper_Deng> ToAruShiroiNeko: it's not Comcast either
00:12 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Dcoetzee so we should send all stewards and admins to mars to regulate the wiki?
00:12 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Dcoetzee OR move the sevrers to mars
00:12 < Jasper_Deng> I actually had dreams of IRC from Mars
00:12 < Dcoetzee> ToAruShiroiNeko: Well at the least we're gonna need a local server cluster on Mars
00:12 < Jasper_Deng> and chatting with stewards on other planets
00:13 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Dcoetzee that would be a fascinating dev project
00:13 < Jasper_Deng> Dcoetzee: based on superluminal info transfer
00:13 < ToAruShiroiNeko> but, edit conflicts shouldnt happen IMHO
00:13 < Dcoetzee> Jasper_Deng: Based on periodic data synchronization
00:13 < Jasper_Deng> you can't have IRC w/ that though
00:13 < Jasper_Deng> my (lucid) dream, in fact, was chatting w/ someone hundreds of light-years away
00:13 < Dcoetzee> Two people on Mars and Earth can't talk to each other without the latency, by any known means whatsoever
00:14 < Jasper_Deng> Dcoetzee: the means I was dreaming about is fictional, as it's superluminal
00:14 < Jasper_Deng> which somehow is equal to reverse time travel by Einsteign.
00:14 < Dcoetzee> I think asynchronous messages would be the best way for Mars and Earth folks to collaborate
00:14 < Jasper_Deng> email would still work
00:14 < Jasper_Deng> but not having IRC would be a bane
00:14 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Dcoetzee unless you use subspace, it works in Star Trek so I cannot possibly see how anything can go wrong
00:14 < ToAruShiroiNeko> just launch them to mars and let them figure out how to use subspace
00:14 < Dcoetzee> ToAruShiroiNeko: I see what you mean. Nothing ever goes wrong on Star Trek.
00:14 < TeeTylerToe> TCP over carrier pigeon
00:15 < Jasper_Deng> it would be IPv8 by then
00:15 < mareklug> maybe quantum entanglement can make it for faster communications. :) :) :)
00:15 < Jasper_Deng> mareklug: that's exactly what I was thinking of
00:15 < Dcoetzee> Jasper_Deng: And everyone will still be using IPv4
00:15 < ToAruShiroiNeko> mareklug possibly involving lasers
00:15 < Jasper_Deng> IPv6*
00:15 < ToAruShiroiNeko> IPv8!
00:15 < Jasper_Deng> Dcoetzee: by then, you won't even have enough addresses to have one address per planet.
00:15 < mareklug> the astronauts will graduate to Debian 7 by then.
00:15 < Dcoetzee> Quantum entanglement can't transfer information superluminally, based on our current understanding.
00:15 < Jasper_Deng> mareklug: didn't I mention they already did last month?
00:15 < Jasper_Deng> it's debian 10 I think
00:16 < mareklug> no, they will use Debian SIX
00:16 < Dcoetzee> That is to say, it can't transfer classical information faster than light
00:16 < Jasper_Deng> Dcoetzee: my theory was either warping space itself
00:16 -!- mindspillage [~kat@c-76-102-53-103.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #wikipedia-en
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00:16 < ToAruShiroiNeko> one possibility
00:16 < Jasper_Deng> or using the fact that neutrinos possibly can exceed c
00:16 < ToAruShiroiNeko> bring mars closer
00:16 < Dcoetzee> ToAruShiroiNeko: That kinda defeats the point of going there :-P
00:16 < Jasper_Deng> ToAruShiroiNeko: that wouldn't really help b/c it would always have to be asynchronous in orbit
00:16 < ToAruShiroiNeko> what? you'd still be using a ladder
00:17 < Jasper_Deng> so that there will always be times whne it's on the other side of the Sun from us
00:17 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Jasper_Deng unless the two orbit each other
00:17 < Dcoetzee> Jasper_Deng: That's a relatively small issue in the distant future
00:17 < Jasper_Deng> ToAruShiroiNeko: where are you going to get the angular kinetic energy for that?
00:17 < Dcoetzee> Jasper_Deng: You set up relays in orbit around the sun
00:17 < Jasper_Deng> Dcoetzee: but you still can't go faster than c
00:17 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Jasper_Deng the same place that allowed me to move a planet :D
00:17 < Dcoetzee> Yep
00:18 < ToAruShiroiNeko> so you dont have problems shipping a planet, but heaven forbid the angular kinetic energy! xD
00:18 < Jasper_Deng> (by warping space, I meant wormholes)
00:18 -!- mindspillage [~kat@wikimedia/KatWalsh/x-0001] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
00:18 < Dcoetzee> I wonder, when solar system travel becomes commercialized, will we have the equivalent of a GPS system for the solar system?
00:18 < Jasper_Deng> ToAruShiroiNeko: and the angular momentum, for which you'll need a ginormous torque
00:18 < Jasper_Deng> Dcoetzee: good question... and it'll have to measure space-time
00:19 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Dcoetzee actually you can tell where you are using jupiter and the sun
00:19 < ToAruShiroiNeko> both have very large magnetic fields
00:19 < Dcoetzee> ToAruShiroiNeko: Precisely?
00:19 < Jasper_Deng> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole#Faster-than-light_travel
00:19 < Jasper_Deng> ToAruShiroiNeko: no
00:19 < Jasper_Deng> you need at least 2 more pieces of data
00:19 < Jasper_Deng> for a total of 4 unknowns
00:20 < ToAruShiroiNeko> possibly they will not have a GPS like system but rather smart spacecraft that can calculate locaiton based on that
00:20 < Jasper_Deng> for space-time
00:20 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Jasper_Deng my point is you already have two sources to consider
00:21 < Dcoetzee> ToAruShiroiNeko: There are limits to the precision you could achieve with that though - determining the precise orbits of the planets is intractable due to chaotic interactions
00:21 < ToAruShiroiNeko> you need to have time to be able to use jupiter
00:21 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Dcoetzee precision isnt that vital in space
00:21 < Jasper_Deng> ToAruShiroiNeko: yes it is
00:21 < Jasper_Deng> b/c if you're only .001 degree off, you can miss your target.
00:21 < Dcoetzee> Jasper_Deng: That's why all spacecraft are active guided
00:21 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Jasper_Deng I dont doubt that
00:22 < ToAruShiroiNeko> but you can course correct as needed
00:22 -!- mindspillage [~kat@50-196-147-157-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #wikipedia-en
00:22 < Jasper_Deng> GPS must correct for relativity
00:22 -!- mindspillage [~kat@50-196-147-157-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Changing host]
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00:22 < Jasper_Deng> so there's already that.
00:22 < ToAruShiroiNeko> you'd have space highways
00:22 < ToAruShiroiNeko> just pop the window open and ask the space cop
00:22 < ToAruShiroiNeko> whom all would have a silvester stalone accent
00:23 < Jasper_Deng> space highways would be fully self-guided
00:23 < Jasper_Deng> and self-policed
00:23 < Dcoetzee> This reminds me of something fun http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_bombardment
00:23 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Jasper_Deng like wikipedia?
00:23  * Jasper_Deng points ToAruShiroiNeko to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2057_%28TV_series%29
00:23 < Dcoetzee> This is a Cold War weapon system that involves dropping very heavy objects from orbit
00:23 < ToAruShiroiNeko> oooh! I should see that
00:23 < ToAruShiroiNeko> I was refering to judge dreddesque future
00:24 < Dcoetzee> Basically they make it out of solid tungsten, about the size of a telephone pole
00:24 < Dcoetzee> And just throw it at whoever they want to bomb
00:24 < Jasper_Deng> that can't work from the altitudes required
00:24 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Dcoetzee one problem though.
00:24 < Jasper_Deng> w/o having the tungsten burn
00:25 < ToAruShiroiNeko> tungsten is kinda rare
00:25 < Jasper_Deng> which would dissipate the effective power delivered by the projectile
00:25 < Jasper_Deng> ToAruShiroiNeko: no, W is actually very cheap
00:25 < ToAruShiroiNeko> I'd just use tuguska like asteorids
00:25 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Jasper_Deng everything is very expensive to get to orbit
00:25 < Dcoetzee> Tungsten has a very high burning point and it has a small cross section which limits friction
00:25 < ToAruShiroiNeko> just use the rock you already have!
00:25 < Dcoetzee> But it was abandoned for a reason :-P
00:26 < ToAruShiroiNeko> future wars will be a giant game of skip stone
00:26 < Dcoetzee> Ha
00:26 < Dcoetzee> Find an asteroid, throw it at your enemy
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00:26 < Dcoetzee> That sounds kind of terrifying
00:26 < Jasper_Deng> We don't have quantum gravity yet
00:27 < Jasper_Deng> but I speculate that once we show that gravity is the same as the electromagnetic force, we can then repel it
00:27 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Dcoetzee with my luck I would strike the wrong planet
00:27 < Dcoetzee> I also like the nickname for Kinetic bombardment, which is "Rods from God"
00:27  * Jasper_Deng 's mind spins w/ flux integrals ,etc.
00:27 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Jasper_Deng its similar physcis but I am hoping more of a new particle aka graviton to do the trick
00:27 < Jasper_Deng> yeah
00:28  * ToAruShiroiNeko imagines anti-graviton gas stations
00:28 -!- lbenedix1 [~lbenedix@zfeeb.pia.fu-berlin.de] has joined #wikipedia-en
00:28 < ToAruShiroiNeko> "no smoking, SERIOUSLY!"
00:30 -!- Jasper_Deng is now known as Jasper_Deng_away
00:30 < ToAruShiroiNeko> in the future there will be bigger no smoking signs in gas stations
00:30 < Dcoetzee> ToAruShiroiNeko: Random question: in the Star Trek universe, have humans eliminated smoking?
00:30 < Dcoetzee> I can't remember
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00:31 < BlastHardcheese> of course, because if you want to smoke the federation government will mind-implant you so you don't want to anymore
00:31 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Dcoetzee no one smokes in space
00:32 < ToAruShiroiNeko> they have better narcotics
00:32 < ToAruShiroiNeko> like romulan ale
00:32 < ToAruShiroiNeko> they even eliminated alcoholism with synthahol
00:32 < Dcoetzee> Hmm
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00:32 < ToAruShiroiNeko> you COULD use a repicator to get anything you like tho
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00:33 < Dcoetzee> Speaking of which, what would it take to build a 3D printer that can print arbitrary substances and materials?
00:33 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Dcoetzee depends
00:34 < ToAruShiroiNeko> scientists believe hadrons are mostly energy
00:34 < TeeTylerToe> nuclear fusion
00:34 < Dcoetzee> I guess if you have a nice supply of liquid hydrogen and nuclear fusion you can make anything you like
00:34 < ToAruShiroiNeko> therefore you can cary a small amount of quarks and a large sum of energy it can technically be used to assemble individual hadrons as needed
00:34 < Dcoetzee> ToAruShiroiNeko: I see
00:35 < ToAruShiroiNeko> the act of that working is a different story
00:35 < ToAruShiroiNeko> let me dig up a video
00:35 < Dcoetzee> I remember one lawmaker in NZ was freaking out about the possibility of kids at home using 3D printers to print drugs. Which seems highly implausible to me.
00:36 < Dcoetzee> At this stage of development at least.
00:36 < ToAruShiroiNeko> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3xLuZNKhlY
00:36 < ToAruShiroiNeko> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ztc6QPNUqls
00:36 < Dcoetzee> On the other hand, I do anticipate small scale chemical manufacturing becoming fully automated
00:36 < Dcoetzee> For home use
00:36 < Dcoetzee> You still have to get your hands on the raw materials though
00:38 < mareklug> how much would one expect to pay these days for 8GB flash usb pen drive?
00:38 < ToAruShiroiNeko> just watch those two videos :)
00:38 < Dcoetzee> mareklug: About $8, maybe $5 at best
00:38 < mareklug> 7.87 and flat in the shape of a key so it fits into my mac book air?
00:38 < ToAruShiroiNeko> mareklug depends on the brand
00:38 < mareklug> brand: complete chinese mystery
00:39 < mareklug> Dcoetzee 7.87 delivered.
00:39 < ToAruShiroiNeko> 6.164 US Dollar
00:39 < ToAruShiroiNeko> http://www.snapdeal.com/products/computers-pen-drives
00:40 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Sony Micro Vault Classic 8GB (Black)
00:40 < ToAruShiroiNeko> thats me looking for it without effort
00:40 < ToAruShiroiNeko> so you should get prices like %$
00:40 < mareklug> ToAruShiroiNeko but there is delivery on top of that
00:40 < ToAruShiroiNeko> *5$
00:41 < ToAruShiroiNeko> http://tinyurl.com/n39zjz6
00:41 < ToAruShiroiNeko> so ~ 8USD with shipping
00:42 < ToAruShiroiNeko> thats from newegg
00:42 < Dcoetzee> Flash costs at best about 60 cents per gigabyte
00:42 < ToAruShiroiNeko> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820178555
00:42 < Dcoetzee> The overhead is from the packaging
00:42 < ToAruShiroiNeko> mareklug you could get that :D
00:43 < Dcoetzee> If you're clever, you can probably find companies who give away 8 GB flash drives branded with their brand name
00:43 < mareklug> ToAruShiroiNeko that's lovely.  but I already bought mine.  I was just wondering if I grossly overpaid.
00:43 < Dcoetzee> But usually those are 2 GB or less
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00:44 < ToAruShiroiNeko> I see .99 shipping with prices that start at 7$
00:44 < ToAruShiroiNeko> so 8$ would be a reasonable consumer grade purchase
00:44 < mareklug> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300915628875&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:US:1123
00:45 < ToAruShiroiNeko> oh I have one of those
00:45 < ToAruShiroiNeko> I got it for free :)
00:45 < ToAruShiroiNeko> from CLEF 2011 :p
00:45 < mareklug> so I did overpay.  did you have to eat, like, Belgian food to get one though?
00:45 < ToAruShiroiNeko> you just need to attend more conferences :p
00:45 < ToAruShiroiNeko> mareklug dutch breakfast
00:45 < Dcoetzee> Needless to say, little flash drives come out of your conference registration fees
00:45 < Dcoetzee> So they're not relaly free
00:46 < mareklug> attending conferences costs way moremoneythantheflairyougetattheconverences
00:46 < Dcoetzee> But, if someone else pays your registration fees, it's free for you :-P
00:46 < ToAruShiroiNeko> http://tinyurl.com/mbbcovh
00:46 < mareklug> Dcoetzee sadly I am no longer in such circulation.
00:46 < ToAruShiroiNeko> mareklug just get someone else to cover it for you
00:46 < ToAruShiroiNeko> it may be too much work for a pen drive tho
00:46 -!- heinrich5991 [hein5991@unaffiliated/heinrich5991] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
00:46  * Dcoetzee changes careers to get pen drive
00:46 < Dcoetzee> $8: SAVED
00:47 < ToAruShiroiNeko> mareklug you can just be keynote speaker :D
00:47 < mareklug> anyway, ToAruShiroiNeko  so this clef works ok?
00:47 < ToAruShiroiNeko> I dint use it much
00:47 < ToAruShiroiNeko> but it was durable
00:47 < mareklug> ToAruShiroiNeko you still have it?
00:47 < ToAruShiroiNeko> sure
00:47 < ToAruShiroiNeko> I carry something smaller tho
00:47 < mareklug> then send it to me.
00:47 < Dcoetzee> You know what I'd really like
00:47 < Dcoetzee> Is wireless subdermal digital storage.
00:48 < ToAruShiroiNeko> it'd cost me at least 10$ to ship it to you with belgian postal service
00:48 < Dcoetzee> Would always have it with me
00:48 < ToAruShiroiNeko> they charge you 9$ just for you to walk in
00:48 < ToAruShiroiNeko> unless you ara a corporation
00:48 < mareklug> ToAruShiroiNeko see?  there are good things about America.  Our postal system and its fees.
00:48 < Dcoetzee> Domestic shipping in the US is great
00:48 < ToAruShiroiNeko> I swear corporations arent ordinary people, they are the new noblty
00:48 < Dcoetzee> International, not so much
00:49 < ToAruShiroiNeko> mareklug, I agree
00:49 < ToAruShiroiNeko> If US had not as much overpriced healthcare Europe would have no one living there
00:49 < TeeTylerToe> management is the new nobility.  Doctors, lawyers, and engineers have to take a second job washing their bosses cars with their diplomas just so they can afford to send their kids through postgrad
00:49 < Dcoetzee> ToAruShiroiNeko: How dare you say that! You will not respect His Majesty Google.
00:49 < Dcoetzee> *not disrespect
00:49 < mareklug> I paid someone on eBay 0.99 for three shrinkwrapped iomega Zip100 disks and they sent it to me for 2.50
00:49 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Dcoetzee Google is a girl.
00:49 < Dcoetzee> Oh
00:49 < Dcoetzee> How can you tell?
00:49 < ToAruShiroiNeko> the o's
00:49 < Dcoetzee> ...
00:50 < ToAruShiroiNeko> look deeply into the o's
00:50 < Dcoetzee> How do you know they're not balls
00:50 < ToAruShiroiNeko> thank you Dcoetzee now I wont be able to unsee the google logo
00:50 < Dcoetzee> ;-)
00:50 < ToAruShiroiNeko> and I suppose l is the penis
00:50 < ToAruShiroiNeko> gah! :p
00:50 -!- heinrich5991 [hein5991@unaffiliated/heinrich5991] has joined #wikipedia-en
00:50 < mareklug> is there really a girl named Google?
00:50 < mareklug> like Paris?
00:51 < Dcoetzee> ToAruShiroiNeko: Someone has probably already drawn this
00:51 < ToAruShiroiNeko> http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-5900204-7.html
00:51 < ToAruShiroiNeko> "A Swedish couple have named their newborn after their favorite technology company--Google. "
00:51 < ToAruShiroiNeko> of course sweeden
00:51 < mareklug> that's a boy though.
00:51 < Dcoetzee> It's his middle name though
00:51 < ToAruShiroiNeko> for now...
00:51 < ToAruShiroiNeko> waith till he hits puberty
00:51 < Dcoetzee> Such a copout :-P
00:51 < mareklug> and only a middle name
00:52 < mareklug> he is still an Oliver
00:52 < ToAruShiroiNeko> what do you think people will call him?
00:52 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Oliver or Google?
00:52 < Dcoetzee> I'd like to see a kid named "Yahoo!" including the exclamation point
00:52 < mareklug> I WANT A GIRL NAMED GOOGLE
00:52 < Dcoetzee> mareklug: I think that'd be an adorable name
00:52 < TeeTylerToe> the 19-year-old had already served 10 months of an 11-month home detention term and with one month to go 'had run out of Xbox games to play,'"
00:52 < ToAruShiroiNeko> mareklug it doesn't exist yet... You can ADD it!
00:52 < mareklug> say, Google Marianne
00:53 < mareklug> or Google Ginger
00:53 < Dcoetzee> I think the obvious nickname would be "Googs"
00:53 < mareklug> or Goo
00:53 < Dcoetzee> That's good too
00:53 -!- LtNOWIS [~Simon@pool-173-66-20-178.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
00:53 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Ms. Goo Gle
00:53 < Dcoetzee> Plus side: the baby would learn its name quickly, because it already sounds like baby talk
00:54 < mareklug> trouble would only arise when she would be ready to take over as CEO at Yahoo!
00:54 < ToAruShiroiNeko> http://goo.gl/ ?
00:54 < Dcoetzee> Btw have you guys seen the "Wikipedia in the 80s" video yet? It is awesome.
00:54 < ToAruShiroiNeko> mareklug: http://eurofavors.com/images/deruyter_melk_hagel_img1.png <-- best thing ever
00:54 < Dcoetzee> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqD9OCa8ywQ
00:55 < mareklug> ToAruShiroiNeko that url actually workes
00:56 < mareklug> that is obviously Windows/dos version.  the Mac system 7 was more polished GUI
00:56 < Dcoetzee> I seriously wish I had Wikipedia on my DOS PC now
00:56 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Dcoetzee did you watch the veritasium videos? :)
00:56 < Dcoetzee> No
00:57 < Dcoetzee> A little bit
00:57 < TeeTylerToe> how is wikipedia on lynx?
00:58 < Dcoetzee> Reasonable
00:58 < Dcoetzee> I've used it
00:58 < Dcoetzee> I'll screenshot it now
00:58 < mareklug> Dcoetzee this was my best axcquisition yesterday  http://www.ebay.com/itm/171049940012?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1426.l2649
00:59 < Dcoetzee> http://gyazo.com/711e6202326f34a567ce6ffdaacbcff9 <-- Wikipedia on Lynx
00:59 < Dcoetzee> Today's featured article
00:59 < mareklug> I need to solder on a detached DC receptacle onto a Bose SoundDeck pvc board….  so 4 bucks and my time is pretty costeffective.  plus I get an iron.
01:00 < mareklug> Dcoetzee I have edited wiki from lynx
01:00 < Dcoetzee> mareklug: Awesome
01:00 < mareklug> you have to be careful -- some lynx will replace the UTF-8 with garbage.
01:00 < Dcoetzee> http://gyazo.com/91fd4d7b05402866b6dd31435708b84b Here's another bigger screenshot
01:00 < Firefly67> lynx still exists, TeeTylerToe?
01:00 < TeeTylerToe> Dcoetzee just used it
01:00 < Dcoetzee> Firefly67: Click my link and see :-P
01:01  * Firefly67 experiences 90s deja vu at the mention of lynx
01:01 < Dcoetzee> It's actually under active development I think
01:01 < Dcoetzee> That's how it can give a plausible layout for a webpage as complex as this
01:01 < Firefly67> which link?
01:01 < Dcoetzee> http://gyazo.com/91fd4d7b05402866b6dd31435708b84b
01:02 < mareklug> Firefly67 I have optimized http://asgp.org for navigation by Lynx.  Even though it is a heavily graphics-obscured website in a regular GUI browser
01:02 < Dcoetzee> Today's featured article on Lynx
01:02 < Firefly67> Oh
01:02 < Firefly67> Does anyone still use pine or pico?
01:02 < Dcoetzee> I use pico a lot
01:02 < Dcoetzee> It comes with most systems
01:03 < mareklug> Firefly67 yes, NetBSD bboard on freeshell.org uses pico
01:03 < Dcoetzee> Pine, not so much
01:03 < Firefly67> I used to use pico a lot. Now they have only nano.
01:03 < mareklug> pico, nano, joe.   whatever small works
01:04 < mareklug> basically i install nano first.  and later apt-get emacs ;)
01:04 < Dcoetzee> pico comes by default with almost everything, so I use it at the terminal on fresh systems
01:04 < Dcoetzee> Until I install emacs
01:04 < Dcoetzee> To edit config files and such
01:04 < Firefly67> Oh emacs overwrites pico?
01:04 < Dcoetzee> No
01:04 < mareklug> I can do elementary editing in vi, but past simple commands I never bothered to learn the syntax.
01:05 < Dcoetzee> I just prefer Emacs because more features and I know it better
01:05 < Firefly67> Same here, vim too complicated for me
01:05 < Dcoetzee> Yeah same with me, never learned vi
01:05 < Firefly67> I use emacs, but don't like the fact that you can't open tabs. You have to open a new window every time.
01:06 < mareklug> you either become a vi or an emacs person. this was decided for me by Douglas Hofstadter and Don Byrd when they were doling out manual pages from a gray cabinet in a backroom of IU CS Dept in 1982 :)
01:06 < Dcoetzee> Nonsense, some people use both :-)
01:06 < Firefly67> vi and emacs existed back then?
01:06 < mareklug> it's a matter of cultivation.
01:06 < mareklug> oh yes, on VMS/Vax no less
01:07 < mareklug> and Unix 4.3bsd/Vax
01:07 < Dcoetzee> I find it kind of hilarious that in 20 or 30 years we haven't achieved superior editing software
01:07 < Dcoetzee> Except in special purpose circumstances
01:07 < mareklug> we have Kate in kde4
01:07 < mareklug> but actaully, BBEdit is still the superior text wrangler
01:08 < Firefly67> oh do you mean the terminal-based emacs?
01:08 < mareklug> with built-in ftp-ing
01:08 < Dcoetzee> mareklug: Pffff, edlin is the way to go
01:08 < BlastHardcheese> ED IS THE STANDARD!!!
01:08 < mareklug> RMS wrote the original Emacs in TECO in the 70s
01:09 < mareklug> for Multics
01:09 < Dcoetzee> Hmm
01:09 < Firefly67> I used lynx from dumb terminals to check hotmail I think.
01:09 < Dcoetzee> I just had a crazy idea:
01:09 < Dcoetzee> Port Emacs to Python so it can be user scripted in Python
01:10 < mareklug> u mean, use Python for Emacs' inner lisp and all?
01:10 < Dcoetzee> mareklug: Yep
01:10 < Dcoetzee> Or it would be inner Python now :-P
01:10 < Firefly67> emacs got rid of the psychiatrist game
01:11 < mareklug> Dcoetzee http://pymacs.progiciels-bpi.ca/pymacs.html
01:11 < Dcoetzee> What about phases-of-moon?
01:11 < Dcoetzee> mareklug: Neat
01:12 < mareklug> Firefly67 what do you mean, got rid off?  there is Eliza in emacs 24.
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01:13 < Dcoetzee> Does it still have psychoanalyze-pinhead?
01:13 < Dcoetzee> ...it does
01:13 < dtm> hey guys.  how would i find the history of this missing image ?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agile_software_development#Comparison_with_other_methods
01:13 < TeeTylerToe> all evidence of it was probably speedily deleted
01:13 < mareklug> i am now only natively on iMac, and it is running 22 in terminal
01:13 < dtm> i'm just curious why it was deleted
01:13 < Dcoetzee> dtm: You ask an admin
01:13  * Dcoetzee is admin
01:14 < Firefly67> couldn't find psychoanalyst when i looked for it
01:14 < dtm> i have no idea why someone would just delete an image, leaving a giant hole in an article just like that
01:14 < Dcoetzee> Cause it was deleted on Commons
01:14 < dtm> Dcoetzee: o i c
01:14 < dtm> well.  yeah.
01:14 < Dcoetzee> And CommonsDelinker hasn't gotten around to delinking it yet
01:14 < Dcoetzee> It was deleted because it was from http://www.versionone.com/Agile101/Agile-Software-Development-Benefits/
01:14 < Dcoetzee> And no evidence uploader is same person as Carl Widdowson
01:14 < TeeTylerToe> seems like someone could easily made a free version of it
01:14 < dtm> ripped off, huh?
01:15 < mareklug> Firefly67 M-x psychoanalyze-pinhead
01:15 < Dcoetzee> Uploader is User:Agilista, single upload account
01:15 -!- Firefly67 is now known as FireFly67Away
01:15 < dtm> Dcoetzee: what do you mean by delinking?  do you just mean deleting the article's reference to it?
01:15 < Dcoetzee> dtm: Yeah that's what CommonsDelinker does
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01:15 < dtm> Dcoetzee: ok well shall i do that?
01:15 < Dcoetzee> Feel free
01:15 < FireFly67Away> i'll look for it mareklug. Though it was really silly when I played it.
01:15 < Dcoetzee> Unless you wanna replace it
01:15 < TeeTylerToe> WOW that's a BS graphic
01:15 < dtm> Dcoetzee: i wouldnt know what to replace it with.
01:16 < TeeTylerToe> which is exactly what I should have expected with agile development
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01:16 < dtm> Dcoetzee: the deleter didn't even leave an explanation, let alone a low res version so that anyone could know what to do about the problem.
01:16 < Dcoetzee> dtm: a low res version would also be a copyright violation
01:16 < SigmaWP> w
01:16 < Dcoetzee> dtm: And their explanation was quite clear.
01:17 < Dcoetzee> The uploader didn't supply a license justifying why it is under a free license.
01:17 < dtm> TeeTylerToe: yeah that's cute
01:17 < TeeTylerToe> it's a pretty ridiculous graphic
01:17 < dtm> Dcoetzee: yeah i'm just sayin i can't find it, so am i lacking in detective skillz?
01:17 < Dcoetzee> That's English Wikipedia's fault :-)
01:17 -!- FireFly67Away [~Firefly67@unaffiliated/firefly67] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
01:17 < Dcoetzee> They made all nonexistent images redirect to the upload form
01:18 < Dcoetzee> Although, once a file is deleted on Commons, the deletion summary is not shown on local projects either
01:18 < TeeTylerToe> how unhelpful
01:18 < dtm> Dcoetzee: why would they do that?  rather than link to an explanation
01:18 < Dcoetzee> So it's a combination of two problems
01:18 < Dcoetzee> dtm: I have no idea. I can't imagine any circumstance under which the current behaviour is useful.
01:18 < dtm> Dcoetzee: how do you even find what you found?  i can't find a deleted image by searching for its filename on commons.wikimedia.org
01:18 < dtm> Dcoetzee: weird.
01:18 -!- Hahc21 [~Hahc21@wikipedia/Hahc21] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
01:19 < dtm> Dcoetzee: is it because i have insufficient powerz?
01:19 < Dcoetzee> dtm: It doesn't show up cause it's deleted
01:19 < Dcoetzee> dtm: Take filename, put it after http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/
01:19 < dtm> i need more wikipowerz?
01:19 < dtm> k
01:19 < TeeTylerToe> Go to asia and train like the monks
01:19 < Dcoetzee> I realise this is obscure as hell and a terrible interface.
01:19 < dtm> Dcoetzee: i see this http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Agile_Development_Value_Proposition_Chart.jpg
01:19 < dtm> which has no explanation
01:19 < Dcoetzee> dtm: Sorry, put a File: before it
01:19 < dtm> ok
01:19 < mareklug> new skype 6.5 is out.  everybody update.
01:19 < Dcoetzee> mareklug: Ok
01:20 < TeeTylerToe> ...
01:20 < dtm> Dcoetzee: ALRIGHTY, THEN.
01:20 < dtm> Dcoetzee: lol
01:20 < Dcoetzee> dtm :-)
01:20 < dtm> Dcoetzee: so THAT'S all i had to do ;)
01:20 < Dcoetzee> Now you know the magic :-P
01:20 < dtm> i guess so
01:20 < Dcoetzee> You're in teh cabal
01:20 < dtm> mareklug: roger
01:20 < dtm> Dcoetzee: i know the secret handshake
01:20 < Dcoetzee> mareklug: Installed
01:21 < Dcoetzee> I use URL hacking on Wikipedia all the time
01:21 < Dcoetzee> I'm too impatient to use the search box
01:21 < dtm> oic
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01:21 < Dcoetzee> It can save a few seconds if you know exactly what you're looking for
01:21 < dtm> yeah.
01:22 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Dcoetzee I just use 6 degrees of separation
01:22 < dtm> Dcoetzee: but then you have to look your loved ones -- your mom -- in the eye and tell them you're a hackerq
01:22 < ToAruShiroiNeko> I start at [[Sex]]
01:22 < Dcoetzee> dtm: I am! I admit it! A URL hacker. Wanted by the FBI.
01:22 < ToAruShiroiNeko> dtm Dcoetzee's mom probably is a computer master
01:22 < dtm> q
01:23 < Dcoetzee> Hahaha no
01:23  * ToAruShiroiNeko imagines an elderly lady in geek SWAT gear raiding botnets
01:23 < mareklug> dtm  hacker was a good word once.
01:23 < Dcoetzee> Whenever my mom has a problem with the computer my dad is like "tell me your password and I'll fix it" and she does and then he reads all her email
01:23 < Dcoetzee> She's done this at least 3 times
01:23 < mareklug> dtm there was even a mainstream book by the gadfly Steven Levy called Hackers
01:23 < Dcoetzee> Even after I explained not to
01:24 < ToAruShiroiNeko> one hacker a day keeps the doctor away
01:24 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Dcoetzee to be fair she has nothing to hide
01:24 < ToAruShiroiNeko> >:D
01:24 < Dcoetzee> ... :-P
01:24 < ToAruShiroiNeko> in fact why do email accounts even have passwords?
01:24 < ToAruShiroiNeko> since the rationale is "you dont have anything to hide"
01:24 < Dcoetzee> ToAruShiroiNeko: Kind of pointless, government sees it all anyway :-P
01:25 < ToAruShiroiNeko> the government watches you masturbate too
01:25 < Dcoetzee> Yeah I always try to put on a show for them
01:25 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Dcoetzee so its the ceiling cat government
01:25 < Dcoetzee> Does that make Ceiling Cat a government agent?
01:25 -!- harej [~quassel@wikipedia/MessedRocker] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
01:25 < Dcoetzee> Or does the government work for Ceiling Cat?
01:25 < ToAruShiroiNeko> no ceiling cat is THE government
01:26 < Dcoetzee> So all those supposed humans in positions of power on the news is an elaborate lie perpetrated by Ceiling Cat?
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01:27 < dtm> mareklug: Hackers: Heroes of the Computer Revolution.  See also:  Insanely Great: The Life and Times of the MAcintosh, the Computer that Changed Everything.  if i'm remembering it correctly.
01:27 < dtm> mareklug: and i hope you've read the one about Taligent
01:28 < dtm> mareklug: it's time for you to memorize all Apple literature and lore, and synthesize it into [[Star Trek project]]
01:29 < dtm> mareklug: bonus points for Novell lore
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01:31 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Dcoetzee I suspect ceiling cats real name is Louis
01:31 < Dcoetzee> ToAruShiroiNeko: Why's that?
01:31 < ToAruShiroiNeko> and yes
01:31 < ToAruShiroiNeko> cats run the government
01:32 < ToAruShiroiNeko> "I am the state." - Louis XIV
01:32 < Dcoetzee> ...of course
01:32 < Dcoetzee> Speaking of which I'm watching a good anime at the moment that takes place in France under Louis XV's reign
01:32 < Dcoetzee> Called Le Chevalier D'Eon
01:33 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Dcoetzee: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75oun5gvDAU&feature=youtu.be&t=3m23s
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01:35 < ToAruShiroiNeko> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75oun5gvDAU if you want the full suply
01:35 < |Lobo|> hi, could anyone tell me what's the name of this type of glass? http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Cerveza_y_pulpo_seco_motrile%C3%B1o.jpg
01:37 < |Lobo|> http://www.softguides.com/guia_madrid/ocio/salir/imagenes/cerveza.jpg
01:37 < |Lobo|> maybe tumbler?
01:38 < Dcoetzee> I almost corrected your spelling there
01:38 < Dcoetzee> Those are tumblers indeed
01:39 < |Lobo|> hm sorry, English is not my main language, where did I make a mistake?
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01:39 < Dcoetzee> You didn't
01:39 < |Lobo|> ah ok :)
01:40 < BlastHardcheese> ToAruShiroiNeko: he never said that
01:40 < |Lobo|> dcoetzee thank you for your help
01:40 < ToAruShiroiNeko> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75oun5gvDAU&feature=youtu.be&t=3m23s# <- Dcoetzee epic quote!
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02:07 < dtm> tommorris: i haven't gotten any reply at all, fyi, to my second request for a citation of policy on the deletion of my image
02:07 < dtm> tommorris: after something like three days
02:07 < dtm> tommorris: nothing new; just letting you know
02:08 < tommorris> dtm: might be an idea to ask the guy if he can email in proof of copyright transfer to OTRS
02:08 < tommorris> convincing commons to be less paranoid about copyright might be about as productive as convincing the Catholic church on the merits of agnosticism
02:08 < dtm> tommorris: the whole point is that there is no copyright transfer.
02:09 < dtm> nor is there any reason to think that there ever would be, nor is there any reason to delete by default
02:09 < dtm> we already discussed that
02:10 < dtm> he emailed in his direct assertion of the fact that he always owned the copyright, and they have no reason to question that, and nobody has ever challenged it.
02:10 < dtm> i'm not sure i'd call it being paranoid; i think i'd just call it directly *wrong*
02:11 < dtm> paranoia could have some theoretical merit.  this doesn't.
02:11 < dtm> this is just abuse of fellow volunteers, and of the public.
02:11 < tommorris> indeed.
02:11 < dtm> their request is fallacious and impossible to fulfill.
02:12 < dtm> they have literally vandalized a wikipedia article.
02:12 < dtm> lots of vandals think they're justified!  lol
02:12 < dtm> and then when confronted with facts, they disappeared.  this is a disease.
02:13 < dtm> sad to say.  i imagine the potential volume of content shoveled into Commons every day, and i shudder to think how many people may be falling victim to this.
02:15 < dtm> tommorris: in case you were giving me a nod-and-a-wink, a-nod's-as-good-as-a-wink-to-a-blind-man suggestion there, no it hadn't occured to me to lie to them by way of a falsified copyright transfer.  though the volunteer deserves it, the public trust that is Commons does not ;)
02:15 < tommorris> no, I wasn't suggesting that.
02:15 < dtm> i didn't think so! ;)
02:15 < tommorris> I don't really know what to suggest, sadly.
02:15 < dtm> k
02:15 < dtm> tommorris: you said you were going to do something?
02:15 < dtm> to what ends, i dont know
02:15 < tommorris> well, I posted a thread on Commons
02:15 < dtm> ok do you have a url for that
02:16 < tommorris> yep, I'll post it to you in a sec
02:16 < tommorris> brb
02:16 < dtm> i have another biography with the same scenario, and the guy's all poised so send in his copyright assertion and i told him not to!
02:17 < dtm> in fact, you know i could actually lie and upload it to en.wp, claiming that no free equivalent exists.
02:17 < dtm> :\
02:18 < dtm> tommorris: so there's literally *no* escalation process?  no manager over the guy, so to speak?
02:19 < dtm> if this was a corporation, the customer could simply demand to speak to management, have the original clerk overturned and reprimanded, and carry on in a matter of minutes.
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02:20 < dtm> i dont wanna mess with anyone, but i dont know of any escalation here at all
02:20 < dtm> this is rule by fiat so far
02:24 < dtm> tommorris: thanks though.  i'll bbl
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02:26 < tommorris> dtm: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#Small_business_portraits_and_work-for-hire
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02:27 < kmh_> "WHen Wikipedia has a server outage, my apparent IQ drops by 30 points"
02:27 < kmh_> : http://xkcd.com/903/
02:29 < DarwinS> Am I able to change my name on Wikipedia?
02:29 < dtm> DarwinS: yes, google it, for a howto
02:30 < DarwinS> No no
02:30 < DarwinS> My account username
02:30 < Dcoetzee> DarwinS: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Changing_username
02:31 < DarwinS> Thanks
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02:33 < kmh_> Dcoetzee, : no server outage yet Ic :)
02:33 < Dcoetzee> Indeed
02:34 < mareklug> Dcoetzee dtm https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/105918205/blackfeet%20res.%20--%20rockies.jpg
02:34  * mareklug playing Koyaanisqatsi
02:34 < mareklug> Currently spinning  Koyaanisqatsi (HQ) by Philip Glass from the album Koyannisqatsi (HQ)
02:34 < Dcoetzee> :-) old school
02:35 < mareklug> very old school.  it is my longtime desktop on my Wallstreet II PDQ 300MHz
02:35 < dtm> mareklug: word
02:36 -!- harej [~quassel@wikipedia/MessedRocker] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
02:38 < mareklug> I wonder if I should release it on cc-by-sa, but ppl will complain on commons that it is too low res.  as in reservation...
02:39 < Dcoetzee> mareklug: Nobody complains about low res pics on Commons unless you're nominating them for FP :-P
02:39 < Dcoetzee> Low res > nothing
02:39 < mareklug> we might not have a panoramic shot of the Blackfeet Reservation with rockies in the skyline...
02:41 < mareklug> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Blackfeet_Indian_Reservation.jpg    we do, but without snowcaps and smaller :)
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02:50 < Dcoetzee> mareklug: We'd be glad to have yours :-)
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02:52 < mareklug> i'm composing descriptions.
02:52 < Dcoetzee> Yay
02:52 < Dcoetzee> I really need to transfer a bunch of my Flickr pics to Commons
02:52 < Dcoetzee> But I'm lazy/busy
02:52 < Dcoetzee> I might hire another Wikipedian to do it
02:53 < Dcoetzee> I already set up a Toolserver script to make it easy
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02:59 < dtm> tommorris: http://pastebin.com/W1kfuVwW   this is my reply draft.  what do you think?
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03:00 < dtm> Dcoetzee: cool.
03:01 < tommorris> dtm: so, I wrote it from the perspective of "what should happen in scenario X?" - you might want to explicitly point out that you aren't coming from a hypothetical but are dealing with a similar real case
03:01 < dtm> tommorris: okay.
03:01 < tommorris> also, line 2, you are basically telling Commons how to suck eggs
03:01 < dtm> tommorris: nope.  what made you think that?
03:02 < tommorris> dtm: nobody could possibly disagree with that. so saying it makes it sound like the thread participants have failed to do so
03:02 < dtm> no it doesn't.  it says "here's the facts"
03:03 < tommorris> it's like saying "I hope we all agree that beating one's wife is a problem." by raising it as an issue, it impicitly suggests that someone doesn't consider beating their wife to be a problem
03:03 < dtm> tommorris: besides that, indeed various  people in this very thread have already disagreed with that.
03:03 < dtm> various people are saying "in my experience, the opposite is true"
03:04 < dtm> and i'm saying "that's noted, and instructive, but not ultimately the deciding factor"
03:04 < dtm> and no, no such implicit communication exists
03:04 < dtm> that's not a logical implication
03:04 < dtm> even if people hadn't already said otherwise
03:05 < dtm> i mean if you think there's a readability problem, then i'm all ears ;)
03:06 < dtm> it's kinda hard to second guess various psychological problems that every reader could have though
03:06 -!- addsleep is now known as addshore
03:06 < dtm> i can prolly soften that statement even more though
03:07 < tommorris> AGF of thread participants. lay the problem out calmly and rationally without assuming anything.
03:07 < tommorris> also, I'm at work. ;)
03:07 < dtm> word
03:07 < dtm> tommorris: that is precisely what i did.  you're giving me assumptions.  ;)
03:09 < dtm> tommorris: what is AGF?  do you think that anything i said would definitely be misconstrued by the participants?  maybe there are hot topics that i am unfamiliar with, coz i haven't read this forum before.
03:09 < dtm> tommorris: i rewrote it to say "However instructive, anecdotal evidence and stories aren't the ultimate deciding factor."
03:09 < tommorris> Assume Good Faith
03:09 < dtm> yeah that's what *I'm* saying <3
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03:09 < tommorris> oh sure, but it still sounds rather condescending
03:10 < dtm> that's one of the main things i love about wikipedia culture
03:10 < dtm> tommorris: wat.
03:10 < tommorris> generally I try very hard to not lecture - it's counter-productive. just lay the facts and the case you are making out calmly
03:10 < dtm> a person would have to be a bit disturbed, to think that a blatantly logical list of my own assumptions, in an introductory statement, is condescending.
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03:11 < dtm> tommorris: yes.  that's precisely what this is.
03:11 < dtm> it's literally a list of facts.
03:11 < dtm> i dont wanna disturb you at work of course
03:13 < Dcoetzee> dtm: Small suggestion: if you're not sure what about your tone is amiss, you might try being a little deferential and inserting some polite language.
03:13 < Dcoetzee> That can help offset any unintended meaning.
03:13 < dtm> Dcoetzee: yeah.  i have a bunch of polite language.  beginning, end, etc <3
03:14 < dtm> i don't see anything at all that's amiss.  i just don't know all of the potential lingo and history.
03:14 < dtm> but the history of this particular thread is a bunch of anecdotal *junk*
03:14 < mareklug> https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=48.658611,-112.871667&q=loc:48.658611,-112.871667&hl=en&t=h&z=9   does that look vaguely right to you?
03:15 < mareklug> vide: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/105918205/blackfeet%20res.%20--%20rockies.jpg
03:15 < dtm> it's presumptive, vague, and generally unhelpful.  i seek to clarify!
03:15 < SigmaWP> night
03:15 < dtm> i mean it's basically saying "there are lots of problems" and i'm just sayin "yeah but you can't solve them in this way"
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03:16 < tommorris> dtm: Dcoetzee is, iirc, a Commons admin. he can probably help here in a way I can't. ;)
03:16 < dtm> there is total collateral damage which some cases can't recover from.  total loss.
03:16 < Dcoetzee> I'm already readin' stuff, maybe later
03:16 < dtm> tommorris: very well!  and thank you again sir.  let me know if you have any other suggestions.
03:16 < dtm> i would genuinely like to help to solve the fundamental problem somehow.
03:17 < Dcoetzee> dtm: Can you give me the blunt one sentence summary
03:17 < dtm> i mean.  i did solve one fundamental problem.
03:17 < Dcoetzee> Of the issue
03:17 < wctaiwan> yum, bureaucracy.
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03:19 < dtm> Dcoetzee: TL;DR Commons has a presumptive and deletionist tendency, if a self-portrait doesn't have a copyright statement by a photographer (who is always presumed to exist, and who is always presumed to hold the copyright).  this flies in the face of the existence of "work for hire", of "verbal contract", and of common sense.
03:19 < Dcoetzee> That's ridiculous.
03:19 < Dcoetzee> Work for hire law in the United States.
03:19 < dtm> and it may be cases beyond this, but my personal anecdote is that of the self-portrait
03:19 < Dcoetzee> And most other nations.
03:20 < dtm> Dcoetzee: so you grok what i'm sayin huh?
03:20 < Dcoetzee> Does not grant rights to the employer unless a contract states as much.
03:20 < Dcoetzee> Verbal contracts that aren't documented are essentially unenforcable, rendering any presumptive defense based on them moot.
03:20 < dtm> what would make you say that?  you're talking like judge, jury, and executioner
03:21 < Dcoetzee> Moreover many if not most photographers in the US prefer to retain rights to their works, and explicitly write that into their contracts.
03:21 < dtm> the point is that verbal contracts happen literally all the time, and they are tangible
03:21 < Dcoetzee> So that they can build and distribute a portfolio without interference.
03:21 < dtm> yeah, unless they dont.
03:21 < dtm> that's just more anecdotes
03:21 < Dcoetzee> Do you have anything but anecdotes to offer in return?
03:22 < dtm> i didn't offer anecdotes at all.  i just stated the logical facts of the matter.
03:22 < Dcoetzee> I'm just saying, work for hire law in the US doesn't apply.
03:22 < QueenOfFrance> since when has commons to do with logic anyway
03:22 < Dcoetzee> It only applies to the 11 specific categories of works.
03:22 < Dcoetzee> None of which cover typical portraits
03:22 < dtm> QueenOfFrance: well that's kinda what i'm sayin so far
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03:23 < Dcoetzee> Commons follows the law. The law is fucked up.
03:23 < Dcoetzee> It's unfortunate but not much we can do about it.
03:23 < Dcoetzee> My apologies that Congress has failed to follow your intuitions.
03:23 < QueenOfFrance> heh law is another thing that has nothing to do with logic
03:24 < dtm> Dcoetzee: i imagine that commons mostly follows the law, but not all situations are explicitly codified to picturesque detail in law.  you just mentioned and summarily dismissed some law, in the same statement.
03:24 < Dcoetzee> Okay, I'll link you the details
03:24 < dtm> anybody could take a self portrait, where another photographer doesn't even exist.
03:25 < dtm> commons is implicitly denying the possibility of this
03:25 < QueenOfFrance> dtm: bring a common law country, law is worth what it's worth jurisprudence would need to be analyzed
03:25 < Dcoetzee> That's true. We often look for signals in the photo that the person is taking a self portrait
03:25 < QueenOfFrance> *being
03:25 < dtm> they're basically saying that photographic art inherently involves a separate person, and that this person inherently owns the copyright.
03:25 < dtm> none of that is true
03:25 < Dcoetzee> Examples include use of a mirror, EXIF data similar to other photos taken by them, the pose and timing, etc.
03:25 < dtm> they're not giving any gray area
03:25 < Dcoetzee> We have to make a judgement call about whether it's a self portrait.
03:25 < dtm> Dcoetzee: none of that is definitive proof of the negative
03:26 < dtm> Dcoetzee: all of this comes down to taking the submitter's word for it!  Commons doesn't know most of these people from Adam!
03:26 < Dcoetzee> It's very hard to determine that after the fact, and in the absence of clear evidence or a claim by the uploader the precautionary principle dictates conservatism.
03:27 < Dcoetzee> The fact that we trust uploader claims at all is somewhat incongruous with the precautionary principle but also the project wouldn't really work otherwise.
03:27 < dtm> i mean this is all preposterous.  a person coudl take their own self portrait regardless of any visual evidence.
03:27 < dtm> Dcoetzee: that's my point -- for some scenarios, the project doesn't work, period
03:27 < dtm> as it stands
03:27 < dtm> but i didn't see a policy that says that it's acceptable for it to work for a certain percentage, and to nuke the rest
03:27 < Dcoetzee> The fact remains that in many cases we successfully seek clarification from the uploader that the portrait is in fact a self-portrait.
03:28 < dtm> Dcoetzee: yes i said that it is, in this case
03:28 < dtm> and the guy is implying that i'm lying.
03:28 < Dcoetzee> I would consider an uploader claim by a reputable user to be sufficient evidence for a keep.
03:28 < Dcoetzee> And anyone arguing against that is being overconservative.
03:28 < dtm> i told him the subject owns the copyright.  they have literally no reason to disbelieve it, and nobody has ever challenged the claim.
03:28 < dtm> Dcoetzee: see that's common sense, and that's what i'm saying
03:29 < Dcoetzee> Did you say it was a self portrait?
03:29 < dtm> i'm a reputable user, having authored several articles, and have no disciplinary history
03:29 < Dcoetzee> Or did you just claim that the subject mysteriously owns the copyright through some poorly explained mechanism?
03:30 < Dcoetzee> Neither work for hire laws nor verbal contracts are going to suffice in a case like this.
03:30 < dtm> Dcoetzee: nobody asked that.  i complied with all of the procedures and required statements, and these people just *kaboom* deleted it.  i dont remember if i used the term "self-portrait".  i know that i said that the subject owns the copyright, and that they have absolutely no reason to think otherwise, and that nobody has challegned it.
03:30 < dtm> this is functionally tantamount to vandalism
03:30 < Dcoetzee> Please don't bandy about the word vandalism.
03:30 < dtm> if i walked wikipedia, deleting stuff by personal fiat, that wouldn't stand either.
03:31 < Dcoetzee> That deletion is well in line with conventional practice.
03:31  * wctaiwan whistles loudly
03:31 < wctaiwan> oh hi everyone.
03:31 < dtm> Dcoetzee: well i'm just saying the literal truth.  a lot of vandals believe that they're justified too.
03:31 < dtm> wctaiwan: hellos
03:31 < Dcoetzee> Neither the law in your nation nor any of the circumstances around the case suggest that you are in fact the copyright holder.
03:31 < Dcoetzee> You can't just say "Oh I am trust me"
03:31 < wctaiwan> dtm: HINT HINT
03:31 < QueenOfFrance> Good afternoon wctaiwan
03:31 < Dcoetzee> We need *some* evidence
03:31 < wctaiwan> hey Snowolf :)
03:32 < Dcoetzee> If you said "it's a self portrait" that would be evidence. If you said "I can get an email from the photographer" that would be great.
03:32 < Dcoetzee> It doesn't take much evidence. But bold unsubstantiated claims about copyright status won't fly.
03:32 < dtm> Dcoetzee: okay but.  there is no unfalsifiable evidence.  there is no case in which a common, non-celebrity person, would submit anything verifiable.
03:32 < dtm> Dcoetzee: okay i undersatnd that
03:33 < dtm> but it does literally all come down to the submitter's fiat vs. the deletionist's fiat
03:33 < Dcoetzee> You have to understand the kind of uploaders we deal with.
03:33 < Dcoetzee> People who take shit off the web, upload it marked as their own work.
03:33 < dtm> unless we're talking about a highly well known subject like Brad Pitt
03:33 < dtm> Dcoetzee: yeah i totally hear that, bro
03:33 < Dcoetzee> When we challenge them they say "I am copyright holder please don't delete"
03:33 < dtm> it's a tough racket *sip*  ;)
03:33 < Dcoetzee> And you know, it's obviously bullshit
03:33 < dtm> i used to be in volunteer customer support!
03:33 < Dcoetzee> Sometimes even reputable users, good article writers
03:34 < dtm> Dcoetzee: that sux
03:34 < Dcoetzee> Are quite entirely clueless about copyright and think anything they find online is free
03:34 < dtm> yeah.  oh the things i hear in here and in -help-en
03:34 < Dcoetzee> So we need a little more than just a claim.
03:34 < Dcoetzee> That said they should have followed up with you in a case like this.
03:34 < dtm> yeah.  they'll still just get nothing more than a claim, but people can act like it isn't! ;)
03:35 < Dcoetzee> We have some deleting admins who don't read deletion requests or address arguments in favor of keeping.
03:35 < dtm> Dcoetzee: furthermore, i'll note that they deleted it without contacting me at all beforehand of afterward
03:35 < tommorris> you can usually tell the ones which have been nicked off the Internet because they are released under the 'Free Art License'. because, hurr durr, it's art, and it's on the internet, ergo, it must be free, therefore "Free Art Library"!
03:35 < Dcoetzee> Yeah
03:35 < tommorris> "Free Art License" rather
03:35 < dtm> Dcoetzee: then, when i contacted them, they didn't undelete it for a discussion period
03:35 < dtm> just refused!
03:35 < dtm> tommorris: blame English!  "free"!!!  ;)
03:35 < Dcoetzee> dtm: If you commented in the deletion request with keep and more evidence was needed they really should have followed up with you. They often don't because deletion admins are really trigger happy, largely due to enormous backlogs.
03:36 < dtm> Dcoetzee: totally
03:36 < dtm> and then he was just tautologically silly in the followup
03:36 < Dcoetzee> At least two admins have been deadminned for not justifying their deletions adequatley.
03:36 < dtm> indeed, i kindly requested to see his policy in writing, that he'd followed.  he ignored it.  i asked again, and i never heard from him for three days.
03:36 < dtm> so that sucks bigtime
03:36 -!- Jnorton7558 [~whocares@wikipedia/Jnorton7558] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
03:37 < Dcoetzee> Fastily is the most famous offender but there are others
03:37 < dtm> Dcoetzee: so if this was a customer service agency, even in a gigantic megacorp like a bank, they'd be reprimanded
03:37 < dtm> in my particular case
03:37 < dtm> this was pretty coarse
03:38 < Dcoetzee> dtm: In the future my advice if you aren't satisfied following up with the deleting admin is to take it to undeletion requests directly yourself
03:38 < wctaiwan> customer service agency?
03:38 < dtm> Dcoetzee: i did not know that exists
03:38  * wctaiwan checks his bank account for cheques from the WMF
03:38 < wctaiwan> ...nope :P
03:38 < Dcoetzee> dtm: It's not very well advertised... should update policy pages. Now you know :-P
03:38 < dtm> Dcoetzee: i see no followup procedure whatsoever, beyond hitting 'reply' in my email
03:38 < dtm> Dcoetzee: yes plz
03:39 < Dcoetzee> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Undeletion_requests
03:39 < dtm> Dcoetzee: even tommorris didn't know of any followup procedure, and he's been an OTRS volunteer.  this is not cool.
03:39 < dtm> i mean that's pretty non-obvious;)
03:39 < tommorris> tbf, my OTRS volunteering isn't for Commons
03:39 < tommorris> I have Commons queue access but I mostly hang out on the en.wp queues
03:40 < Dcoetzee> dtm: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_policy#Appeal
03:40 < dtm> tommorris: yeah i'm just sayin this should be pretty obvious to someone who's as interested as you or i are
03:40 < Dcoetzee> It's linked from there... I'm not sure if you've seen this page
03:40 < dtm> it should be at the bottom of all OTRS emails
03:40 < dtm> some manner of escalation or policy publication
03:40 < dtm> Dcoetzee: no i hadn't, thanks
03:40 < Dcoetzee> Can you think of other places to put it besides that page that would be useful?
03:40 < dtm> Dcoetzee: well at the bottom of every OTRS email
03:40 < Dcoetzee> That is our main policy page regarding deletion.
03:40 < wctaiwan> It wouldn't be relevant to most OTRS emails.
03:41 < dtm> i mean there should be some link to a table of contents
03:41 < dtm> a FAQ or something
03:41 < dtm> 4 realz
03:41 < Dcoetzee> dtm: Like this: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Policies_and_guidelines
03:41 < Dcoetzee> Maybe?
03:42 < dtm> Dcoetzee: so i'm curious if you think that my particular situation warrants having a senior individual, perhaps like your own fine self, to follow up with my OTRS volunteer deletionists, in matters of training.
03:42 < Dcoetzee> dtm: Let us see how the UR turns out first
03:42 < Dcoetzee> If the file is undeleted and the opinions of others are very clear, then a reprimand is in order.
03:42 < dtm> i had tried reading up on OTRS, and i had only gotten to the part about how to volunteer, which i may want to do
03:43 < dtm> Dcoetzee: no doubt.  but also it's already been a matter of overzealousness in any case.  deletion without prior or followup consultation is not acceptable.
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03:43 < dtm> that's just silent mutilation of a data set
03:43 < dtm> and here we've got articles with giant gaping holes
03:43 < Dcoetzee> dtm: Like I said, call me after the file's been undeleted. Timing is everything.
03:44 < dtm> well, okay.  but still.  that should never happen in any case.
03:44 < Dcoetzee> I will look dumb reprimanding them if the deletion is upheld.
03:44 < Dcoetzee> Even if they still erred in being so quick.
03:44 < dtm> i dont think there's anything dumb whatsoever about that.  that's a basic training issue <3
03:44 < dtm> but i'll do that
03:45 < dtm> and i told the guy that.  i said it's not always the individual's fault; it could be an organizational, policy, or training issue.  he ignored that too.
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03:45 < dtm> he was just bluntly out to stomp stuff
03:46 < Dcoetzee> On Wikipedia training is on-the-job.
03:46 < dtm> yeesh.
03:46 < Dcoetzee> It's the way it always has been. So let's see if this can be a learning experience.
03:46 < dtm> where the users can't hardly find out how to even escalate or report problems.
03:46 < Dcoetzee> Discoverability of appeal processes is an issue.
03:46 < dtm> ok i'll do that tomorrow and thanks for your time
03:46 < Dcoetzee> Okay, np, lemme know if you needhelp
03:47 < dtm> thaaaanx
03:48 < dtm> i will say that (other than ultimately totally blowing me off) he was polite though lol
03:48 < dtm> which i thanked him for, lol
03:49 < Dcoetzee> That's good to hear. Some Commoners are not polite, to say the least. :-P
03:49 < dtm> whew.
03:49 -!- JoFo_ [~Jean-Fran@host-213-213-224-210.brutele.be] has joined #wikipedia-en
03:49 < Dcoetzee> I've had accuse me of trying to destroy Commons, among other things
03:50 < Dcoetzee> *I've had some
03:50 < dtm> he acknowledged that the lack of notification and waiting process was a mistake -- but he refused to undelete it even during the discussion!
03:50 < dtm> so they shouldn't have done that, and he could undo it, but he wont.  wat.
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03:51 < Dcoetzee> dtm: Undeletion during pending discussions is fairly common at UR but not so much during individual discussions
03:51 < Dcoetzee> dtm: If you open a UR you have to specifically request that though
03:51 < dtm> k
03:51 < mareklug> Dcoetzee dtm http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Blackfeet_res._--_rockies.jpg      http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riserva_indiana_dei_Piedi_Neri    http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czarne_Stopy_(Siksika)     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackfeet_Indian_Reservation     http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserva_India_de_los_Blackfeet     http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Réserve_indienne_des_Blackfeet
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03:51 < Dcoetzee> mareklug: Looks good :-)
03:51 < Dcoetzee> I'll create Browning cat
03:52 < mareklug> Dcoetzee pls check my french :)
03:52 < Dcoetzee> Bien sur
03:52 < dtm> mareklug: i could edit that.  (straightening, definition, color warmth)
03:53 < dtm> but by golly, that sure *is* a fence.
03:53 < mareklug> dtm go for it.  it's a straight film scan w/o any correction.
03:53 < dtm> i'm sure it's not just any fence, somehow.
03:53 < Dcoetzee> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Browning,_Montana exists now
03:53 < mareklug> but i remember it looking *like that*
03:53 < mareklug> very hot and dry and white
03:53 < mareklug> thank you Dee
03:53 < dtm> mareklug: and kinda blue?
03:53 < mareklug> very very very very blue
03:53 < Dcoetzee> mareklug: What French
03:53 < dtm> mareklug: the ground and grass were blue huh
03:54 < Dcoetzee> Or was that figurative
03:54 < mareklug> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Réserve_indienne_des_Blackfeet
03:54 < Dcoetzee> Oh
03:54 < dtm> mareklug: well, who am i to mess with PERFECTION <3
03:54 < mareklug> dtm do your worst. erm best.  it's easy enough to revert to earlier version :) :) :)
03:55 < dtm> k
03:55 < DarwinS> Uh
03:55 < Dcoetzee> mareklug: Looks good to me. I wasn't sure if people say "juste avant" but checked and they do
03:55 < DarwinS> I'm on the swedish wikipedia and someone has done changes to an article multiple times, it's spam
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03:56 < DarwinS> When I try to undo the first change (1/4 or so) it says "Edit could not be undone due to conflicting intermediate edits."
03:56 < mareklug> I knewthey say avant, the juste was a fib.
03:56 < DarwinS> Any clue?
03:56 < Dcoetzee> DarwinS: That means you need to manual revert
03:56 < DarwinS> Can I do that? I'm a normal user
03:56 < DarwinS> Oh
03:56 < Dcoetzee> Yup anyone can
03:56 < DarwinS> Manually
03:56 < DarwinS> Damn
03:56 < Dcoetzee> Rollback can't do its thing because someone else edited inbetween their edits
03:56 < DarwinS> They really messed this article up
03:56 < Dcoetzee> Be careful to preserve their changes
03:57 < Dcoetzee> (of the someone else)
03:57 < DarwinS> It's just spam like "gay gay gay"
03:57 < DarwinS> Childish stuff
03:57 < Dcoetzee> Yup vandalism
03:57 < Dcoetzee> Lemme know if you need help
03:57 < Dcoetzee> I don't speak Swedish but can still revert it
03:57 < DarwinS> I just went to the earliest article before the spam
03:57 < DarwinS> Copy pasted it
03:58 < Dcoetzee> Okay I need to explain to you how to manual revert
03:58 < DarwinS> And pasted it in the spammed version of the article
03:58 < DarwinS> Yeah sure
03:58 < Dcoetzee> 1. View the version of the article you want to revert to, e.g. by clicking on the timestamp in the history
03:58 < Dcoetzee> (*not* the diff)
03:59 < Dcoetzee> 2. Click edit at the top. You will see the text of that version.
03:59 < Dcoetzee> 3. Enter an edit summary and click Save.
03:59 < Dcoetzee> That will save over the most recent version.
03:59 < Dcoetzee> No copy pasting is needed.
03:59 < elquanto> DarwinS: you can click on the time/date in history, "edit", ignore the warning, then "save"
04:00 < mareklug> dtm seriously, if you are going to do color correction, use the beer bottle for reference.  I think it is a well known brand.
04:00 < DarwinS> ah
04:00 < DarwinS> thanks Dcoetzee!
04:00 < Dcoetzee> Np :-)
04:00 < Dcoetzee> DarwinS: Make sure you check the history for any good edits that you accidentally reverted
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04:04 < DarwinS> yeah Dcoetzee
04:04 < DarwinS> will do
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04:27 < Dcoetzee> Does anyone recognise the font in this diagram? http://gyazo.com/c65eaecfa8688e5216ca962c293ba5dc
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04:28 < Bsadowski1> "SEOUL: North Korea reopened a Red Cross hotline with South Korea on Friday and invited officials from Seoul to talks over the weekend, a further sign the North wants to improve ties after a barrage of threats to wage war this year.
04:28 < Bsadowski1> "P
04:28 < Bsadowski1> :O
04:29 < Dcoetzee> Never mind, is Calibri
04:29 < Dcoetzee> Wooooo!
04:29 < Dcoetzee> NK not being dicks!
04:29 < Bsadowski1> No, this is bad. It's turning into the plot of Homefront.
04:29 < Bsadowski1> ><
04:29 < Bsadowski1> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homefront_%28video_game%29#Plot
04:30 < Bsadowski1> "In 2013, two years after the death of North Korean Supreme Leader Kim Jong-il (which, incidentally, came in December 2011, several months after the game's release, and the same year that it happened in-game), his son and successor, Kim Jong-un, reunites North and South Korea to form the Greater Korean Republic (GKR), a technological and economic global power."
04:32 < mareklug> Bsadowski1 any reunification would in reality sap South Korea's GDP and standard of living, rather diminishing its role as a "technological and economic power", so I don't share this fantasy.
04:32 < mareklug> see what happened to Germany on absorbtion of East Germany
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04:33 < kmh_> mareklug, : that makes no sense
04:34 < mareklug> kmh_ WHAT makes no sense?
04:34 < kmh_> your claim regarding unification
04:34 < BadDesign> Does Wikipedia use other formats for specifying coordinates in an article besides https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Coord ?
04:35 < Bsadowski1> mareklug
04:35 < Bsadowski1> " "We went to a very rigorous, academic research process to make sure to not only look at North Korea's current state but to look at historical examples how things could parallel and turn events. History repeats itself. From today to the day the invasion starts in the game, if you combine everything, the odds are very very slim this becomes true. But when you look at the storyline step by step, every step is a coin flip but a plausible step.
04:35 < Bsadowski1>  So once you get there, it's plausible. And from there the next step is plausible as well. Even though the whole thing is fictional, it comes with plausible baby steps."
04:35 < Bsadowski1> said the article
04:35 < mareklug> kmh_ but it is what took place with German reunification, so why do you say it makes no sense?  Do you realize the subsidy any reunification would entail on part of the wealthy Korea?
04:35 < kmh_> Koreas status as an economic power would probably stay the same and might increase slightly if handled smartly
04:35 < kmh_> mareklug, : no it is not what took place in German reunification
04:35 < mareklug> kmh who will pay to keep the North Koreans, i.e. subsidize them?
04:36 < mareklug> kmh_ yes it is.
04:36 < kmh_> mareklug, : aside from the subsidizing part
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04:36 < kmh_> mareklug, : no it's not
04:36 < mareklug> kmh_ there is no *aside from*.  It is the major cost.
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04:36 < mareklug> kmh http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/11/07/us-germany-wall-idUSTRE5A613B20091107
04:37 < mareklug> "Study shows high cost of German reunification: report'
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04:37 < mareklug> "Study shows high cost of German reunification: report"
04:37 < kmh_> mareklug, : yes but "major" cost doesn't necessarily "diminish its role as a "technological and economic power"
04:37 < mareklug> "(Reuters) - As Germany prepares to celebrate the 20th anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall, a new study shows that some 1.3 trillion euros ($1.9 trillion) have been transferred from the west to rebuild the east, a newspaper reported on Saturday."
04:37 < kmh_> mareklug, : i know the cost of German reunification
04:37 < mareklug> kmh of course it does.
04:38 < kmh_> no it doesn't
04:38 < mareklug> kmh and where do you think the money comes from?
04:38 < mareklug> who provided the 1.3 trillion euros?  God?
04:39 < mareklug> "The report by the Halle-based IWH research institute showed the net transfers from west to east -- a sum equivalent to over half Germany's total economic output in 2008 -- had "risen significantly" in the past decade, weekly Welt am Sonntag said."
04:39 < kmh_> mareklug,: it was divested from other things (having little or nothing to do with the role as technological or economically power
04:39 < mareklug> half of economic output in 2008.  that clearly put a brake on Germany's GDP and economic power for the time.
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04:39 < kmh_> mareklug, : how did it breal anything?
04:40 < mareklug> breal?
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04:40 < kmh_> did the German GDP shrink? Did its global or technological role change - no
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04:41 < mareklug> "The east has cast off many shackles from its Communist past, thanks partly to the transfers, but unemployment remains nearly double that of the west and economists say it is still years away from catching up with the richer part of the country."
04:41 < kmh_> mareklug, : you are making the mistake of taking for granted the redistributed money would have been created a additional technological and economic boom otherwise
04:42 < mareklug> and DDR was a wealthy country by comparison with DPRK
04:42 < kmh_> there is however no  real evidence for that i'm aware of
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04:42 < mareklug> kmh_ nonsense.  it always costs money to subsidize and takes away from growth
04:42 < kmh_> what you might argue it slightly lowered the living standard of west Germans
04:43 < mareklug> you can also borrow to cover that, driving up inflation.  it is what happened to Poland and USSR in the 1970s
04:43 < mareklug> no, I will argue that it severely diminiished the role of Germany as a world economic power for years.
04:43 < kmh_> but even that might be shaky to prive empirically as it overlaps with globalisation effects and an offset caused by debt
04:43 < mareklug> that Germany still is powerful is not the point.
04:43 < kmh_> mareklug, : no it doesn't
04:44 < mareklug> anyway, we are talking North Korea.  It is a money hole.
04:44 < kmh_> mareklug, : and what gives the idea the money wasn't used before for subsidizing other things?
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04:45 < kmh_> mareklug, : under its  current government yes
04:45 < kmh_> mareklug, : and you may argue that (your claim above) but i see no emprical evidence for that
04:47 < kmh_> and reunification would surely be a tough and expensive task on one hand, on the other hand Korea could learn from the German example and avoid its mistakes
04:47 < mareklug> kmh_ oh?  what epirical evidence do you see?  are there any large scale macroeconomic leverages that Korea can offer in reunification?  The food supply system alone is incredible expense to reform and get right.
04:47 < mareklug> kmh_ so there were mistakes now, eh?  why do you talk from both sides of you mouth?
04:48 < kmh_> i was talking about empirical evidence regarding the German example for your claim
04:48 < kmh_> mareklug, : of course there were mistakes, no undertaking of that size is without
04:49 < kmh_> the government running the unnification didn't exactly help either
04:50 < kmh_> mareklug, : as far as "both sides of the mouth" is concerned, the real world is grey not black & white
04:52 < mareklug> kmh_ let me put it bluntly:  there is nothing grey about reunified Korea.  It will cost a lot of GDP.
04:53 < kmh_> the question how well invested that money is
04:53 < kmh_> and whether it costs GDP remains to be seen
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04:54 < kmh_> that aside GDP is probably not the best measure anyhow
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05:31 < bitcoin_boy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivalism#1960s <-- Did they just skip over 1950s? Or was it not a "thing" yet in the 1950s because everyone did it?
05:31 < tommorris> bitcoin_boy: check the sources. ;)
05:32 < bitcoin_boy> ?
05:32 < tommorris> well, wikipedia articles are written based on what sources say
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05:33 < GorillaWarfare> bitcoin_boy: Didn't you ask that same question a day or two ago?
05:33 < tommorris> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retreat_(survivalism) - "While fallout shelters have been advocated since the 1950s, dedicated self-sufficient survivalist retreats have been advocated only since the mid-1970s."
05:33 < bitcoin_boy> WTF is this? "Ignore the question and be assholes" hour?
05:33 < GorillaWarfare> Whoa, I was just asking
05:33 < bitcoin_boy> Mid-1970s...
05:33 < tommorris> No, explain how you can answer your own question. You'd think someone into Bitcoin would be into self-sufficiency.
05:33 < bitcoin_boy> That's even later.
05:33 < GorillaWarfare> No need to be rude
05:34 < bitcoin_boy> What does it fucking matter if I asked this fucking question before, or 100 times before? What POSSIBLE difference could it make?
05:34 < bitcoin_boy> Clearly I did not get an ANSWER that time. Fucking idiot.
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05:35 < tommorris> Charming.
05:35 < tommorris> http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/02/13/survivalist-group-plans-to-build-citadel-in-idaho/ - "Survivalists first rose to prominence in the 1950s and 60s when many people across the U.S. built bomb shelters in their basements and backyards
05:35 < tommorris> Read more: http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/02/13/survivalist-group-plans-to-build-citadel-in-idaho/#ixzz2VX82YBbb
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05:35 < tommorris> my crack research skill of Googling "survivalism in the 1950s"
05:37  * GorillaWarfare headshakes
05:38 < jubo2> "Rhumpertine is made of low quality rhum and average quality terpentine. It is toxic, so ingesting it is strongly discouraged. Luckily for humans rhumpertine itself strongly induces vomiting so the toxins can exit your body should you have taken a swig despite it's toxic smell and aroma."
05:39 < wctaiwan> [20:32] <tommorris> well, wikipedia articles are written based on what sources say <- SUPPOSEDLY
05:41 < tommorris> wctaiwan: ideally.
05:41 < wctaiwan> I would argue you can't even say "usually" :|
05:41 < wctaiwan> sure, it's probably the case for our better articles, and the rest are obviously bad to a reader's eyes, but yeah.
05:42 < mareklug> dtm  to be fair to Pennies in Action I spied out 4 other donation by PayPal sites (good causes ®) and raided them in turn.
05:44 < mareklug> tommorris GorillaWarfare   I missed the invasion of MadPig/cheeseduck/ratface99 aka bitcoin_boy today (and a day ago)….
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05:44 < mareklug> a most unpleasant troll
05:45 < GorillaWarfare> Ah
05:45 < wctaiwan> ah, was thinking maybe he'd be that guy
05:45 < wctaiwan> but the hostmask was different.
05:46 < mareklug> it always is.  he uses any proxy he can get his juvenile delinquent USA-resident paws on
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05:47 < mareklug> jubo2 turpentine *
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05:57 < mareklug> Jetro that will be $2 USD please.
05:57 < Jetro> okay
05:58 < mareklug> PayPal is ok
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06:01 < Jetro> no
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06:02 < mareklug> no?  then how do you wish to render the $2 USD?
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06:02  * mareklug does not see any entries in the History calendar for today.
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06:02 < jubo2> 0.00274 bitcoins ?
06:02 < jubo2> à propos..
06:03  * mareklug does not know if 0.00274 bitcoins is worth squat, let alone Uncle Sam's 2 bits.
06:04 < jubo2> When I was doing mah military service I dreamt of a digital money that is atomic, distributedly minted and every coin contains the history of it's transactions.. bitcoin and that have incommon that they rely public key crytography
06:04 < QueenOfFrance> mareklug: the question is not whether it's worth something now, it's whether it will still worth that amung tomorrow (hin, no, it spiks up and down like crazy)
06:04 < QueenOfFrance> *amung=amount
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06:05 < jubo2> so the money is atomic so this causes that small change is more expensive then big coins so for 1000 x 0.01 coin you have to shell out a 10 coin and a 5 coin and a 2 coin or thereabouts
06:05 < jubo2> erm.. 0.5 coin
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06:06 < ThePoster62> http://ibooter.us || http://ibooter.info Join us !
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06:06 < mareklug> 0.32 cents is what 0.00274 bitcoins is worth today, according to http://coinmill.com/BTC_USD.html#BTC=0.00274
06:06 < mareklug> that is NOT TWO DOLLARS
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06:07 < jubo2> mareklug: yeah.. sry about that.. my figure was just a dreamt up number
06:07 < jubo2> I could gone to ##econmics and request econbot to give me USD exchange rate and then dunn the math in python shell.. too lazy
06:11 < mareklug> 2 bits are 0.02 bitcoin.  http://coinmill.com/BTC_USD.html#USD=2.00
06:12 < mareklug> QueenOfFrance I'd rather be paid in PC-compatible formatted Zip100 disks (unopened, still in shrink wrap) to be honest.
06:13 < mareklug> Jetro got any zip100 disks
06:13 < mareklug> ?
06:14 < Jetro> I don't know what they are
06:14 < mareklug> you're pretty ignorant for a Norwegian
06:14 < Jetro> mir
06:15 < mareklug> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zip_drive
06:15 < mareklug> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zip-100a-transparent.png   <-- this
06:16 < mareklug> http://rubenerd.com/uploads/photo.zipdrive.jpg   <-- in boxes, next to a zip drive
06:17 < QueenOfFrance> mareklug: I take it's for your mac restore project?
06:17 < mareklug> QueenOfFrance yes.
06:18 < mareklug> I am implementing a back up network of the Sneaker mail variety.
06:18 < mareklug> it's in case the comcast people turn off the network
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06:19 < mareklug> actually, a zip100 disk has the nice property that any macintosh file on it will arrive at its destination unmolested, complete with its data and resource fork, creator and kind attributes, etcetera.  Assuming the disk was formatted as an HFS volume.
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06:22 < mareklug> QueenOfFrance 	
06:22 < mareklug> Iomega 100mb Zip Disk (Set of 3)
06:22 < mareklug> 261223089860 - Price: US $0.99  + $2.50 shipping
06:23 < mareklug> how is that for a bargain?  they are new.
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06:24 < tommorris> mareklug: so will an HFS formatted DMG with a checksum.
06:24 < mareklug> tommorris no.
06:24 < mareklug> tommorris have you forgotten that Apple changed the implementation of DMG at least twice?
06:25 < mareklug> Jaguar 10.2 will NOT open a dmg from later OS versions such as Mountain Lion
06:25 < tommorris> Okay. Simple solution: don't use Jaguar. It's fucking old.
06:25 < mareklug> tommorris you are not very helpful.  I am using not just Jaguar but Macintoshes that predate Jaguar by 10-15 years.
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06:26 < mareklug> and zip disks will work for them all.
06:26 < mareklug> including the upcoming 2013 Mac Book Pro
06:26 < mareklug> any mac post-Apple II can mount an HFS file system.  period.
06:26 < mareklug> QED.
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06:30 < rancidJHA> hi
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06:33 < a930913> Lo.
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06:36 < mareklug> QueenOfFrance my newest self-authored contribution to Wikimedia Commons  http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Blackfeet_res._--_rockies.jpg
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06:37 < Bradford> o_O
06:37 -!- JustABot is now known as JustTheBot
06:38 < Bradford> hey JustTheBot
06:38 < Bradford> help
06:38 < Bradford> ?
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06:48 < LtNOWIS-mobile> 5 more hours of work
06:48 < LtNOWIS-mobile> Man I'm tired
06:48 < Dcoetzee> LtNOWIS-mobile: Hang in there :-)
06:49 < LtNOWIS-mobile> Thanks!
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06:52 < a930913> Remind me again, why don't we have an edit filter on '''Bold text''' and the like?
06:52 < LtNOWIS-mobile> Dunno.
06:53 < Dcoetzee> Cause there are legitimate reasons to bold things and not many vandals use it?
06:53 < a930913> Dcoetzee: As in the text "bold text" too.
06:54 < Dcoetzee> Oh
06:54 < Dcoetzee> Not all such edits are bad but it is a good idea to warn them to remove the test text
06:54 < Dcoetzee> And flag it for review
06:55 < Dcoetzee> With the current editor on the way out though that rule might be short lived
06:57 < a930913> "Please vandalise our 'pedia to boost statistics" even though they are not constructive edits? :/
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07:02 < tommorris> there probably ought to be an edit filter for that
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07:19 < Chris_G> <a930913> Remind me again, why don't we have an edit filter on '''Bold text''' and the like?
07:19 < Chris_G> there is a bot that looks for those kinds of edits and reverts them
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08:28 < russavia> mattbuck you around? need your help
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08:37 < Soapy> what would you rather have: a lifetime unlimited supply of bad coffee and not be able to drink anything else? or to give up coffee entierly?
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08:38 < wctaiwan> Soapy: would you like your left foot amputated or your right arm? :/
08:39 < Soapy> easy choice: i dont masturbate with my feet
08:40 < TheDruId> I've had coffee fewer than a dozen times in my life, so give it up entirely.
08:40 < Soapy> well either Im a moron or the coffee maker we have here is malfunctioning
08:41 < Soapy> but to me, I'd rather have that than no coffee at all
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08:44 < LtNOWIS-mobile> Wow, lots of WP:ITN/C fireworks this month
08:44 < wctaiwan> Soapy: ….nice, unexpected answer XD
08:44 < wctaiwan> didn't thin you'd be the sort to say that.
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08:56 < Soapy> anyone e lse get a PM from Farero?
08:56 < JohnLewis> Soapy: Nope
08:56 < Soapy> ok
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08:58 < Qcoder00> ITN/C?
08:59 < TheDruId> Yes.
08:59 < TheDruId> Soapy, :56, yes.
09:01 < Soapy> o he was probably just shy then
09:01 < Qcoder00> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_%28surveillance_program%29 Doesn't suprise me
09:01 < Theo10011> that was a scary revelation^
09:01 < Qcoder00> What would have suprised me is the Brits were NOT listening
09:02 < Qcoder00> "huh,Huh Boris, I don't see why the Americans are worried,  Comradr Commisar ALWAYS heard OUR Pollitical jokes..!"
09:02 < Qcoder00> ;)
09:03 < TheDruId> When I was working, rerouting everything through British proxies so their intel could peek was the default non-action.
09:04 < Qcoder00> In Russia , you track internet usage,   In America , internet usage tracks you!
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09:04 < Soapy> so America is the new "Soviet Russia" ?
09:04 < Qcoder00> Possibly
09:04 < Theo10011> The NY times had something about it today.....
09:04 < Theo10011> The NSA said it wasn't being done with Americans
09:04 < Theo10011> and mostly foriegners
09:05 < Qcoder00> Theo10011 : "And in other news Nixon is still dead..."
09:05 < Theo10011> I was wondering if this will get mixed up with EU privacy laws at some point
09:05 < Qcoder00> Hah
09:05 < TheDruId> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON
09:05 < Qcoder00> The EU was pushing for tracking data retention anyway
09:06 < Theo10011> It certainly makes the Chinese survaillance look like a joke.
09:06 < Qcoder00> be rather embrassing if they object to the US obtaining similar data, when they want firms in the US to retain it
09:06 < Theo10011> and the fact they've been doing it for 6-7 years
09:06 < Theo10011> without anyone noticing
09:07 < Qcoder00> Meaning they could have seen inteligence about Wikileaks, about the Arab Springs, certain Cyber attacks.. Anonymous etc...
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09:07 < Qcoder00> and Boston
09:07 < Theo10011> Well, wikileaks was using a lot of encryption to transfer data and not using any of the listed services.
09:07 < Qcoder00> True
09:07 < Theo10011> The arab spring, didn't involve the US. They were just monitoring
09:08 < Theo10011> for the most part
09:08 < Qcoder00> 7 years ago?
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09:08 < Theo10011> Anonymous and cyber attacks would be too low key to risk exposing this.
09:08 < NotASpy> russavia: this is funny as fuck. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%3AJimbo_Wales&diff=558774233&oldid=558773730
09:08 < Theo10011> I meant the revolts in egypt etc.
09:08 < NotASpy> genuinely has brightened my day no end.
09:09 < Qcoder00> true, but a high profile  security breach like McKinon's would have turned heads...
09:09 < Theo10011> heh
09:09 < Theo10011> Qcoder00, this really kicks the liberals in the balls who supported Obama.
09:09 < Theo10011> He has been such a disappointment
09:09 < Qcoder00> "Doy You Trust Your Government?"
09:10 < Theo10011> I don't trust myself, let alone the gummint!
09:10 < Qcoder00> I wonder ... Has Alex Jones said anything beyond his normal stuff about this?
09:11 < NotASpy> Qcoder00: absolutely not, I wouldn't trust Cameron, Clegg and Osborne as far as I could kick them before my shoes fall off.
09:12 < AlexJFox_> I wouldn't give Cameron or Osbourne the steam from my piss
09:12 < AlexJFox_> and Clegg is just impotent
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09:13 < Qcoder00> In the US you get to here about the buggers...
09:13 < Qcoder00> In the Uk, you don't
09:13 < Qcoder00> :(
09:13 < Qcoder00> And yes some of the buggers in the UK can be very "Liberal"  about what they do without revealing anything
09:13 < Theo10011> UK has intelliegence capabilities!?
09:14 < Qcoder00> MI5 and GCHQ are world leads in certain signals intelligence work
09:14  * David_Stevenson wonders if they used it
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09:14 < NotASpy> Theo10011: yes. See [[RAF Menwith Hill]] which is where ECHELON is run from.
09:14 < Qcoder00> Besides that the Feds were watching Internet traffic and social media does NOT suprise me at all
09:15 < Qcoder00> The denials from the companies are reasonable...
09:15 < Qcoder00> Some of the companies might not even know they've been being intercepted...
09:15 < Theo10011> NotASpy, it seems capable of signal interception mostly.
09:15 < Theo10011> The Prism program on the other hand
09:15 < Theo10011> is the closest thing to Big Brother
09:15 < Theo10011> as possible
09:16 < Qcoder00> If AP can't figure out how the Whitehouse tweet hoax got into the system, I somehow doubt they'd be able to find out how a sophisticated Federal body has been intercepting them
09:16 < Theo10011> I was wondering what my gmail inbox would have - from bank records, to business discussions to personal letters to my travel history to the medication I might have taken.
09:16 < Theo10011> Add skype to that
09:16 < Theo10011> it's most of my existence being mined
09:17 < Qcoder00> I don't do finance or medical stuff on line
09:17 < mareklug> Theo10011 cut out the hysterics.  Big Brother…  It's jsut a pervassive, all-encompassing communications gathering/filtering/sifting operation.  Big Brother was considerably more nasty.  Re-read your Orwell.
09:17 < Theo10011> Well your bank never emails you?
09:17 < Theo10011> they send me statements even against my will.
09:17 < Qcoder00> No
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09:17 < Qcoder00> My bank never e-mails me
09:17 < Theo10011> well, its mandatory here.
09:17 < David_Stevenson> bank records by e-mail? If I ever got sensative e-mail from a bank, once I got information from it, I'd delete that e-mail
09:17 < David_Stevenson> only a dope would keep it
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09:17 < NotASpy> Theo10011: I'd doubt MI5/GCHQ are too involved with Prism, there's not much in the way of global social media servers based in the UK and there's not a massive amount of traffic routed through the UK.
09:18 < mareklug> Theo10011 here the banks communicate internally via their Secure Messaging centers accessible to you upon login
09:18 < Qcoder00> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%3AJimbo_Wales&diff=558776898&oldid=558774233
09:18 < Qcoder00> Was I correct in reverting?
09:18 < Theo10011> The joke of it would be all the marketing google and microsoft spend about protecting your privacy.
09:18 < Theo10011> It would be a joke to claim their information is secure.
09:18 < Qcoder00> I can't leave a warning on the users page as it's apparently protected..
09:19 < Theo10011> Qcoder00, you are not the first to revert.
09:19 < Theo10011> I would wait and watch what happens. :P
09:19 < Qcoder00> Time for a block?
09:19 < TheDruId> Qcoder00, previously reverted with a justifiable edit summary. Seems the right thing to do.
09:19 < mareklug> Theo10011 Apple claimed it knows nothing of PRISM and makes nothing available to the Feds on their own servers.  And the Feds in turn have complained recently that iMessages is too secure for them to crack it (this is routine police/FBI)
09:20 < Theo10011> mareklug, but banks do have an email on file, they have to have. And with the recent green initiatives, sending e-statements is cheaper for some.
09:20 < Theo10011> mareklug, ya, everyone claimed that they know nothing of Prism.
09:20 < Theo10011> and their end is secured.
09:20 < mareklug> Theo10011 Again, these statements are sent internally to the Secure Messaging center.
09:20 < Theo10011> But there must be a loophole some where.
09:20 < NotASpy> bank statements are the least of your problems - the Feds have all that information anyway, as they have good levels of access to financial transaction databases.
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09:21 < NotASpy> they wouldn't need to even think about poking around in your inbox to compile the same info you have on your bank statement.
09:21 < mareklug> Theo10011 Look.  I have a bank in Evanston, and chain gang national banks to boot beside that.  nobody sends me statements or any sensitive info via email.  You must mean your stupid India banks.
09:22 < mareklug> I MAY get an email message that I have a secure message waiting for me.
09:22 < NotASpy> they're pulling much more succinct information out of e-mails, and pulling useful stuff like GPS data from FB posts. They're building up a picture of your life, they know you buy a Starbucks on the way to work every morning and they know you ride the Underground, but they're more interested in what you say or do between the tube station and Starbucks.
09:24 < NotASpy> they're looking to see who is using the internet from the same locations, from the same cell towers, posting from the same GPS locations, that sort of stuff. They're using this data to join the dots, to track you 24/7, basically.
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09:24 < Qcoder00> Like if you've spoken to  Jones the Bomb  at the mosque....
09:24 < Qcoder00> ;)
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09:25 < NotASpy> or rather, if you keep ending up in the same places as Jones the Bomb, i.e at the football, the cinema, that sort of thing. It's largely automated and all about flagging up interesting people to keep a closer eye on first.
09:25 < Theo10011> lol
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09:25 < Theo10011> See they are creating a giant database with all these sets of data.
09:25 < Theo10011> When they have a suspected whatever, they will see who he interacts with.
09:25 < Qcoder00> Hah, They could just ask Tesco
09:25 < Qcoder00> XD
09:26 < Theo10011> Adn then it would all connect.
09:26 < Theo10011> LOL
09:26 < NotASpy> Qcoder00: don't think they don't know who's not buying pork sausages down your local TESCOs already.
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09:26 < Qcoder00> Well i was thinking more along the lines of people buying HUGE amounts of  Bleach
09:27 < Theo10011> heh, reminds me of the 3 items at walmart game
09:27 < Theo10011> http://www.buzzfeed.com/kmallikarjuna/lets-play-the-walmart-game
09:27 < Qcoder00> At least in the UK you can't buy ammo at tesco
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09:28 < NotASpy> Qcoder00: chemical suppliers aren't daft, they usually have a range of graduates working for them in technical and sales roles, they simply phone the police when someone tries to buy something they shouldn't.
09:28 < Qcoder00> Theo10011:  There's a Charles Adams...
09:29 < PinkAmpersand> James_F: around? i've got a WMF question
09:29 < NotASpy> Tesco will do the same, they'll report suspicious activity, bad for business if they don't.
09:30 < Qcoder00> Theo10011: There's a Charles Adams Cartoon of a person in a 40's era Hardware store... "So let me get this straight, you want 2 spring loaded rifles, rifle cartridges, a barrallel of quick lime a shovel, a deck chair and a box of cigars?"
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09:30 < Theo10011> hehe
09:31 < NotASpy> but the fact remains you wouldn't be using a Clubcard when buying bomb making kit from TESCO, no need for £2 of your next purchase of fertilizer or bleach when you're tucked up with your quota of virgins in the next life...
09:31 < Qcoder00> Manufacturing explosive from Fertilizer is harder in the UK than you think...
09:31 < NotASpy> It's really not.
09:32 < Qcoder00> During the 'Troubles' the Britisih Governmet got fertilizer firms to change the formulation of some Agricultural Fertilizer precisely because the PIRA had been using it a precusor
09:32 < Theo10011> Let's not go too much in to the detail there please.
09:32 < Qcoder00> Does Wikipedia?
09:32 < Theo10011> Remember this channel might still be getting logged.
09:33 < NotASpy> Theo10011: of course it's getting logged. The CIA/NSA/FBI are logging us, remember.
09:33 < Theo10011> Well they are prob. also logging GNAA
09:33 < Soapy> lol
09:33 < Soapy> log the loggers
09:34 < NotASpy> they'll be pulling out logs of everything on IRC, PMs and all.
09:34 -!- svenryen [~svenryen@182.55.78.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
09:35 < NotASpy> that made everybody go quiet.
09:35 < Theo10011> We should all think twice before typing anything on our keyboards anymore.
09:35 < Theo10011> Thank you 'mehrica!
09:36 < a930913> Any chrome users on?
09:36 < NotASpy> Meh, you can walk into a book store or public library and find enough information to make explosive. Hell, the BBC did a cracking documentary about it a year or so ago. Well worth watching incidently, as it'll put you off even thinking about this stuff for life.
09:37 < Qcoder00> Theo10011: They want use to think twice about opposing the New World Order? XD
09:37 < NotASpy> grab this next time it's on iPlayer. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00v9kb3
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09:39 < PinkAmpersand> a930913: guilty as charge
09:39 < PinkAmpersand> d
09:39 < JohnLewis> a930913: Yes?
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09:40 < NotASpy> Qcoder00 and others interested in PRISM/GCHQ: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22813893
09:40 < NotASpy> they've been spying on us Brits too.
09:40 < Qcoder00> That isn't news
09:41 < PinkAmpersand> NotASpy: U.S. Government is allowed to spy on foreign nationals without a warrant
09:41 < Qcoder00> May was pusing for a Snoopers Charter to legalise it anyway
09:41 < PinkAmpersand> (at least, on foreign soil)
09:41 -!- Jasper_Deng_away is now known as Jasper_Deng
09:41 < NotASpy> PinkAmpersand: yeah, that's why they use Menwith Hill and other overseas bases.
09:42 < Qcoder00> So America knows all about the conversations the Duke of Edinburugh has with his Tailors?
09:42 < PinkAmpersand> well, everyone does it. France and Israel spy on the U.S. like crazy.
09:42 < a930913> PinkAmpersand: JohnLewis: Alpha test WAVE?
09:42 < PinkAmpersand> And I say that as someone very pro-Israel and pro-France. :P
09:42 < JohnLewis> a930913: Hm?
09:42 < a930913> JohnLewis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:A930913/wave
09:42 < Soapy> lol he doesnt even know what wave is
09:43 < PinkAmpersand> Version 27.0.1453.76 beta
09:43 < PinkAmpersand> Platform 3912.52.0 (Official Build) beta-channel x86-alex
09:43 < PinkAmpersand> Firmware Alex.03.61.0735.0056G3.0021
09:43 -!- Rcsprinter [~rcsprinte@wikipedia/Rcsprinter123] has quit [Quit: later]
09:43 < Qcoder00> How much tracking of users is done on Wikipedia?
09:43 < PinkAmpersand> ohhh nvm lol
09:43 < Qcoder00> I mean it's possible to build up a detailed picture of people from Wiki edit patterns and policy rows
09:43 < a930913> Qcoder00: Wikipedia tracks even the things you /don't/ look at.
09:43 < JohnLewis> Soapy: For the past few months I have not tracked anything on enwiki.
09:44 < Soapy> its OK I dont think WAVE is well known on-wiki either
09:44 < Soapy> Ive only heard about it from IRC
09:44 < Qcoder00> Q: Has the WMF ever got requests from law enforcment for user details?
09:44 < a930913> Soapy: I haven't really told anyone yet.
09:44 < PinkAmpersand> a930913: umm will i wind up destroying the wiki?
09:44 < a930913> Only those who hear it on IRC from my semi-frequent testing requests.
09:44 < Qcoder00> In other words has WMF ever been asked to 'out' people?
09:44 -!- Dcoetzee [~Dcoetzee@wikimedia/Dcoetzee] has joined #wikipedia-en
09:44 < Soapy> qvoder almost certainly
09:44 < a930913> PinkAmpersand: I hope not :/
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09:44 < Soapy> it probably happens at least once a month
09:44 < Qcoder00> Does WMF publish when it gets a request?
09:45 < Qcoder00> Like Google posts certain requests to Chilling Effects
09:45 < PinkAmpersand> Qcoder00: well they have to comply with any valid court order
09:45 < PinkAmpersand> and they publish DMCAs, which I think can turn into subpoenas for CheckUser information
09:45 < PinkAmpersand> lol I know. sometimes I use Chilling Effects to find good bootlegs :D
09:45 < PinkAmpersand> a930913: sure, I'll give it a whirl
09:46 < PinkAmpersand> oh, I use monobook, not vector. will that be a problem?
09:47 < a930913> PinkAmpersand: Well, it's a test. You tell me :p
09:47 < a930913> PinkAmpersand: (I think it should work.)
09:48 < PinkAmpersand> a930913: ok, now where's the interface? :P
09:48 < Ironholds> Qcoder00: yes, we do, on chilling effects.
09:48 < Qcoder00> Thanks
09:48 < a930913> PinkAmpersand: The link under the section "running".
09:49 -!- martijnHH [~MartijnH@wikipedia/Martijn-Hoekstra] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
09:49 < a930913> Though I'll probably add one to the toolbox oe soon.
09:49 < Qcoder00> I hear Wikivoyage will have to change it's logo
09:49 < PinkAmpersand> hmm? what section?
09:49 < GorillaWarfare> Qcoder00: heh, I saw that
09:49 < Dcoetzee> Qcoder00: As far as I know all valid DMCA requests received by WMF are sent to Chilling Effects
09:50 < Qcoder00> WTO enforcing a trademark they own apparently
09:50 < mareklug> change logo?  why?  ATT sues?  and change to what?
09:50 < PinkAmpersand> Dcoetzee: they're also published on wmf.org
09:50 < mareklug> that red V was nice to my linking, and they went ahead with the silly globe with wrapped arrows...
09:50 < PinkAmpersand> except not "World Monuments Fund.org" :P
09:50 < Dcoetzee> Most DMCA takedowns predictably enough are actually valid
09:51 < Dcoetzee> Or at least possibly valid
09:51 < PinkAmpersand> mareklug: but that's not the WMF Visual Identity
09:51 < Dcoetzee> We have a lot of copyvios
09:51 < GorillaWarfare> I like the current logo, but I do agree that it's very similar to the other one, haha.
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09:51 < mareklug> WMF visual identity is crufty logos, eh?
09:51 < Dcoetzee> I did contest at least one DMCA request
09:51 < PinkAmpersand> well, of course, you /can/ counter-file, but most DMCA claims are against single-purpose accounts
09:51 < Qcoder00> Dcoetzee:  I've been finding less of them
09:51 < a930913> PinkAmpersand: https://tools.wmflabs.org/cluestuff/cgi-bin/wave/index.py
09:51 < PinkAmpersand> mareklug: i like that logo. :P
09:51 < Dcoetzee> PinkAmpersand: WMF accepts counter-files from any Wikipedia user
09:51 < PinkAmpersand> ah
09:51 < Dcoetzee> Doesn't have to be the user that added the information
09:52 < Dcoetzee> Don't ask me about the legality of that practice
09:52 < Qcoder00> But NPG images of pre 19th century art are not copyvio;)
09:52 < Dcoetzee> I'm not referring to that case :-) They never sent a DMCA takedown believe it or not
09:53 < Dcoetzee> Apparently their lawyers were too clueless to figure out how to write one
09:53 < PinkAmpersand> a930913: cool. lot of stuff that doesn't work, but cool :)
09:53 < Qcoder00> Maybe for Wikimania 2014 , you should take pictures of the Porticio ;)
09:53 < GorillaWarfare> Any Commons admins here?
09:53 < Qcoder00> Actually, for WM2014 is there a plan to get a Lot of Photos of London Landmarks?
09:53 < Dcoetzee> GorillaWarfare: Here
09:53 < GorillaWarfare> Dcoetzee: Do you have OTRS access?
09:53 < a930913> PinkAmpersand: What doesn't work?
09:53 < Dcoetzee> Yeah
09:54 -!- rr0 [~rr0@wikipedia/ruslik0] has joined #wikipedia-en
09:54 < GorillaWarfare> Dcoetzee: Do you mind undeleting the images at 2013060710007338
09:54 < a930913> PinkAmpersand: You might be interested in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:ValidateUP btw.
09:54 < PinkAmpersand> a930913: tried opening the history tab and it didn't work :P
09:54 < Qcoder00> Dcoetzee:  Is it even possible to file a DMCA takedown out of state? XD
09:54 < Dcoetzee> Qcoder00: The DMCA counter-file I filed was regarding this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Instruments_signing_key_controversy
09:54 < Dcoetzee> Sure, any party in the world can file a DMCA takedown. However only US based organizations are bound by law to comply with them.
09:54 < a930913> PinkAmpersand: The links in the page don't usually work.
09:55 < a930913> Use the links around the page.
09:55 < Dcoetzee> GorillaWarfare: Let me take a look
09:55 < PinkAmpersand> ahh ok
09:55 < a930913> The history is on the top right.
09:55 -!- JZTech101 [~jztech101@c-24-0-88-174.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #wikipedia-en
09:55 < a930913> Over there you have the user's contributions, the page history and the warnings the user has.
09:55 < PinkAmpersand> a930913: think i'll pass for now, but it looks cool! :)
09:55 < a930913> PinkAmpersand: Do you CV much? (Huggle?)
09:56 < PinkAmpersand> just Twinkle
09:56 < PinkAmpersand> can't run Huggle on ChromeOS
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09:56 < Dcoetzee> GorillaWarfare: You're pretty confident that the person giving permission there is authorized as an agent of Gregorysung to do so?
09:57 < a930913> PinkAmpersand: Oh, so you're the perfect target for a web based CV tool :)
09:58 < GorillaWarfare> Dcoetzee: Yes. We've been discussing in -en-help; she says that he's the one who wants the images up there, and her email address backs up who she says she is.
09:58 < Dcoetzee> Okay, as long as she's authorized
09:58 < Dcoetzee> GorillaWarfare: restored
09:58 < PinkAmpersand> a930913: yeah, but i like to do it oldschool :P
09:58 -!- Jetro [~UserNick@53.211.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)]
09:58 < PinkAmpersand> i just patrol newbie contribs and NewPages from time to time :P
09:59 < GorillaWarfare> Dcoetzee: Awesome :) Are you adding the OTRS templates or shall I?
09:59 < Dcoetzee> Please do so for me :-)
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09:59 < Dcoetzee> GorillaWarfare: Can I assume Gregorysung's organization also possesses copyright to the photos and not just the sculptures?
10:00 -!- addaway is now known as addfood
10:00 < GorillaWarfare> Dcoetzee: Yes: <WPhelp-483> we own the images, the images were made by us, so we should not have any problems at all should we/
10:01 < Dcoetzee> Okay great. @GorillaWarfare, please add any relevant info from IRC not already described in the ticket to the ticket
10:01 < Dcoetzee> For future reference
10:01 < GorillaWarfare> Yep, can do
10:01 -!- FastLizard4|zZzZ is now known as FastLizard4
10:01 < Dcoetzee> Great :-)
10:02  * Dcoetzee sighs and facepalms at rumored 41-megapixel cameraphone
10:02 < Dcoetzee> Why do people want resolution that far exceeds the diffraction limit of their lenses
10:04 < FastLizard4> Dcoetzee: Because people who know nothing about photography just go "OMG TEH MEGAPIXELS"
10:04 < mareklug> explain the diffraction limit thing
10:04 < mareklug> couldn't I conceivably hook up a 41-megapixel sensor even to a pinhole camera?
10:04 < Dcoetzee> Yes but the effective resolution would be much lower
10:05 < Dcoetzee> The issue is that due to the effects of diffraction, the airy disc or circle of confusion becomes large relative to the pixel size
10:05 < Dcoetzee> When you look at the image at 100% zoom, it will appear to be slightly blurred throughout
10:06 < mareklug> already does on my 10-megapixel el cheapo 1040 Olympus
10:06 < Dcoetzee> This effect normally only appears at tiny apertures, but as resolution goes up you start to see it even when the lens is wide open
10:06 < Dcoetzee> http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/diffraction-photography.htm Here's a good page on diffraction
10:06 < Dcoetzee> (with respect to cameras)
10:07 < Dcoetzee> More to the point, cameraphones have plastic lenses
10:07 < Dcoetzee> Which are full of defects
10:08 < Dcoetzee> It leads to uneven focus over the field of view, which also places practical limits on resolution.
10:08 < Dcoetzee> You're just not going to get better than maybe 12 MP out of a cameraphone lens no matter how many pixels the sensor has. In fact, the more pixels it has, the less area is dedicated to photon reception, which leads to poor low light performance.
10:09 < mareklug> Dcoetzee wait, i thought iPhone was supposed to have saphire lenses
10:10 < Dcoetzee> Saphire? Like the gemstone?
10:10 < Dcoetzee> Or is that their trendy brand name?
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10:11 < mareklug> no, really.  it may be synthethic.  but anyway, some even alleged that it tinted their pictures blue :) :)'
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10:12 < ThePoster56> Want to take someone offline Friends, Game Servers, Website? Join iBooter ! ibooter.us | ibooter.info
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10:12 < Qcoder00> ^ops - Spam!
10:12 -!- mode/#wikipedia-en [+o QueenOfFrance] by ChanServ
10:12 -!- mode/#wikipedia-en [+b *!*@212.150.184.*] by QueenOfFrance
10:12 -!- mode/#wikipedia-en [-o QueenOfFrance] by ChanServ
10:12 < QueenOfFrance> Qcoder00: yeah like the third time it's happeend
10:12 < Jasper_Deng> a /24
10:12 < mareklug> Dcoetzee "Sapphire Crystal: Although the surface of the iSight camera is as clear as glass, it’s not made of glass. It’s actually sapphire crystal, whose hardness is second only to diamond on the scale of transparent materials. That means the surface of the lens is far less likely to scratch."  http://www.apple.com/iphone/design/
10:13 < Theo10011> Queeny is too dang fast!
10:13 < Qcoder00> Ninja
10:13 < Qcoder00> ;)
10:13 < Qcoder00> They train chanops in a special facility
10:13 < Theo10011> :S
10:14  * Theo10011 bawls for never being held at the facility!
10:14 < QueenOfFrance> Theo10011: said facility is known as "irssi HQ"
10:15 < Dcoetzee> mareklug: Sounds like a thin sapphire coating to me :-P
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10:15 < Dcoetzee> Still antiscratch coatings are nice
10:15 < Dcoetzee> Plastic scratches like crazy
10:15 < mareklug> Dcoetzee you think they would put plastic elements in a series behind that?  I doubt it
10:15 < PinkAmpersand> QueenOfFrance: no prison planet, à la /Dune/?
10:15 < Dcoetzee> mareklug: Okay so it's probably glass
10:16 < Dcoetzee> I'd believe that in a high end iPhone camera
10:16 < QueenOfFrance> PinkAmpersand: well I bet some in here would argue that anything known as irssi HQ is a prison planet
10:16 < mareklug> Dcoetzee you know that ppl have gotten Oscars for documentaries shot with iPhone? :)
10:16 < Dcoetzee> I heard that yes, and I've seen pros do good shots with it
10:16 < Dcoetzee> And I've seen the accessories for it.
10:16 < Dcoetzee> Attachable lenses and such
10:17 < Dcoetzee> It's not terrible. But at the end of the day it still has a tiny sensor which limits its practical low light sensitivity.
10:17 < Dcoetzee> (as well as achievable resolution and aperture range)
10:17 < mareklug> Dcoetzee so you would not be necc. opposed to increasing the megapixels of iPhone's sensor. :)
10:17 < Dcoetzee> mareklug: It would still be quite pointless
10:18 -!- jorm [~bharris@wikimedia/jorm] has joined #wikipedia-en
10:18 < Dcoetzee> Just not *as* pointless as with a crappy lens
10:18 -!- jorm [~bharris@wikimedia/jorm] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
10:18 < Dcoetzee> The lens is no longer the primary limiter, it's now diffraction and small sensor size
10:18 < mareklug> I assume there is a happy engineering medium somewehre there
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10:19 -!- m_ke [~m_ke@cpe-108-182-20-11.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #wikipedia-en
10:19 < mareklug> of course, Apple could deign to allow the iPhone to outsource its optics to a larger camera. :)
10:20 < Dcoetzee> They already make Bluetooth memory cards for DSLRs and such that talk to your smartphone :-P
10:20 -!- anona [~z31fcs@99-90-197-87.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
10:20 < Dcoetzee> One thing I am excited about though
10:20 < Dcoetzee> Is we're seeing a convergence of MILCs and smartphones
10:21 < Dcoetzee> MILCs have large sensors and interchangeable high quality lenses
10:21 < mareklug> MILC?
10:21 < Ricardio> Those who are in Virgina Beach, they're under a tornado warning.
10:21 < Dcoetzee> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirrorless_interchangeable-lens_camera
10:21 < mareklug> oh yeah
10:23 -!- FLHerne [~quassel@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
10:23 < Dcoetzee> I personally would seriously consider a MILC phone, even if it were expensive. It's kind of an all-in-one thing.
10:23 -!- m_ke [~m_ke@cpe-108-182-20-11.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
10:24 < mareklug> but it has to play CDs and DVDs too. :)
10:24 -!- Alchimista [~alchimist@wikipedia/Alchimista] has joined #wikipedia-en
10:25 < Dcoetzee> Who buys those anymore? :-P
10:25 < Dcoetzee> Can stream them over wireless ;-)
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10:31 < mareklug> Dcoetzee it's for those of us who have 100s of them.  from years and years of collecting.
10:31 < Dcoetzee> And haven't ripped them yet, apparently
10:31 < Dcoetzee> :-P
10:31 < mareklug> the Rolling Stone dude says he has no iPod and only favors CDs (and vinyl)
10:31 < Dcoetzee> I still use physical discs for Blurays though
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10:32 < mareklug> with haswell and lightning 20 you will be able to stream those too
10:32 < Dcoetzee> I've heard people make silly claims about vinyl sounding better than digital, but surely you're not going to claim the bits sound better coming off a disc :-P
10:32 < mareklug> especially on the low end.  the vinyl bottoms out near 40 Hz
10:33 < Dcoetzee> http://www.theverge.com/2012/9/20/3353686/connected-cameras-at-photokina-2012/in/3109719 Btw, good article "Android, apps, and Wi-Fi: why your next phone may be a camera"
10:33 < Dcoetzee> About the ongoing convergence of cameras and phones
10:34 < Dcoetzee> The Samsung Galaxy Camera is an actual hybrid
10:34 < Dcoetzee> It is a P&S that runs Android
10:35 < Dcoetzee> And has 3G/4G connectivity
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10:36  * Jasper_Deng would think Dcoetzee knows the bit is the ultimate indivisible particle of information.
10:37 < GingerGeek> woops just did /list
10:37 < Dcoetzee> Jasper_Deng: Well sort of... entropy is often measured in fractional bits... but what I was getting at is that any purist who thinks music sounds better played off a CD than from a lossless FLAC audio file is completely silly. :-P
10:37 < Dcoetzee> Since it's literally the same bits
10:38 < mareklug> Jasper_Deng never say never.   maybe we will come to distribute the bit over many wavelets
10:39 < wctaiwan> Dcoetzee: http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2012/06/concluding-the-great-mp3-bitrate-experiment.html
10:39  * wctaiwan gets a sense of deja vu
10:41 < Dcoetzee> wctaiwan: I am not surprised that people can't actually tell 160kbps VBR from lossless CD audio :-)
10:41 -!- NotASpy [~chatzilla@wikimedia/Nick] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
10:41 < wctaiwan> at this point someone usually points out the difference between "most people" and "everyone"
10:41 < wctaiwan> and proceed to assert that they can :p
10:41 < Dcoetzee> Well to be fair
10:42 < Dcoetzee> Detecting the difference requires both a good ear and good audio equipment
10:42 < a930913> *Sigh* https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wife&diff=next&oldid=558233281
10:42 < Dcoetzee> Which most people don't have
10:42 < wctaiwan> right.
10:42 < mareklug> Dcoetzee new definition of a soldering iron  http://www.ebay.com/itm/321139145465?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1431.l2649&autorefresh=true
10:42 < Dcoetzee> However, even those who do have it often only think they can tell the difference :-P
10:42 -!- StevenW [~StevenW@wikimedia/steven-walling] has joined #wikipedia-en
10:42 -!- IDoH [~IDoH@wikipedia/I-dream-of-horses] has joined #wikipedia-en
10:43 < IDoH> hey
10:43 -!- iDangerMouse [272c9cb9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.39.44.156.185] has joined #wikipedia-en
10:43 < wctaiwan> hey IDoH :)
10:44 < iDangerMouse> I am here for revange.
10:44 -!- Dcoetzee [~Dcoetzee@wikimedia/Dcoetzee] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
10:44 < iDangerMouse> Hello wctaiwan
10:44 < mareklug> iDangerMouse no matter.  if you were here for revenge, though, that would be serious business.
10:44 -!- Dcoetzee [~Dcoetzee@wikimedia/Dcoetzee] has joined #wikipedia-en
10:44 < wctaiwan> hello iDM.
10:44 < IDoH> Hey wctaiwan and iDangerMouse
10:44 < iDangerMouse> I wish "Revange" was in the dictionary.
10:45 < wctaiwan> http://timemagazine.tumblr.com/post/52300493495/this-weeks-time-cover-story-which-is-illustrated whoah.
10:45  * iDangerMouse gives IDoH cookies
10:45  * iDangerMouse pokes mareklug with a cereal box.
10:45  * IDoH eats cookies violently. Nom nom nom
10:46 < iDangerMouse> In other news! Rumors about Iran's situation anyone interested?
10:46 -!- FLHerne [~quassel@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #wikipedia-en
10:47 < mareklug> IDoH do you happen to know Björk's song titled "Violently Happy"?
10:47 < IDoH> no, I don't, mareklug
10:47 -!- Bjarki [~Thunderbi@wikipedia/Bjarki-S] has joined #wikipedia-en
10:47 < IDoH> Hey FLHerne and Bjarki
10:47 < mareklug> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38UrRpYsPjw   Björk - Violently Happy
10:48 < iDangerMouse> I am getting too old for IRC.
10:48 < mareklug> very intriguinig video, as usual with the Icelandic diva
10:49 < IDoH> Nice song, unexpectedly.
10:50 < Dcoetzee> wctaiwan: I am very intrigued that he showed (with strong statistical evidence) that people prefer the sound of 160 kbps VBR to raw CD audio
10:50 -!- James_F|Away is now known as James_F
10:50 < Dcoetzee> What is up with that?
10:50  * iDangerMouse slaps Dcoetzee with some Love <3
10:50 < Dcoetzee> iDangerMouse: Hi :-)
10:50 -!- anona [~z31fcs@99-90-197-87.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
10:50 < wctaiwan> the author attributes it to the 160Kbps sample being the first of the samples.
10:50 < Dcoetzee> I must sleep though
10:50 < wctaiwan> dude, I'm the one who's supposed to be saying that XD
10:50 < Dcoetzee> wctaiwan: But the n's were large enough for all the groups
10:50 < iDangerMouse> Good night Qcoder00. I have news on Iran, maybe another time when I am on IRC again.
10:51 < wctaiwan> yeah, but you might get some who lose interest after the first one
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10:51 < iDangerMouse> mareklug: I can't exit Canada, for 4.5 years.
10:52 -!- Bjarki [~Thunderbi@wikipedia/Bjarki-S] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
10:52 < mareklug> no Illinoiz for ya then
10:52 < iDangerMouse> Nope :(
10:52 < mareklug> We can meet at Tecumseh grave then
10:52 < wctaiwan> actually, no, they're all the same size
10:53 < iDangerMouse> Possible, after 4.5 yrs Auckland, NZ.
10:53 < wctaiwan> maybe people just rate "fresh" music higher, then?
10:53 < mareklug> iDangerMouse http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=2710
10:53 < mareklug> IDoH did you like it?
10:53 < IDoH> Yeah, I did
10:54 -!- addfood is now known as addshore
10:54 < iDangerMouse> Clicks.
10:54 < mareklug> IDoH see?  björk is gooooooot
10:54 < IDoH> Sometimes she is
10:54 < iDangerMouse> That's the same distance for me visiting Illinois.
10:55 < mareklug> no it is not.  it is way longer plus I have to take my bloody passport and pay the bridge toll at Detroit
10:55  * iDangerMouse sings Go West...
10:56 < mareklug> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walpole_Island
10:56 < iDangerMouse> For me?
10:57 < mareklug> for you it's like going to Windsor only slightly north
10:57 -!- Bjarki [~Thunderbi@wikipedia/Bjarki-S] has joined #wikipedia-en
10:58 < iDangerMouse> That's true
10:58 < iDangerMouse> Windsor never fancied but they do have awesome blueberry cheesecake.
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11:00 < mareklug> I hate driving the interstate in Michigan cuz the cops are anal retentive and at Jackson is a known speed trap
11:00 < Qcoder00> iDm: What was the item on Iran?
11:00 -!- LtNOWIS-mobile [~LtNOWIS@maa5a36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
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11:00 < iDangerMouse> Qcoder00: Canada is screwing up Iran, through ICJ.
11:01 < Qcoder00> How so?
11:01 < iDangerMouse> The Iranian Govt, soon will face cases, and if they refuse to attend the ICJ, and highly likely they will lose, and will be forced to be stopped.
11:02 < iDangerMouse> They can
11:02 < Qcoder00> What is the ICJ Case about?
11:02 -!- Harpagornis [~Harpagorn@wikimedia/Harpagornis] has quit [Quit: Saliendo]
11:02 < iDangerMouse> Corruption charges, Human Rights Violation Crime Act, IAEA Nuclear weapons case etc...
11:02 -!- Maryana [~Maryana@wikipedia/Accedie] has joined #wikipedia-en
11:03 < dtm> mareklug: that's.... not fair.  :-o
11:03 < mareklug> dtm what is not fair?
11:04 < mareklug> are you quoting Ms. Lily Allen per chance?
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11:05 < mareklug> dtm IDoH http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbeMw7D2Y7Y  Lily Allen - "Not Fair"
11:05 < mareklug> it's a riot when a potymouth does "cuntry"
11:05 -!- FLHerne [~quassel@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
11:05 < dtm> mareklug: no, i'm replying!
11:06  * iDangerMouse pings dtm 
11:06 < mareklug> dtm I lost context…. refresh
11:06 < iDangerMouse> Qcoder00: There might be protests again like 2009, in Iran, but nothing major. Source - Mossad.
11:07 < mareklug> IDoH this may be higher fidelity, and it is also studio with lyrics on screen  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIYHQArmSDs
11:07 < Qcoder00> Hmm
11:08 < Qcoder00> If Canada had proved state sponsership of terror, or technical assstance to the Assad regime, it would be interesting...
11:08 -!- Titoxd_ [~Titoxd@wikipedia/Titoxd] has joined #wikipedia-en
11:08 < Qcoder00> It's rumoured there is tacit support for Hazbollah through iran
11:08 < mareklug> Qcoder00 sponsorship *
11:08 < Qcoder00> and Hexbollah are supporting certain elements in Syria
11:09 < iDangerMouse> Hezbollah is officially taking part
11:10 < iDangerMouse> They have sent troops, and not denying it.
11:10 < mareklug> IDoH you like Lily?
11:10 < IDoH> Lily who?
11:10 < mareklug> the song I linked
11:11 < IDoH> Oh, one ec
11:11 < mareklug> IDoH this may be higher fidelity, and it is also studio with lyrics on screen  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIYHQArmSDs
11:11 < IDoH> I do like Lily
11:11 < iDangerMouse> Come with me the time is right, there is no better team, Pokemon gota catchem all its you and me...
11:12 < iDangerMouse> The Hezbollah, Iran game reminds me of that.
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11:12  * mareklug zapped all his Virtualbox VMs from his filled up back up drive and generated 32 weeks 6 days of estimated back up time.
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11:14 < iDangerMouse> mareklug: have you heard of Breast Milk Lollipops?
11:14 -!- Pharos [~chatzilla@pool-96-224-16-128.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #wikipedia-en
11:14 < mareklug> no.  sounds excessive already.  link some.
11:14 < iDangerMouse> http://www.lollyphile.com/products/breast-milk-lollipops
11:15 < mareklug> i thought it was a punk band
11:15 -!- GingerGeek is now known as GingerGeek[Away]
11:16 < iDangerMouse> They have weird flavours/flavors.
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11:19 < GorillaWarfare> It does sound like a band name
11:20 < Pharos> everything sounds like a band name
11:20 < mareklug> hurryupkwik.  start a band with that name.
11:20  * iDangerMouse hugs GorillaWarfare got my cookies?
11:20 < NotASpy> Elephant Hawkmoth is my favourite.
11:20 < mareklug> Elephant Hawkmoth sounds like a weirdass British name.
11:21 < Pharos> for example, "It Sounds Like a Band Name", could be a band name
11:21 < GorillaWarfare> iDangerMouse: No :(
11:21 < mareklug> Ferrer wins just now at Semis French Open.  Meets Nadal in the Final.  Interestingly, both Spaniards.
11:21 < NotASpy> mareklug: of course. That's why I think they would be a prog rock band, but with someone on flute and a mandolin.
11:22 < BlastHardcheese> Interestingly Both Spaniards would be a good band name
11:22 < mareklug> NotASpy oh so there are not a band?  just your nom?
11:22 < iDangerMouse> GorillaWarfare: Aw, no problem...... I haven't actually had any sort of cookies, or sugary stuff for 5 days. I feel deprived.
11:22 < mareklug> John Hackett does flute great.  He is the brother of guitarist Steve Hackett.
11:22 < NotASpy> BlastHardcheese: yes, but they would need to be more than a duo - i.e a four piece 'beat combo' or something.
11:23 < NotASpy> mareklug: yeah, it's a type of moth. Very pretty. That free encylopedia thingy has photos ! [[Deilephila elpenor]].
11:23 -!- Jeske_Couriano [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/jeske-couriano/x-0000001] has joined #wikipedia-en
11:23 < Fox2k12> "No matter how low you set the bar of common sense you always find one who can walk upright underneath it!" #True
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11:25 < mareklug> NotASpy IDoH this is as good time as any to relink the lovely New Zealander in studio (5 songs) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewMTRN9So88&list=PLBE4FAF539514C91E
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11:27 < iDangerMouse> Well, later dudes.
11:27 -!- dennisse is now known as dennise_enriquez
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11:29 < dennise_enriquez> ♥♡
11:29 < Pharos> Wikimedia Commons now has better photographers than the Chicago Sun-Times
11:29 < mattbuck> well yes, it has me
11:29 < mattbuck> :p
11:30 < Pharos> (they laid off their whole photo staff)
11:30 -!- Qcoder00 [~chatzilla@gfarlie-adsl.demon.co.uk] has left #wikipedia-en []
11:30 < dennise_enriquez> ola
11:30 < mattbuck> ...
11:30 < Pharos> which probably means they'll be using more Commons photos!
11:31 < mareklug> Pharos what is there to photograph in Chicago.  same old mugshots. and no new hirisies.
11:31 < Pharos> not that them losing their photographers is a good thing, it's actually pretty bad...
11:31 < dennise_enriquez>  Join #espanol
11:31 -!- Beria [~Beria@wikimedia/Beria] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
11:31 < dennise_enriquez>  /join espabol
11:31 < mattbuck> ola dennise_enriquez
11:31 < dennise_enriquez> Olawsaa
11:31 < mareklug> dennise_enriquez bastante, no spamo aquí.
11:31 < Pharos> surely they have new up-and-coming gangsters in chicago
11:32 < dennise_enriquez> K
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11:32 < mareklug> Pharos the up and coming gansters don't like to be photoshopped.
11:33 < mattbuck> no, they photoprotectionracket
11:33 < Pharos> i'm sure some of them are egoist enough
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11:35 < Pharos> they are gangsters, after all
11:35 < Pharos> they have suits and diamonds
11:37 < russavia> mattbuck slap
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11:46 < mattbuck> hi russavia
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11:52 < mareklug> "iTunes: Downloaded music is one of the most commonly taxed digital goods. For example, a $12.99 album downloaded from iTunes (AAPL) carries a state sales tax of 52 cents in Wyoming, 78 cents in Vermont and 91 cents in Mississippi."
11:53 < mareklug> now, if the state taxes you sales tax, does that not imply that you BOUGHT SOMETHING?
11:53 < mareklug> ergo, have the right to sell it?
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11:54 < Sven_Manguard> Can I get an admin to block 103.245.181.126 for a fairly long time please?
11:55 < legoktm> hai
11:55 < Sven_Manguard> hai
11:55 < Sven_Manguard> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/103.245.181.126 <-- all vandalism
11:55 < legoktm> whats the reason exactly?
11:55 < legoktm> oh
11:55 -!- Rcsprinter [~rcsprinte@wikipedia/Rcsprinter123] has joined #wikipedia-en
11:56 < legoktm> i gave them a 3 day vacation
11:56 < Sven_Manguard> way, way too short
11:57 < Sven_Manguard> but whatever
11:57 < GorillaWarfare> Heya Sven_Manguard
11:57 < Sven_Manguard> next time, and I'm sure there will be, that can be rectified
11:57 < Sven_Manguard> hey GorillaWarfare
11:57 < legoktm> yeah
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12:05 < russavia> mattbuck need categories for https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jimmy_Wales_by_Pricasso.jpg -- not sure where to place it :(
12:07 < Theo10011> heh
12:09 < tommorris> wait, he's painted an image of Jimbo Wales with his penis
12:09 < russavia> mattbuck is our local penile expert (apparently) so he should know of any categories
12:09 < russavia> no tommorris
12:09 < russavia> with his penis, scrotum and buttocks :)
12:09 < tommorris> well, that's okay then
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12:12 < tommorris> When I start thoughts with "I wish I could see someone rub their cock..." it doesn't usually end with "...all over a canvas to produce an image of Jimbo."
12:12 < tommorris> Perhaps I'm just too vanilla in my kinks.
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12:14 < tommorris> "Imagine a world where every human being can freely share in the sum of [[commons:Category:Penis art]]. That's our commitment!"
12:14 < russavia> That is what we are doing
12:15 < legoktm> This needs to end up on m:bash
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12:16 < tommorris> crikey, Russavia has sources for Pricasso too.
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12:16 < russavia> of course i do tommorris, otherwise i wouldn't be writing the article :P
12:16 < Pharos> i didn't realize that Pricasso had seen the light about freedom
12:17 < tommorris> "He first discovered that he could paint with his penis when he started getting his penis out at parties, and painting with it."
12:17 < tommorris> That's from the Metro, one of London's ever-expanding number of shitty free newspapers.
12:17 < russavia> well he first discovered it when he was taking a leak at a urinal, and drew a smiley face in the porcelain bowl lol
12:18 < tommorris> he and [[Troughman]] should have gotten together and done performance art.
12:19 < russavia> pharos, perhaps it needed russavia to guide them to that light ;)
12:20 < Pharos> you are our apostle to the penis painters!
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12:20 < tommorris> let's hope he doesn't get all van Gogh and cut things off.
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12:43 < PinkAmpersand> Ironholds: you're a lawyer, right? you think someone can get disbarred for spamming their services?
12:45 < kondi> https://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/large/779109876.jpg?1370632344
12:45 < Jasper_Deng> In most cases, the party being spammed isn't directly responsibli
12:45 < Jasper_Deng> or /is/ it, legally?
12:46 < PinkAmpersand> Jasper_Deng: being spammed about, you mean?
12:46 -!- JZTech101 [~jztech101@c-24-0-88-174.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
12:46 < Jasper_Deng> yeah
12:46 < Jasper_Deng> this lawyer might not know about this
12:46 < Ironholds> PinkAmpersand: depends on regional and national rules.
12:46 < NotASpy> Jasper_Deng: they wouldn't be worth instructing if they were, legally. That's some shit lawyering if you can't sign a contract and get some company to spam on your behalf but leave you free from legal responsibility.
12:46 < Ironholds> most bars have a general prohibition on behaviour that brings the bar into disrepute
12:46 < Jeske_Couriano> NotASpy) See Prenda Law
12:46 < Ironholds> what that includes depends on how pissed the regulatory authority is with the individual lawyer ;p
12:46 < PinkAmpersand> Jasper_Deng: true. i guess he could've just hired a low-quality SEO firm.
12:47 -!- David_Stevenson [~David@wikimedia/Moe-Epsilon] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
12:47 < Jasper_Deng> also, the spam link is a blog site
12:47 < Jasper_Deng> not a law firm site
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12:48 < PinkAmpersand> true. but that blog still seemed to be advertising that lawyer's services
12:48 < NotASpy> to get a firm or individual disbarred, you're looking at serious, serious disrepute. A bit of dodgy advertising isn't going to do it, hell, they're all over British telly flogging their services to the mentally bewildered during the day.
12:49 -!- StevenW [~StevenW@wikimedia/steven-walling] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:49 < Pharos> in the US, probably more so!
12:49 < NotASpy> had an accident - pissed yourself, call claims direct and sue yourself.
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12:50 < PinkAmpersand> yeah, i've seen all sorts of crappy law ads. still, those normally don't involve the disruption of a 501(c)(4) charitable organization
12:50 -!- halfak_ [~halfak@2607:ea00:104:3c00:46f:ffbe:f201:3006] has joined #wikipedia-en
12:50 < PinkAmpersand> I mean, spamming is a violation of the terms of service, is it not?
12:51 < NotASpy> I take it they're spamming wikipedia
12:51 < Jasper_Deng> it is
12:51 < PinkAmpersand> NotASpy: Wikidata, in this case, but yeah
12:51 < Jasper_Deng> however, the problem is, the Internet is global
12:51 < halfak_> ls
12:51 < Jasper_Deng> and if you want to police it, you need global laws
12:51 < Jasper_Deng> which aren't possible
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12:52 < Pharos> any lawyer that spams Wikidata should be congratulated on their trailblazing effort
12:53 < PinkAmpersand> maybe i can make a call to this guy, and politely blackmail him into making a generous donation to the Foundation :)
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12:53 < PinkAmpersand> Jasper_Deng: yes, but this lawyer was based in Texas
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12:54 < halfak_> I'm looking for a documented policy, guideline or rule-of-thumb about the number of times a link to the same destination *should* be created in an article.  (e.g. once per sentence, once per paragraph, once per article, etc.)
12:54 < Pharos> not too many times, is the answer
12:54 < Pharos> at least not more than once per paragraph, i'd say
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12:54 < PinkAmpersand> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:OVERLINK#Overlinking
12:55 < PinkAmpersand> halfak_: ^
12:55 < halfak_> Thanks!
12:55 < PinkAmpersand> "Generally, a link should appear only once in an article, but if helpful for readers, links may be repeated in infoboxes, tables, image captions, footnotes, and at the first occurrence after the lead."
12:55 < PinkAmpersand> in the future, #wikipedia-en-help is better for this kinda stuff
12:56 < halfak_> Oh sure.  Thanks.
12:57 < NotASpy> I would add, if you've got a big lump of text that's short of links or references, maybe sneak an extra link or two in. You'll get a feel for it as you write though.
12:57 < shimgray> the rule I originally picked up was "once per screen or two", but things have got a bit more refined since then
12:58 < shimgray> (in part because we now have more things to link to!)
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12:58 < NotASpy> aye, overdoing it and underdoing it both look dreadful.
12:59 < halfak_> "Once per screen or two" sounds like a good rule-of-thumb.  I usually adopt something similar.
12:59 < PinkAmpersand> yeah, the OVERLINK guideline is one of the more IAR'able ones
12:59 < PinkAmpersand> there's tons of legitimate reasons to include a link multiple times in a page
13:00 < Fox2k12> http://www.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/829/web <-- ANTA MONICA COLLGE SHOOTING. PRESIDENT IN THE AREA. Multiple agencies responding. Monitoring LASD SUD.
13:00 < Fox2k12> SANTA*
13:00 < halfak_> Gotta run.  Take care guys.
13:00 < NotASpy> bye.
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13:01 < PinkAmpersand> uh oh. California's a bad place for presidents
13:02 < Fox2k12> indeed..
13:02 < PinkAmpersand> only ever instance of a president sustaining two assassination attempts in one visit was there
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13:05 < Fox2k12> http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57588276/shots-fired-suspect-down-at-santa-monica-college/
13:06 < Jasper_Deng> Pink: Obama's in our state right now.
13:06 < Jasper_Deng> don't jinx it
13:06 < PinkAmpersand> Jasper_Deng: lol that was my point
13:06 < PinkAmpersand> Secret Service says it's a local police matter. bullshit.
13:06 < PinkAmpersand> they're probably just busy surrounding him with Marines
13:07 < Jasper_Deng> I've seen Obama's limo in DC
13:07 < PinkAmpersand> did you check to see if your cell phone turned off?
13:07 < Jasper_Deng> I didn't have one at the time
13:08 < Fox2k12> from twitter: @MichaelSkolnik: Santa Monica College update: Witnesses say suspect was wearing body armor and carrying a weapon. (via @MyFoxLA)
13:08 < Fox2k12> scanner feed recording also said he had a automatic weapon...
13:09 < PinkAmpersand> glad that this happened during /The Lead/ on CNN. anyone else wouldn't know how to report it, and I'd be forced to watch FOX.
13:10 < QueenOfFrance> why do people watch tv
13:10 < PinkAmpersand> because it's the best :P
13:10 < QueenOfFrance> tv is so 1990s
13:10 < QueenOfFrance> or 1980s even
13:10 < Fox2k12> http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/live-video/ <--
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13:12 < BlastHardcheese> see what happens when you try to stop the government spying on you for your own good
13:12 -!- Qcoder00 [~chatzilla@gfarlie-adsl.demon.co.uk] has joined #wikipedia-en
13:12 < Qcoder00> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/06/07/pirate_bay_founder_named_as_suspect_in_paneuropean_police_database_hack/
13:13 -!- ScientificAlan [~alan@cpe-184-57-219-55.cinci.res.rr.com] has joined #wikipedia-en
13:13 < Qcoder00> Heads up folks
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13:13 < ScientificAlan> Hello.
13:13 < ScientificAlan> How is everyone?
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13:16 < Qcoder00> I'm pissed
13:16 < Qcoder00> off
13:16 < Qcoder00> If the above Register article is to be tursted someone from TPB went to far
13:16 < Qcoder00> *too
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13:22 < RAN1> Hi, looking at WP:CP, all of the templates turn into links at the problem listing for May 6. Purging hasn't helped the issue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Copyright_problems
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13:22 < PinkAmpersand> RAN1: means the template include limit must've been exceeded
13:23 < RAN1> Ah.
13:23 < PinkAmpersand> happens to us on our deletion requests page on Wikidata from time to time. post on the talk page, maybe?
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13:25 < legoktm> mareklug: did you see what just got posted in #textual ?
13:25 < legoktm> http://i.imgur.com/iRCy0K2.jpg
13:26 < legoktm> sea lion
13:26 < legoktm> lololololol
13:26 < mareklug> i stopped watching #textual.  so paste it in my pm
13:27 < legoktm> oh
13:27 < mareklug> what is that?  looks like a large picture of a wave with a masking tape cross over it
13:27 < legoktm> well ^that was it
13:27  * PinkAmpersand doesn't get it
13:28 < mareklug> oh, it is an X as in Mac OS X
13:28 < mareklug> but I don't see any Sea Lion, just a green wave
13:28 < legoktm> http://www.macrumors.com/
13:28 < RAN1> PinkAmpersand: Thanks, posted on WP:CP's talk page.
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13:29 < mareklug> a sea lion is not a cat, but whatever
13:29 < PinkAmpersand> RAN1: now some template nerd will go figure out what to fix :P
13:29 < PinkAmpersand> i'd do it, but i'm in lazy mode
13:30 -!- Jamesofur|away is now known as Jamesofur
13:30 < RAN1> PinkAmpersand: I would be one of those, but it's the transclusion limit fail is probably because they're piling up a backlog.
13:31 -!- Jasper_Deng is now known as Jasper_Deng_away
13:31 < PinkAmpersand> yeah, but perhaps there's some reporting syntax that can be simplified? or some templates that can be subst'ed
13:32 < mareklug> legoktm all I can say that it signifies Next Wave
13:32 < PinkAmpersand> subst'ing gets around any include limits. i have a template on Wikidata that takes 90+ parameters, which is more than MW allows. but if you subst it, it works fine.
13:32 < legoktm> :P
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13:33 < PinkAmpersand> legoktm: something about that reminds me of this exhibit I saw at a museum in Jerusalem. a series of painted planks, where any 2 appear to be the exact same color, but altogether they form a rainbow
13:33 < legoktm> https://twitter.com/jsnell/status/343102213993930752/photo/1
13:34 < legoktm> o.O
13:39 < BlastHardcheese> planking?
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13:40 < ScientificAlan> Mudcrab attack! (Y)(._.)(Y)
13:42 < ScientificAlan> Awkward silence...
13:47 < RAN1> Those damn mudcrabs.
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13:47 -!- Alchimista [~alchimist@wikipedia/Alchimista] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
13:48 < PinkAmpersand> Fox2k12: 1 dead now
13:48 < Fox2k12> :/
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13:53 < ScientificAlan> In Skyrim, once, my dad was killed by a mudcrab.
13:54 < ScientificAlan> His armor rating was 0, he was level 30-something, and he had never increased his health.
13:55 < ScientificAlan> While I have an armor rating around 550, and I am level 43 with like 230 health.
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13:56 -!- TBloemink [~TBloemink@wikimedia/tbloemink] has left #wikipedia-en ["Until a taxi lambs a trolley, abbeys fading chambers. A postcard who drumming the palm soaked supermarkets."]
13:57 < PinkAmpersand> Putin's getting divorced :(
13:57 < ScientificAlan> I heard
13:57 < PinkAmpersand> who could leave a man who rides horseback shirtless?
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14:00 < NotASpy> I was going to say something, but it's a bit naughty so I shall refrain.
14:00 < PinkAmpersand> NotASpy: well you can't not say it now :P
14:00 < NotASpy> maybe she's divorcing him because he's taken to riding her around the Kremlin shirtless.
14:01 < PinkAmpersand> :)
14:01 < PinkAmpersand> she doesn't deserve him. he's way more good-looking than she is
14:02 < PinkAmpersand> in a creepy Russian way
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14:08 < Theo10011> They made a simpsons resort in Orlando!
14:13 < NotASpy> it's the sort of place Vladimir Putin will go to celebrate his divorce.
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14:21 < PinkAmpersand> NotASpy: not nearly macho enough :P
14:21 < NotASpy> it has a Moe's tavern with real flaming Moes on tap.
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14:29 < NotASpy> of course, they're not actually flaming, they use dry ice or something to produce some vapour effect.
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14:30 < Theo10011> Breaking news - http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/08/us/santa-monica-college-shooting.html
14:30 < Jasper_Deng> oh dear
14:30 -!- FLHerne [~quassel@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #wikipedia-en
14:30 < QueenOfFrance> oh dear indeed
14:33 < FastLizard4> I'm at UCLA right now, so that isn't far from me
14:33 < FastLizard4> Hmm
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14:35 < PinkAmpersand> Jasper_Deng: Fox2k12 and I mentioned that like an hour ago :P
14:36 < Jasper_Deng> oh
14:36 < Jasper_Deng> derp
14:36 < Fox2k12> yep..
14:36 < PinkAmpersand> Obama's hightailing it out of there
14:36 < Fox2k12> I even posted live video coverage
14:36 < Fox2k12> of course is potus out there asap...
14:36 < PinkAmpersand> hey, anyone know a good online product to turn svg source code into an image?
14:37 -!- Falcorian [~Falcorian@wikipedia/Falcorian] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
14:37 < PinkAmpersand> Fox2k12: well he was here in Boston /between/ the attacks
14:37 < Fox2k12> okay..
14:37 < PinkAmpersand> which was dumb, probably
14:37 < Fox2k12> but i guess the secret service was moving him out quickly this time...
14:38 < PinkAmpersand> yeah. like i said, Presidents and California have a bad history
14:38 < PinkAmpersand> of course, inside of Cadillac 1 he's pretty much invincible.
14:38 < Fox2k12> yeah..
14:39 < Fox2k12> like kennedy?
14:39 < QueenOfFrance> Fox2k12: are you serious?
14:39 < Fox2k12> "kennedy-safe" ;)
14:39 < Fox2k12> I'm kidding
14:40 < Fox2k12> I was refering to PinkAmpersand...
14:40 < PinkAmpersand> although I guess D.C. remains the worse place for presidents
14:40 < PinkAmpersand> Fox2k12: well that was an open-top convertible
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14:40 < Fox2k12> I know..
14:40 < PinkAmpersand> Obama, on the other hand, has essentially a humvee that looks like a limo
14:40 -!- IShadowed [~IShadowed@wikimedia/IShadowed] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
14:41 < PinkAmpersand> plus a combat-ready counter-attack team
14:41 -!- Barras2 [barras2@wikimedia/barras] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
14:41 < Fox2k12> i think i saw that car  once on tv..looks like a stretch limo
14:42 < PinkAmpersand> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_One
14:42 < Jasper_Deng> Pink: do you think that was what I saw in 2010?
14:42 < PinkAmpersand> how would i know?!
14:42 < PinkAmpersand> :P
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14:43 < PinkAmpersand> Jasper_Deng: how many cars were in the motorcade?
14:43 < Jasper_Deng> I didn't count, exactly, but there were a minimum of 3 limos
14:43 < Jasper_Deng> as many as 5
14:43 < PinkAmpersand> could be, then
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14:43 < Jasper_Deng> lots of police cars and motorcycles escorting
14:44 < PinkAmpersand> http://www.theatlantic.com/video/archive/2011/02/the-presidential-motorcade/70681/
14:44 -!- Rcsprinter [~rcsprinte@wikipedia/Rcsprinter123] has quit [Quit: Er, I quit...?]
14:44 < Jasper_Deng> yeah it looked like that
14:45 < PinkAmpersand> "Hawkeye Renegade" - best name
14:45 < NotASpy> PinkAmpersand: that's as bad as our convoys for the Trident nukes. http://www.nukewatch.org.uk/spot.php
14:46 < PinkAmpersand> oh, i've seen tanks on the highway :P
14:46 < PinkAmpersand> but the presidential motorcade is pretty effective
14:47 < PinkAmpersand> Obama's Secret Service detail once arrested the Turkish president's entire detail
14:47 < Jasper_Deng> ?
14:47 < PinkAmpersand> http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/03/inside-the-secret-service/308390/ one of the coolest articles i've ever read
14:48 < PinkAmpersand> Jasper_Deng: during the UN General Assembly. The Turkish president had the brilliant idea to walk though traffic in New York, surrounded by armed guards.
14:48 < PinkAmpersand> Secret Service saw a large group of men with machine guns walking toward them... Lucky no one got shot.
14:49 < Jasper_Deng> and this wasn't declared to the S. SErvice?
14:50 < PinkAmpersand> "The prime minister of Turkey, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, was not so understanding. His motorcade was arriving at the Sheraton Hotel while a “POTUS Freeze” was in place. The Secret Service agent in charge of Erdogan’s detail asked him to wait until Obama’s motorcade had departed, but the Turkish prime minister did not heed the advice. He opened the door
14:50 < PinkAmpersand> to his car, and armed Turkish agents began exiting the other vehicles in the motorcade. “Don’t do that!” the American detail leader shouted. But Erdogan’s entourage nonetheless approached Obama’s departure tent. An agent in the Presidential Protective Detail, having no idea who these foreign guys with guns were, yelled into his handheld mike,
14:50 < PinkAmpersand> “Crash it! Crash the tent!” Within moments, a dozen agents were out of their cars in full sprint, guns drawn, and the Turks were forcibly detained.
14:50 < PinkAmpersand> The incident was over within 20 seconds, but the Turkish delegation was mightily offended. It canceled several events in New York, while the Secret Service and the State Department apologized and tried to smooth hurt egos. Although agents had done exactly what they were supposed to do, the service initiated a full review, and procedures were altered to
14:50 < PinkAmpersand> ensure that presidential motorcades didn’t intersect with waiting dignitaries in the future."
14:51 < Jasper_Deng> that was....
14:53 < PinkAmpersand> ...?
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14:53  * Jasper_Deng 's jaw dropped
14:53 < PinkAmpersand> Secret Service is awesome
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14:54 < Jasper_Deng> I remember Nixon abusing it thoguh
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14:55 < QueenOfFrance> Nixon? Our nixon or the US nixon?
14:55 < Jasper_Deng> US nixon
14:55  * QueenOfFrance reads up on the discussion
14:55 < QueenOfFrance> ah
14:55 < PinkAmpersand> who's "our nixon"?
14:55 < QueenOfFrance> PinkAmpersand: eswiki user
14:55 < PinkAmpersand> ah
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15:01 < PinkAmpersand> Jasper_Deng: but yeah. Secret Service is probably one of the most effective parts of the U.S. Government
15:01 < Jasper_Deng> I can agree w/ that now
15:01 < PinkAmpersand> only 2 agents have ever been shot protecting the President
15:01 < Jasper_Deng> it's just that my USHAP class made me think of it as being misused
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15:01 < PinkAmpersand> though i think like 100 have been killed doing currency stuff
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15:04 < Qcoder00> Any admins?
15:04 < Prodego> yes, but I'll have to answer a talk page post if I make an edit
15:04 < QueenOfFrance> Prodego: or you could ignore it
15:04 < QueenOfFrance> that's what I do when people post on my talk pag
15:04 < QueenOfFrance> e
15:04 < QueenOfFrance> :D
15:04 < Prodego> No, it merits a response
15:04 -!- JZTech101 [~jztech101@c-24-0-88-174.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #wikipedia-en
15:04 < PinkAmpersand> that right there is why i'll probably never run for admin.
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15:05 < PinkAmpersand> responsibilities are ignoring
15:05 < Prodego> but isn't high priority, since it is about a block that is now expired
15:05 < PinkAmpersand> *annoying
15:05 < Qcoder00> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jimbo_Wales - I reverted back to an earlier version
15:05 < Qcoder00> but the edit isn't showing up in the histroy
15:05 < Prodego> yes it is
15:05 < Prodego> control-f5 for you
15:06 < PinkAmpersand>  16:17, 7 June 2013‎ Sfan00 IMG (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (6,307 bytes) (-67)‎ . . (Reverted 1 edit by DracoEssentialis (talk) to last revision by EVula. (TW)) (undo | thank)
15:06 < Qcoder00> Odd
15:06 < Qcoder00> cause I  did revert VERY recently
15:06 < Qcoder00> that went through without error
15:07 < Qcoder00> Anyhow
15:07 < Qcoder00> Can someone have a word with a user in question?
15:07 < Qcoder00> That put the 'shock' art on it?
15:07 < PinkAmpersand> decent painting
15:07 < Prodego> well that wasn't recent
15:08 < Prodego> perhaps you edit conflicted with Singularity42
15:08 < Qcoder00> Maybe
15:08 < PinkAmpersand> someone gonna run a check on that account?
15:08 < Qcoder00> PinkAmpersand:  By a not very notable artist
15:08 < Prodego> I don't see any 'shock' art
15:08 < Qcoder00> Read the caption
15:08 < PinkAmpersand> Qcoder00: Pricasso's super-notable!
15:08 < PinkAmpersand> I've seen him on Tosh.0
15:08 < Qcoder00> Hmm
15:09 < Prodego> Well that's not shock art
15:09 < Prodego> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_image
15:09 < Qcoder00> But I hardly think a picture painted with a ***** is appropriate for Jimbo's page
15:09 < Qcoder00> I'm half tempted to nuke the image concerned at Commons
15:09 < PinkAmpersand> you shouldn't have reverted without a summary, though. that's edit warring
15:09 < Prodego> oh it isn't, it just isn't shock art
15:10 < Prodego> someone want to hit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Block/Florestan_Jaupa
15:10 < NotASpy> painted with a ***** - are they Michelin stars ?
15:10 < Prodego> PinkAmpersand: oh I think not
15:10 < Qcoder00> PinkAmpersand:  Hmm
15:10 < Qcoder00> NotASpy: I don't like saying words Commons people get hot about
15:11 < PinkAmpersand> Prodego: for restoring an edit made by someone with 20k+ edits?
15:11 < NotASpy> it's a lovely painting. It needs a userbox: This user likes the Pricasso painting of our beloved leader
15:11 < PinkAmpersand> probably a sock of someone, but, lacking evidence, the edit isn't itself blockable
15:11 < PinkAmpersand> IMHO
15:11 < NotASpy> PinkAmpersand: read their userpage. Not a sock.
15:11 < Qcoder00> It is disruptive though
15:11 < QueenOfFrance> We should just ban russavia
15:12 < PinkAmpersand> NotASpy: whose userpage?
15:12 < NotASpy> PinkAmpersand: the editor who added it.
15:12 < Qcoder00> Are Draco and Florestan the same?
15:12 < PinkAmpersand> NotASpy: i was referring to Florestan
15:12 < Prodego> you can block Florestan, you can't block Draco, and no edit summary was required to revert
15:12 < Prodego> </summary>
15:12 < Qcoder00> I doubt there's enough for Check user
15:12 < Prodego> I doubt I am motivated to get a checkuser to do it
15:12 < PinkAmpersand> oh, wait, it was Jayen's wife? lol, nvm then
15:13 < Prodego> it also doesn't matter, since you can just block them
15:13 < Qcoder00> 1 edit ?
15:13 < PinkAmpersand> can someone please revoke her rollback perms? they were added without any reason
15:13 < NotASpy> It's not as if it's a proper edit war, it's a bit of fun getting out of hand.
15:14 < Prodego> You don't need a reason to give rollback rights
15:14 < QueenOfFrance> PinkAmpersand: what prodego said
15:16 < PinkAmpersand> yes, but assigning rollback to someone for no obvious reason, presumably simply because of who the user's married to (not to mention assigning autopatroller), and then that user going on to use it in an edit war...
15:16 < Qcoder00> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DracoEssentialis - ROFL
15:16 < Qcoder00> Look at the last item
15:17 < Qcoder00> :(
15:17 < Prodego> I'm confused as to who you are talking about PinkAmpersand
15:17 < PinkAmpersand> Draco
15:17 < Qcoder00> Any OTRS Permission queue people in?
15:17 < Qcoder00> Might as well check there is a permission for the 'unusal' portrait
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15:23 < PinkAmpersand> Qcoder00: russavia knows better than to violate copyrights or lie about permission
15:23 < Qcoder00> True
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15:28 < mareklug> http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/sony-finally-signs-with-apple-for-streaming-iradio
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15:31 < mattbuck> generally yes PinkAmpersand
15:31 < mattbuck> but people do make mistakes
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15:36 < PinkAmpersand> hey, Qcoder00 and mattbuck, you're both good with images, right?
15:36 < Qcoder00> Normally
15:36 < Qcoder00> But don't ask me to look at tentacle porn
15:36 < PinkAmpersand> lol
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15:36 < PinkAmpersand> can you whip up a version of http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wikidata-logo-en.svg with black bars for test.wikidata.org? i tried, but SVG is scary
15:37 < mattbuck> yeah, I can do that
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15:37 < mattbuck> probably
15:38 < mattbuck> my svg skills are almost non-existant, but I can change colours well enough
15:38 < Qcoder00> mattbuck: Can you also do a Black and white Wikimania Logo?
15:38 < mattbuck> don't know, what's the wikimania logo?
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15:39 < mattbuck> hm, inkscape isn't working
15:40 < mattbuck> luckily svgs work as text files
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15:40 < Bradford> Nascar1996: O_O
15:40 < PinkAmpersand> yeah... i tried just replacing the color codes with #000 using http://svg-edit.googlecode.com/svn/branches/2.5.1/editor/svg-editor.html, but it created this weird black spike on the bottom
15:41 < mattbuck> do you want the text black as well?
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15:43 < Qcoder00> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wikidata-logo-en-black.svg This was what was wanted
15:43 < Qcoder00> ?
15:44 < mattbuck> that looks like it
15:44 < mattbuck> my work here is done
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15:45 < PinkAmpersand> mattbuck: no, same color
15:46 < PinkAmpersand> Qcoder00: thanks! i think it looks better with the grey text, though
15:46 < mattbuck> [[File:Wikidata-logo-black-en.svg]]
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15:49 < PinkAmpersand> cool. thanks guys.
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15:50  * mattbuck reinstalls inkscape and wonders when it broke
15:50 < Qcoder00> Linux ?
15:50 < mattbuck> windows 7
15:50 < mattbuck> new pc in a few months, going with windows 7 again
15:50 < mattbuck> I know the rules
15:50 < Qcoder00> And I've still not found good 'free' sewing pattern softwrae
15:51 < mattbuck> every second windows version is shit
15:52 < mattbuck> reinstalled and now it works
15:52 < Qcoder00> Win 3 good ,  Win 3.11 so so Win95 Good Win 98 good   WinME (bad)
15:52 < Qcoder00> XP Good...
15:52 < Qcoder00> Vista (Hmm)
15:52 < mattbuck> you wanted something made black Qcoder00?
15:52 < Qcoder00> Windows 7 (good m but DRM happy)
15:52 < mattbuck> I thought 95 was meant to be the bad one
15:52 < mattbuck> with 98 good
15:52 < mattbuck> me was pretty bad
15:52 < mattbuck> but it did have a very pretty media player visualisation
15:53 < Qcoder00> ME was trying to do 32 bit on a  creaking 16bit kernal in places...
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15:53 < Jasper_Deng> 8 bad
15:53 < Qcoder00> So Windows 9 should solve the Tablet/Dekstop UI dichomtmy
15:53 < Qcoder00> And I can't see why Windows 8 needed to be tablet OS
15:53 < Jasper_Deng> Qcoder00: what about 8.1?
15:53 -!- ThePoster56 [~COS@62.233.41.198] has joined #wikipedia-en
15:53 < ThePoster56> Want to take someone offline Friends, Game Servers, Website? Join iBooter ! ibooter.us | ibooter.info
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15:53 < Qcoder00> Cant you have 3 streams?  Server, Desktop and Mobile?
15:53 < QueenOfFrance> NOT AGAIN
15:54 < Qcoder00> ^Ops-Spam!
15:54 < mattbuck> i'm on it QueenOfFrance
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15:54 < mattbuck> oh wait, wikipedia
15:54 < mattbuck> fikdhigtb#
15:54 < Bradford> lol
15:54 < mattbuck> someone make me an op here!
15:54 < FastLizard4> Qcoder00: we know :P
15:54 < Jasper_Deng> only the best get to be ops here
15:54 < FastLizard4> Qcoder00: 15:53:51 <+AntiSpamMeta> Info risk threat [#wikipedia-en] - ThePoster56 - joined, said something, parted/quit;
15:54 < FastLizard4> Big AntiSpamMeta is Watching You
15:54 < Qcoder00> mattbuck:  Do you accept Jimbo as the Sole Architect?
15:55 -!- mode/#wikipedia-en [+o Logan_] by ChanServ
15:55 -!- mode/#wikipedia-en [+b *!*@62.233.41.198] by Logan_
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15:55 < mattbuck> I accept him as someone who I will ensure is first against the wall when the revolution comes
15:55 < Qcoder00> Ermn...
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15:56 < PinkAmpersand> qcoder did not take too kindly to that, it seems :P
15:57 < FastLizard4> Jimbo is the Godking :P
15:57 < mattbuck> guess not
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15:57 < IDoH> hey
15:58 < Bradford> Hi IDoH :D
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15:59 < Theo10011> gj Logan_
15:59 < Theo10011> and welcome back!
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16:03 < Logan_> <3
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16:11 < Theo10011> <3
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16:51 < SigmaWP> hello Logan_
16:51 < Logan_> Hi SigmaWP.
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17:09 < Peter-C> GorillaWarfare
17:09 < Peter-C> haihai
17:10 < GorillaWarfare> Hey Peter-C
17:10 < Peter-C> You going to HK?
17:10 < GorillaWarfare> I wish
17:12  * Peter-C is going to HK <#
17:12  * Peter-C runs around holding plane tickets almost worth the value of his car
17:12 < QueenOfFrance> HK must be really nice
17:12 < QueenOfFrance> the harbour with all the containers is gorgeous in the photo we have on wikipedia
17:13 < Peter-C> ?
17:13 < Fox2k12> meh... CNN says 6 Death in Santa monica Shooting.. :/
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17:14 < Jasper_Deng> QueenOfFrance: what's HK?
17:14 < David_Stevenson> Hong Kong?
17:14 < QueenOfFrance> Jasper_Deng: Hong Kong?
17:14 < Fox2k12> Hong kong maybe?
17:14 < Jasper_Deng> oh
17:14 < QueenOfFrance> could be HK-47
17:14 < QueenOfFrance> too
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17:15 < QueenOfFrance> [[HK-47]]
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17:16 < foks> Peter-C, I'll see you there then.
17:16  * foks cries.
17:17 < Peter-C> HK416 is my weapon of choice quanticle
17:17 < Peter-C> * QueenOfFrance
17:19 < Peter-C> https://sphotos-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/965736_459176384171964_444468230_o.jpg
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17:54 < Fox2k12> whats wrong foks ?
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18:55 < Soapy> no RfA's
18:56 < IDoH> It's also quiet in IRC today
18:56 < IDoH> even in en-help
18:56 < kylu> too quiet.
18:56 < IDoH> Yes
18:56  * IDoH jumps out and scares people
18:56 < IDoH> BOO!
18:56  * kylu hugs Dot...er...IDoH.
18:57  * IDoH hugs kylu back
18:57 < kylu> ^o^
18:57 < IDoH> Oooh, new version of huggle
18:57 -!- Swarley_ [~chatzilla@wikimedia/Addihockey10] has joined #wikipedia-en
18:57 < GorillaWarfare> IDoH: Anything interesting in the changelog?
18:58 < IDoH> Changelog?
18:58 < kylu> also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXTfrWV3nYs
19:02 -!- slaporte [~slaporte@wikisource/slaporte] has quit [Quit: slaporte]
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19:04 -!- Lydia_WMDE [~lydia@wikidata/Lydia-Pintscher-WMDE] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:05 < GorillaWarfare> IDoH: Sorry,
19:05 < GorillaWarfare> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Huggle/Changes
19:05 < IDoH> Ahh
19:05 < IDoH> No
19:05 < IDoH> Just a "memory leak". What's that?
19:06 < Soapy> memory leaks are a pain
19:06 -!- addihockey10 [~addihocke@wikimedia/Addihockey10] has joined #wikipedia-en
19:06 < Soapy> imagine if every program you used on your computer had no quit option
19:06 -!- OlEnglish [~me@wikipedia/OlEnglish] has quit [Quit: audi]
19:06 < Soapy> they just kept piling up on top of each other
19:06 < IDoH> Oh. Is that a memory leak?
19:06 < Soapy> and like, say, Winamp opened a new instance of itself whenever you wanted to go to a new song
19:06 < Soapy> so after a few hours youd have 50 Winamps running and none of them would close
19:07 < Soapy> yeah, thats pretty much a memory leak
19:07 < IDoH> I see
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19:07 -!- Swarley_ is now known as Swarlley
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19:07 < mareklug> IDoH a memory leak is simply when a program keeps on consuming more memory as it runs, without releasing the old
19:07 < IDoH> I see
19:08  * GorillaWarfare turns on the hockey game
19:08 < mareklug> GorillaWarfare your Bruins are about to salt it away
19:08 < Swarlley> GorillaWarfare: boston scored
19:08 < Soapy> cool
19:08 -!- Lydia_WMDE [~lydia@wikidata/Lydia-Pintscher-WMDE] has joined #wikipedia-en
19:08 < GorillaWarfare> I know; I can tell how the Bruins are doing based on the volume of my neighbors
19:08 < Swarlley> Sydney Crosby's a bitch
19:08 < mareklug> soapy hoping for a Chicago - Boston Stanley Cup?
19:09 < Swarlley> also
19:09 < Swarlley> mareklug: now I dislike avril lavigne even more
19:09 < Swarlley> who the fuck would marry chad kroger
19:09 < mareklug> Swarlley I am sure she has a mac
19:09 < Swarlley> kroeger
19:09 -!- bazinga [~addihocke@wikimedia/Addihockey10] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
19:09 < IDoH> mareklug: {{cn}}
19:09 < mareklug> is that her latest?
19:10 < IDoH> You mean, mareklug, that you...
19:10 < Swarlley> i mean...
19:10  * IDoH gasps
19:10 < Swarlley> it's chad fucking kroeger
19:10 < Swarlley> he sucks at music on all levels
19:10 < IDoH> don't keep up with Avril Lavignes' love life?
19:10 < mareklug> IDoH no, I just spin her music
19:10 < IDoH> Oh. Good for you.
19:10 < Swarlley> IDoH: I heard it on the radio
19:10 < Swarlley> (not my radio station choice)
19:10 -!- Mike_H [~quassel@72.184.56.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
19:11 < IDoH> Swarlley: I was responding to mareklugs' "Maybe she has a mac."
19:11 < Swarlley> oh
19:11 < Soapy> come on marek you know I dont follow sports
19:11 < Soapy> I couldnt even name all the hockey teams
19:11 < Swarlley> kings, blackhawks, bruins, penguins, rangers...
19:11 < Soapy> the only time Ive tuned in to ESPN in the last year was to watch the Spelling Bee
19:11 < GorillaWarfare> Hockey blows my mind
19:11 < Swarlley> blue jackets... canucks, flames, oilers, leafs, canadiens
19:12 < mareklug> IDoH not only does she use macs, she was a relatively early adopter:  http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=12631
19:12 < Soapy> Senators
19:12 < GorillaWarfare> I can barely even stay upright normally; doing it on skates is horrifying to me
19:12 -!- FastLizard4|away is now known as FastLizard4
19:12 < mareklug> Avril Lavigne uses a PowerBook G4
19:12 < Swarlley> GorillaWarfare: You should totally be a referee in minor hockey
19:12 < GorillaWarfare> Swarlley: The kids would have to drag me around
19:13 < Soapy> oh that kind of minor
19:13 < Swarlley> GorillaWarfare: I've had to deal with so many little shits
19:13 < Swarlley> One did a remake of the Todd Bertuzzi incident
19:13 < GorillaWarfare> I don't doubt it
19:16 -!- The_Blade [~chatzilla@ool-18ba301d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #wikipedia-en
19:16 < mareklug> IDoH Swarlley Soapy  GorillaWarfare   http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2928&d=1034181273  :) :) :) :)
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19:16 < Swarlley> mareklug: but it's fucking nickelback
19:17 < mareklug> what is a nickleback?
19:17 < Swarlley> I think one who likes nickelback doesn't get to have an opinion on anything else.
19:17 < mareklug> it's a regulation PowerBook G4 Titanium
19:18 < The_Blade> Swarlley; when people say they like Nickelback, my response is, "I'm sorry, but everyone is entitled to an opinion, and yours is wrong."
19:19 < The_Blade> It's a paraphrase of what Dave Barry says to Neil Diamond fans.
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19:22 < Soapy> i didnt get the point of the picture
19:22 < mareklug> Soapy Avril Lavigne using an Apple laptop
19:22 < Soapy> oh i didnt know it was her
19:22 < Swarlley> Soapy: Don't worry, few people get the point of mareklug's posts.
19:22 < IDoH> LOL, Swarlley.
19:22 < Soapy> she looks a lot younger than I would have thought
19:23 < Swarlley> and even fewer are enlightened by them
19:23 < mareklug> enough for addihockey10 to hate her more than for her love life with some lowlife
19:23 < IDoH> By the way, if the klugmans' music gets stuck in your head, go to www.unhearit.com
19:23 < Soapy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Avril_Lavigne,_Wango_Tango_2013.jpg   <---- those eyes
19:23 < mareklug> Swarlley you say the most vicious things in public, but privately you always come crawling to me for advice
19:23  * The_Blade still has nightmares from his sister playing Sk8er Boy literally 75 times one day...
19:24 -!- anona [~z31fcs@99-90-197-87.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
19:24 < Swarlley> mareklug: Do you honestly think I'm serious most of the time?
19:24 < IDoH> Soapy: Strange eye makeup.
19:24 < Swarlley> It's -en
19:24 < IDoH> The_Blade: unhearit.com :-)
19:24 < mareklug> The_Blade v
19:24 < mareklug> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbdb7rdcNdI
19:24 < The_Blade> Heh.
19:24 < mareklug> IDoH ^^^^
19:25 < IDoH> I've listened to Sk8er boy back when Avril was cool
19:25 < The_Blade> I actually did something like that when I heard Shout by Tears for Fears.  I hated the damn song and I knew it'd stay stuck in my head until I played it to death, so I did it.
19:26 < mareklug> IDoH Avril is still cool.  Everybody loves her.
19:26 -!- heatherw [~hwalls@wikimedia/heatherawalls] has quit [Quit: heatherw]
19:26 < IDoH> I don't, mareklug
19:26 < mareklug> IDoH you are just jealous
19:26 -!- heatherw [~hwalls@c-24-23-243-177.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #wikipedia-en
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19:26 < IDoH> No, I just don't like her
19:26 < mareklug> IDoH you don't get her racoon makeup
19:27 < mareklug> raccoon
19:27 < IDoH> I don't like her raccoon makeup
19:28 -!- Solarra [~Solarra@udp102803uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #wikipedia-en
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19:29  * The_Blade cannot profess to understand the fascination with how some celebrities look, but figures that industry employs enough people that it's mostly harmless
19:30 < mareklug> The_Blade Avril is just the cutest smurf.  and a great rocker lady.
19:31 -!- heatherw [~hwalls@wikimedia/heatherawalls] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
19:31 < The_Blade> My preference is more Anette Olzon, but hey, whatever works.
19:32 -!- baddEVE [ThrashIRC@cm75.eta29.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #wikipedia-en
19:33 < mareklug> The_Blade I have far ranging taste in music, and if we restrict it to divas, it will still include Argentinian pop to Italian operatic ones.
19:34 < The_Blade> True, true.
19:35 < mareklug> hysterical last 15 seconds in boston
19:35 < mareklug> Boston wins
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19:37 < Soapy> cool
19:37 < mareklug> "first sweep of the Penguins in 34 years.  The Bruins did that."
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19:39 < The_Blade> Not much of a hockey fan, but it's hard not to be impressed that a guy who's 6'9" could play hockey.
19:40 < mareklug> Hockey is great at the highest levels of technical prowess.  Stanley Cup is such a time.
19:40 < harej> I need a tool that tells me how many people edited a given page.
19:40 -!- Bradford [kvirc@unaffiliated/bradford] has joined #wikipedia-en
19:40 < TParis> harej: toolserver.org/~daniel/WikiSense/Contributors.php?wikilang=en&wikifam=.wikipedia.org&grouped=on&page=Norman_Selfe
19:40 < mareklug> harej isn't that given on the page itself?
19:40 < harej> The actual number?
19:41 < mareklug> well, it lists the contributors, so that's darn close
19:41 < harej> Thank you TParis
19:41 < TParis> np
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19:43 < eeekster__> would somebody like to explain fair use? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Surfer43#Replaceable_fair_use_File:Hispaniola_greater_funnel-eared_bat_in_Los_Haitises_National_Park.jpg
19:44 -!- eeekster__ is now known as eeekster
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19:45 < The_Blade> Easy; the picture itself isn't notable, and it's conceivable that someone could go to Hispaniola and take a picture of this bat.  Therefore, the image is considered replacable.
19:45 < The_Blade> *replaceable
19:46 < Soapy> true
19:46 < The_Blade> This is why I actually *read* NFCC before uploading non-free images, and this is why anyone with less than ~500 edits probably shouldn't be uploading non-free images.
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19:48 < The_Blade> Unfortunate we can't use that image, though, it's a good picture.
19:48 < Soapy> if i take a picture of the picture and upload it as public domain itd be cool though, right?
19:48  * Ironholds winces
19:48 < Soapy> because Im just taking a picture of my computer monitor
19:49 < Ironholds> I hate you.
19:49 < Ironholds> it's 4am and you're making my brain hurt unnecessarily.
19:49 < The_Blade> I don't think that's what people had in mind with freedom of panorama...
19:49 < IDoH> Ironholds: Go to bed.
19:50 < Ironholds> IDoH: I've got to write up a training plan for four staffers.
19:50 < Ironholds> I knew there were downsides to hiring more mes.
19:50 < IDoH> Ooh. Sucks to be Ironholds
19:50 -!- jorm [~bharris@wikimedia/jorm] has joined #wikipedia-en
19:50 < Ironholds> yes! But on the plus side in 3 months I get to walk away from this job knowing it'll continue.
19:50 < IDoH> Cool!
19:50 < Ironholds> I actually made any promotion or movement for me conditional on that.
19:51 < Ironholds> If it was a choice between money for a replacement me after I left, and money to promote me, I'd leave.
19:51 < Ironholds> yo, JoFo_
19:51 -!- heatherw [~hwalls@50-1-118-158.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #wikipedia-en
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19:51 < Ironholds> eck. jorm
19:51 < jorm> hrm?  what now?
19:51 < Ironholds> I said 'yo' and then tab-completed wrong. Hi :)
19:53  * mareklug does not see any entries in the History calendar for today.
19:57  * eeekster sighs
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19:57 < mareklug> I'm getting 5 hours of actual time on a replacement battery (new) on my 1998 PowerBook G3 Series Wallstreet II PDQ 300MHz, with the thing showing 33 minutes of estimated time left.  And that is one bay, out of possible two, so 11 hour battery time.  Tee-hee.
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20:08 < The_Blade> Oh man... I just *had* to stumble across the video of Hank Gathers.  Not quite sure how on earth I ended up there.
20:09 -!- James_F is now known as James_F|Away
20:09 -!- Zhaofeng_Li [Elite3737@wikipedia/Zhaofeng-Li] has joined #wikipedia-en
20:09 < mareklug> eeek!  http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/06/07/hepatitis-a-outbreak-frozen-berries-vaccine/2396715/
20:10 -!- Lara|Study [~chatzilla@wikimedia/Jennavecia] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 21.0/20130511120803]]
20:10 < Soapy> cool
20:11 < The_Blade> And what say Jenny McCarthy to that?
20:11 < Soapy> good thing I only eat blueberry flavored starch balls
20:11 < IDoH> Jenny McCarthy has a body count to her name.
20:11 < mareklug> of all nasty illnesses to get from frozen berries, hep A????????
20:11 < Soapy> meanwhile all the people who eat Townsend Farms Organic Antioxidant Blend frozen berry and pomegranate mix sold by Costco and Harris Teeter stores are keeling over with hepatitis
20:11 -!- OlEnglish [~me@S0106602ad08246c6.vs.shawcable.net] has joined #wikipedia-en
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20:12 < The_Blade> My siblings didn't understand why I wanted her dead until I showed them the Penn and Teller episode on vaccinations.  Then they all said they'd help me put her on a breaking wheel.
20:12 < mareklug> Soapy to be sure, the berries in that shit come from Africa
20:12 < Soapy> oh wait
20:12 < Soapy> is she the autism denier?
20:12 < The_Blade> She's the anti-vaccine spokes"person".
20:12 < Soapy> yeah
20:12 < The_Blade> She and her crazy pediatrician.
20:13 < Soapy> "autism denier" is an odd phrase to use but thats what I meant
20:13 < IDoH> Soapy: The autism denier? No, more like the "autism is caused by vaccines and can be cured" murderer.
20:13 -!- funnyfarm299 [~funnyfarm@adsl-184-38-29-167.msy.bellsouth.net] has joined #wikipedia-en
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20:13 < The_Blade> Funny note; her son never had autism.  He had Landau-Kleffner syndrome.
20:14 < funnyfarm299> Evening.
20:14 < eeekster> I didn't do that, Mareklug
20:14 < mareklug> eeek is a common exclamation.  something akin to jeeez.  better rename thyself to _eeekster
20:15 -!- Jamesofur is now known as Jamesofur|away
20:15 < eeekster> perhaps you are thinking of eek?
20:15 < Soapy> lol
20:15 < IDoH> "The syndrome can be difficult to diagnose and may be misdiagnosed as autism, pervasive developmental disorder, hearing impairment, learning disability, auditory/verbal processing disorder, attention deficit disorder, mental retardation, childhood schizophrenia, or emotional/behavioral problems." --http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landau%E2%80%93Kleffner_syndrome
20:15 < mareklug> heh.  I was given this tracking number:  LK684964833CN   never seen that b4.
20:15 < Soapy> a tracking number with letters in it
20:16 < mareklug> eeekster eek would be akin to jeez.  but I said expressly jeeez.
20:16 -!- Pancetta [~quassel@static-68-239-82-231.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #wikipedia-en
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20:16 < The_Blade> It's also curable, if you get the right speech therapy.  I note that chelation isn't listed as treatment, but it hasn't stopped plenty of people.
20:17 -!- harej [~quassel@wikipedia/MessedRocker] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
20:17 < eeekster> this doesn't appear to be encyclopedic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Battle_of_Saint-Marie.png
20:17 < IDoH> The_Blade: Speech therapy, and anti-seizure meds
20:17 < Soapy> theres a lot of antivaccine people on Wikipedia
20:17  * IDoH facepalms at Soapys' statement
20:17 < IDoH> Why?
20:18 < Soapy> Wikipedia is editable
20:18 < eeekster> to spread the "word"
20:18 < Soapy> therefore they come to Wikipedia to get their ideas out to the masses
20:18 < Soapy> the first person who welcomed me to Wikipedia was one of them
20:18 < Soapy> I think he was just being nice, not trying to recruit me onto his side or anything
20:20 < The_Blade> Before I was an admin, I had the pleasure of reporting User:GenerationRescue Official to UAA so it could be blocked.
20:21 -!- Pharos [~chatzilla@pool-96-224-16-128.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #wikipedia-en
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20:22 < IDoH> The_Blade: Thanks for reporting that
20:22 < Soapy> i remember User:GenerationRescue
20:22 -!- Pharos [~chatzilla@pool-96-224-16-128.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host]
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20:22 < Soapy> which may or may not be the same person
20:23 < The_Blade> Probably was; that page was plagued by someone representing Generation Rescue for a while.
20:23 < eeekster> do coal balls cause autism? (ducking)
20:24 < The_Blade> Andrew Wakefield would no doubt find a way to connect them...
20:25 < funnyfarm299> I dunno, but I heard they have a 33% correlation rate with global warming
20:25 < funnyfarm299> Ihavenoideawhatijustsaid
20:25 < mareklug> soap Amazon.com expandsing into selling foodstuffs of perishable kind, such as eggs and strawberries.
20:27 < The_Blade> I found that out yesterday looking for haggis; Amazon actually sells canned haggis.
20:27 < mareklug> canned is no trick.  but I wonder how they will manage large quantities of fresh strawberries.
20:29 -!- Firefly67 [~Firefly67@unaffiliated/firefly67] has joined #wikipedia-en
20:29 < eeekster> He's still arguing about the photo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Surfer43#Replaceable_fair_use_File:Hispaniola_greater_funnel-eared_bat_in_Los_Haitises_National_Park.jpg
20:29 < eeekster> why would anybody can haggis?
20:30 < mareklug> eeekster it safely encapsulates haggis, so you don't have to a) look at it, b) smell it.
20:30 < eeekster> or c) eat it
20:31 < eeekster> wasn't scotch invented to wash away the taste?
20:31 < Soapy> lol
20:31 < eeekster> or was scotch to make golf tolerable
20:31 < The_Blade> Hey, I *like* haggis.
20:31 < The_Blade> Haven't had it in 4 years, but it's still great.
20:32 < mareklug> http://www.tapscape.com/2013-mac-pro-mini-design-coming-fall/
20:32 -!- Hahc21 [~Hahc21@wikipedia/Hahc21] has joined #wikipedia-en
20:33 < Soapy> interestingly Apple says theyre discontinuing the iPhone. They admitted Android is better
20:33 < mareklug> you mean iPhone 4.
20:34 < eeekster> For people that claim to like haggis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroconvulsive_therapy
20:34 < mareklug> eeekster now now.  ECT has been known to help people.  Haggis?  Not so much.
20:37 < eeekster> and ECT can't help people that like haggis?
20:38 < eeekster> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcnFbCCgTo4
20:38 -!- Jamesofur|away is now known as Jamesofur
20:38 < mareklug> eeekster like Florence and the Machine sings, "a kiss with a fist is better than none"
20:38 -!- ChrisGualtieri [~IceChat77@wikipedia/ChrisGualtieri] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20:39 -!- Gfoley4 [~Gfoley4@wikipedia/Gfoley4] has joined #wikipedia-en
20:39  * eeekster notices The_Blade has been very quiet
20:39 < mareklug> we have been disparraging his haggis.  Maybe he needs some asparagus with that.
20:40 -!- James_F|Away is now known as James_F
20:40 < The_Blade> Sorry, got a little zoned in on the Yankee game.
20:40 < The_Blade> Besides, I know I'm right, so what else is there to say?
20:40 < eeekster> yep
20:40 < eeekster> sure
20:41 -!- Pancetta is now known as harej
20:42  * The_Blade is trying to watch his diet these days, so he probably won't have any haggis for a while anyway.
20:44 < mareklug> eeekster see?  he said "watch".  I bet that is why he is talking canned haggis
20:44 -!- Demiurge1000 [~chatzilla@wikipedia/Demiurge1000] has joined #wikipedia-en
20:44 -!- Jasper_Deng is now known as Jasper_Deng_away
20:44 -!- sucheta [~sucheta@yuvipanda.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #wikipedia-en
20:44 < mareklug> Watcher of the Haggis
20:45 < The_Blade> I actually managed to convince someone who went to Scotland with me that a haggis is an animal which has to be hunted.  He kept asking when we would go haggis hunting.
20:45 < The_Blade> Problem is, it's really high in cholesterol.
20:46 < mareklug> it's unclear how much you blood cholesterol is tied to food inake of cholesterol anyway.  Your body makes the bulk of your cholesterol.
20:46 -!- funnyfarm299 [~funnyfarm@wikipedia/Funnyfarmofdoom] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de]
20:47 < The_Blade> Yes, that's true, but I freaked myself out enough that I needed an EKG two weeks ago to allay my concerns; I don't really want to *create* a problem now that I know there isn't one.
20:48 < Soapy> i probly have a high cholesterol level
20:50 < mareklug> http://www.engadget.com/2013/06/07/scientists-build-soft-transparent-contact-lens-displays/    google glass you say?
20:51 < ToAruShiroiNeko> ow
20:51 < ToAruShiroiNeko> thats google lens
20:52 < mareklug> you just antagonized tjhe AntiSpamMeta driver, ToAruShiroiNeko
20:52 < ToAruShiroiNeko> :(
20:52 -!- heatherw [~hwalls@wikimedia/heatherawalls] has quit [Quit: heatherw]
20:53 -!- heatherw [~hwalls@wikimedia/heatherawalls] has joined #wikipedia-en
20:53 -!- wctaiwan [~wctaiwan@wikipedia/wctaiwan] has joined #wikipedia-en
20:56 -!- heatherw [~hwalls@wikimedia/heatherawalls] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
20:57 -!- GorillaWarfare is now known as GW
20:57 -!- GW is now known as GorillaWarfare
20:57 < mareklug> "While Google's Android is the most popular smartphone platform among consumers, Apple's iOS remains the default choice for the majority of business customers activating phones and tablets, according to the latest data from Good Technology."   http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/06/05/androids-consumer-strength-hasnt-translated-to-enterprise-where-apple-still-dominates
20:59 < harej> I have a question about editing MediaWiki:Common.css on Wikipedia. I may work on a main page redesign (commensurate with the ongoing discussion) which may involved custom CSS. So that all people can see the CSS, would I be allowed to put the CSS on MediaWiki:Common.css, or would that be severely inappropriate?
21:00 < harej> Obviously I would test it out in my personal CSS first and it would not be code that would interfere with anything else; it would be its own thing.
21:00 < harej> It feels so unnecessarily selfish, but the only alternative I can think of is asking people to copy+paste my CSS into their stylesheet. Or I could find a way to make everything inline.
21:01 < ToAruShiroiNeko> mareklug I can imagine how apple can dominate
21:02 < Ironholds> harej: as a test?
21:02 < ToAruShiroiNeko> that strategy didnt help blackberry
21:02 < harej> Ironholds, as a "I've prepared this thing for y'all and I'd like for y'all to look."
21:02 < harej> Testing would be done with my own personal stylesheet, obviously.
21:02 < Ironholds> harej: that would be tremendously inappropriate, yes. I would strongly suggest you just have people link to your stylesheet.
21:02 < harej> Oh right, people can do that!
21:02 < Ironholds> yup
21:03 < harej> It's just a one-line code isn't it?
21:03 < Ironholds> yup
21:04 < Charmlet> harej: you can ask people to just import your CSS
21:04 < Charmlet> into their CSS
21:04 < harej> That's a good middle solution. Thank you.
21:04 < Charmlet> yes, it's the one line import code :D
21:04 -!- GorillaWarfare [~GorillaWa@wikipedia/GorillaWarfare] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:04 < Ironholds> Charmlet: that's what I just said, yes.
21:04 < Ironholds> anyway, I'm going to go fall over now because I've been working for 14 hours.
21:04 < Charmlet> Ironholds: sorry >.> I didn't read "link" as import
21:04 -!- The_Blade [~chatzilla@wikipedia/The-Blade-of-the-Northern-Lights] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 21.0/20130511120803]]
21:04 < Charmlet> <.< that's not good.
21:04 < Charmlet> have fun tho :D
21:04 < Ironholds> Charmlet: *blinks*
21:04 -!- Jasper_Deng_away is now known as Jasper_Deng
21:04 < Charmlet> Ironholds: wat?
21:04 < Ironholds> I was, yes, suggesting people merely provide [[links]] as a way of getting the CSS.
21:05 < Charmlet> oh ok.
21:05 < Ironholds> you mean it doesn't work like that? Next you'll tell me printing out my website and handing copies to people is not how you distribute such things.
21:05 -!- RAN1 [ran1@unaffiliated/ran1] has joined #wikipedia-en
21:05 < harej> There's also the one-line code to effectively transclude a stylesheet
21:05 -!- Guerillero [~Gueriller@209.243.37.82] has joined #wikipedia-en
21:05 -!- Guerillero [~Gueriller@209.243.37.82] has quit [Changing host]
21:05 -!- Guerillero [~Gueriller@wikipedia/Guerillero] has joined #wikipedia-en
21:05 < harej> Say I create User:Harej/mainpageredesign.css
21:05 < Charmlet> Ironholds: <.< you should sleep before I get mad :)
21:05 < Ironholds> harej: that is what I was referring to, yes ;p. I am merely mocking Charmlet
21:05 < Ironholds> Charmlet: you're already mad, hon
21:05 -!- tos [TOS@wikipedia/TheOriginalSoni] has joined #wikipedia-en
21:06 < Charmlet> Ironholds: I'm always mad. at all of you in here.
21:06 < Ironholds> I meant insane, not angry, but sure.
21:06 < Ironholds> anyway. sleepy-time for the tired community monkey.
21:06 < Charmlet> Ironholds: >.>
21:06 < Charmlet> you're horribly mean to me and I just can't take it anymore.
21:07  * Charmlet shoots Wikipedia in the foot.
21:07 -!- Demiurge1000 is now known as D1000|Away
21:08 < RAN1> Hi, I have a question: If there's a user that appears to be an SPA who has c+p'd copyrighted promotional material into an organization's article and its child organization, is there somewhere where I should report that?
21:09 < tos> Article?
21:09 < RAN1> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=National_Honor_Society&oldid=558798629
21:09 < RAN1> Currently it's been blanked with a copyvio template.
21:09 < RAN1> All of that material are chunks plucked from http://www.nhs.us/portals/3/content/55490.pdf
21:09 -!- assadDVD [ThrashIRC@cm75.eta29.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #wikipedia-en
21:09 -!- harej [~quassel@wikipedia/MessedRocker] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.]
21:09 -!- Ironholds is now known as IH|away
21:10 -!- Mitchazenia [~richardpe@ool-45786a94.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #wikipedia-en
21:10 < RAN1> No clue if it's the organization that published the material, but it is copyrighted, doesn't fall in with Creative Commons in any case.
21:10 -!- Gfoley4 [~Gfoley4@wikipedia/Gfoley4] has quit [Quit: !]
21:11 -!- assadDVD [ThrashIRC@cm75.eta29.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Client Quit]
21:11 < IDoH> RAN1: SPA=Sockpuppet abuser, right?
21:11 < RAN1> Um.
21:11 < wctaiwan> nope
21:11 < RAN1> Single purpose account
21:11 < IDoH> Sorry. Got it better now
21:12 < RAN1> i.e. this account has only edited organization articles whose subject are the NASSP (NHS's parent organization) and its child organizations
21:13 < RAN1> Here's the contribs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Editor9988
21:13 -!- heatherw [~hwalls@50-1-118-158.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #wikipedia-en
21:13 -!- heatherw [~hwalls@50-1-118-158.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Changing host]
21:13 -!- heatherw [~hwalls@wikimedia/heatherawalls] has joined #wikipedia-en
21:14 -!- svenryen [~svenryen@182.55.78.70] has joined #wikipedia-en
21:14 < RAN1> So, is there somewhere where I should report the user? It looks like the NASSP article may have similar copyvio issues, but with multiple sources so I haven't been able to cross-check yet.
21:15 < mareklug> Soapy did you see my newest self-authored contribution to Commons/Wikipedia ?  http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Blackfeet_res._--_rockies.jpg
21:15 < RAN1> Both descriptions look conspicuously Polski.
21:16 < mareklug> i just fixed that
21:16 < mareklug> reload
21:17 < mareklug> dunno how that happened, blame the tool.  I was following it for the first time.
21:18 < RAN1> Um, so, for those of you that asked me questions about my question earlier, is there somewhere where I should report that?
21:19 < wctaiwan> RAN1: is the editor making biased edits?
21:19 < tos> wctaiwan, scroll up
21:19 < wctaiwan> SPA itself isn't forbidden. It just makes you more likely to be scrutinised
21:20 < wctaiwan> oh, I see
21:20 -!- Beria [~Beria@wikimedia/Beria] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
21:20 -!- Zhaofeng_Li [Elite3737@wikipedia/Zhaofeng-Li] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
21:20 < RAN1> wctaiwan: It's not so much the SPA as the promotion using copyrighted materials, basically falls under copyvio.
21:20 < wctaiwan> er, just revert them and tell them that they shouldn't be doing that.
21:21 < RAN1> wctaiwan: These edits go back to 2010.
21:21 < wctaiwan> have they been told about not adding copyrighted / promotional content
21:21 < wctaiwan> ?
21:22 < RAN1> Nope, never.
21:23 < wctaiwan> then just revert them and tell them for now
21:23 -!- Malvolio [~Malvolio@unaffiliated/malvolio] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
21:23 < RAN1> wctaiwan: I'm not sure what to do about this since both articles were injected with copyvio material about 2 years ago.
21:24 < wctaiwan> well, technically you should ask for the revisions containing copyvio to be revdeleted
21:24 < wctaiwan> but the main thing is just to revert it and make sure it doesn't happen again.
21:25 < Soapy> cool
21:27 -!- Zhaofeng_Li [Elite3737@wikipedia/Zhaofeng-Li] has joined #wikipedia-en
21:28 < mareklug> Soapy cool what
21:29 < RAN1> Thanks wctaiwan.
21:30 < wctaiwan> np
21:30 < ToAruShiroiNeko> mareklug: http://www.ezbuysdirect.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/650x650/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/o/v/oversized-cat-pink-iphone5-1.jpg
21:30 < mareklug> that's sick
21:31 -!- Pink|busy is now known as PinkAmpersand
21:31 < ToAruShiroiNeko> ya
21:31 < ToAruShiroiNeko> imagine how many cats were sacrificed for it
21:31 < ToAruShiroiNeko> http://img1.etsystatic.com/005/0/7339986/il_fullxfull.388073789_hwav.jpg
21:31 < Soapy> one of my coworkers had a phone case that made it look like a Winnie the Pooh doll
21:32 < mareklug> the esthetic of an entire nation died at the feet of kawaii.  Japan used to be famous for its sparse elegance.
21:32 < mareklug> now it is for its emetic pinkness.
21:32 < PinkAmpersand> pink things are great!
21:32 < ToAruShiroiNeko> http://www.colourblocker.com.au/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/p/i/pink-iphone-rabbit-case-750x750_2.jpeg
21:32 < ToAruShiroiNeko> mareklug like that?
21:33 < mareklug> as a holder of a former pink princess-style telephone, I can see that.  But not kawaii pinkness.
21:33 < ToAruShiroiNeko> I wonder if it can bounce
21:33 -!- Mitchazenia [~richardpe@ool-45786a94.dyn.optonline.net] has left #wikipedia-en []
21:35 < ToAruShiroiNeko> http://www.ezbuysdirect.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/650x650/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/p/o/polka-dots-bunny-pink-iphone5-1.jpg
21:35 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Rilakkuma http://www.case-parts.com/uploads/details/IPHONE5-122E-1.jpg
21:36 -!- harej [~quassel@wikipedia/MessedRocker] has joined #wikipedia-en
21:38 -!- Zhaofeng_Li [Elite3737@wikipedia/Zhaofeng-Li] has quit [Quit: Bouncing around with EliteBNC]
21:38 -!- matt_buck [~mattbuck@host86-134-194-16.range86-134.btcentralplus.com] has joined #wikipedia-en
21:38 -!- mattbuck [~mattbuck@host86-134-59-34.range86-134.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
21:41 -!- Soapy is now known as {soap|bed}
21:43 < ToAruShiroiNeko> mareklug do you think obama would have better reception if he wore a pink suit?
21:43 -!- matt_buck is now known as mattbuck
21:45 -!- Zhaofeng_Li [Elite3737@wikipedia/Zhaofeng-Li] has joined #wikipedia-en
21:45 -!- Zhaofeng_Li [Elite3737@wikipedia/Zhaofeng-Li] has quit [Excess Flood]
21:47 < SigmaWP> !admin https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=558861082
21:47 < Guerillero> gone
21:47 < alisonc> SigmaWP: Seriously?
21:47 < PinkAmpersand> lol why's that !_admin-worthy? don't like gay porn, sigma?
21:48 < Jasper_Deng> it's not an emergency
21:48 < Swarlley> yes it is.
21:48 < Swarlley> think of the children
21:48 < IDoH> What constitutes an emergency?
21:48 < wctaiwan> OMG THE WIKI IS BLOWING UP
21:48 < wctaiwan> ^ that.
21:48 -!- anona [~z31fcs@99-90-197-87.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #wikipedia-en
21:49 < wctaiwan> idk though, I didn't see the diff.
21:49  * PinkAmpersand goes to watch Luke Dickwalker
21:49 < BlastHardcheese> she cannae take much more o this capn'!
21:49 < wctaiwan> O_o
21:49 < PinkAmpersand> wctaiwan: "Luke Dickwalker: A Rule 34 film of Luke Skywalker and Han Solo from the popular Sci-Fi series, Star Wars. Can be found on rule34.paheal.net"
21:49 < wctaiwan> PinkAmpersand: deduct 2 points for horrible name.
21:49 < Swarlley> PinkAmpersand: link to the stink http://rule34.paheal.net NSFW
21:55 < PinkAmpersand> Swarlley: lol i know what rule34 is
21:55 < Swarlley> PinkAmpersand: of the bro code?
21:55 < PinkAmpersand> of the Internet
21:56 < PinkAmpersand> rule34.paheal.net has a Wikipe-tan section. do not go there if you don't want to be arrested. ;)
21:56 -!- Zhaofeng_Li [Elite3737@wikipedia/Zhaofeng-Li] has joined #wikipedia-en
21:59 -!- M132T003C [~MTC@176.254.35.61] has joined #wikipedia-en
21:59 -!- M132T003C [~MTC@176.254.35.61] has quit [Changing host]
21:59 -!- M132T003C [~MTC@wikimedia/MTC] has joined #wikipedia-en
22:00 -!- {soap|bed} [~Soap@wikipedia/soap] has quit [Quit: bed]
22:00 -!- Seahorse [~Seahorse@wikipedia/Seahorseruler] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 21.0/20130511120803]]
22:00  * tos checks out the wikipetan section
22:01 -!- Jamesofur is now known as Jamesofur|away
22:01 < tos> PinkAmpersand the worst application of rule 34 i've seen is from harry potter series
22:01 < PinkAmpersand> how so?
22:03 < tos> Dont ask questions you don't want to know the answer to
22:07 < BlastHardcheese> harry/hedwig fanfiction?
22:07 < wctaiwan> .....
22:07 < tos> No
22:07 < alisonc> tos: Hagrid/Basilisk
22:07 < tos> But thats close to how gross ash/pikachu is
22:08 < wctaiwan> ……..
22:08 < alisonc> wctaiwan: pretty much
22:08 < tos> alisonc, if that exists, then thats probably worse I think
22:08 < tos> I've seen giant squid+hogwarts though
22:09 < PinkAmpersand> when it comes to fanfiction discussion, never forget this:
22:10 < PinkAmpersand> /Fairly OddParents/ had canon mpreg
22:10 < PinkAmpersand> I have a friend who called me one night, basically in tears (of joy) over that fact.
22:11  * petan slaps tos
22:11 < petan> it is wiki-pe-tan
22:11 < petan> no wikipetan
22:11 < tos> Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned
22:12 < alisonc> PinkAmpersand: Cosmo?
22:12 < PinkAmpersand> alisonc: but of course.
22:12 < tos> speaking of fanfics, anyone here read hpmor?
22:12 < PinkAmpersand> though they say that all male fairies carry babies
22:12 < PinkAmpersand> he's just the only one we see do it
22:14 < wctaiwan> petan: maybe you should modify your client to only ping on exact matches ;-)
22:14  * PinkAmpersand got pinged about 20 times during that discussion of pink things
22:14 < petan> wctaiwan: maybe people should say wikipe-tan :PP
22:15  * tos gets randomly pinged whenever people say terms of service
22:15 < PinkAmpersand> petan: when tos spelled it that way, i literally thought "Hmm, I wonder if petan is gonna get pinged because of that"
22:15 < petan> heh
22:15 < mareklug> just follow my advice for eeekster and change yourself to _tos
22:15 < PinkAmpersand> tos: i said the whole phrase earlier today, just for you :)
22:15 < tos> No!
22:16 < tos> PinkAmpersand, where?
22:16 < PinkAmpersand> tos: when i wanted to get a lawyer disbarred for spamming
22:16 < PinkAmpersand> i pointed out that doing so violated our terms of service, thereby bringing disrepute upon the bar
22:16  * tos busy trying to find all words that have the letters petan in it
22:16 < mareklug> why should a lawyer be disbarred for spamming?
22:16 < tos> you said it so I dont get pinged?
22:17 < Jasper_Deng> mareklug: b/c it's something illegal
22:17 < Jasper_Deng> under the terms of service
22:17 < alisonc> mareklug: dishonour unto the profession
22:17 < mareklug> spamming is illegal?  show me where in the US Criminal code spamming is illegal.  That's section 18, to help you get started.
22:17 < PinkAmpersand> well, no, terms of service violations are not illegal
22:18 < Jasper_Deng> no, WMF is a private website, it has the right to make whatever rules it wants, right?
22:18 < PinkAmpersand> Jasper_Deng: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Lori_Drew
22:18 < Jasper_Deng> and the only remedy from those rules is to not use the sites.
22:18 < mareklug> Jasper_Deng you really do like to talk through your hat, don't you
22:19 < tos> If a user has been only-warned before, and he's still making definite spams, thats AIV, right?
22:19 < tos> *vandalism
22:19 < Jasper_Deng> TOS: well, this spambot was on Wikidata
22:19 < Jasper_Deng> Pink blocked it
22:20 < PinkAmpersand> "Wu found that an intentional breach of the MySpace Terms of Service could possibly satisfy the definition of an unauthorized access or access exceeding authorization, but that rooting a CFAA misdemeanor violation in an individual's conscious violation of a website's Terms of Service would render the statute void for vagueness because there were insufficient
22:20 < PinkAmpersand> guidelines to govern law enforcement as well as a lack of actual notice to the public."
22:20 < Jasper_Deng> no warning needed, obvious spam/bot/ is obvious.
22:20 < mareklug> under the First Amendment, anyone can send out whatever email advertising they deem advantageous to their business, without government interference.  Therefore, it cannot be illegal.  Therefore, there is no ground to disbar a lawyer or throw a plumber out of the union. :)
22:20 < PinkAmpersand> actually, i wasn't 100% it was a bot
22:20 < tos> PinkAmpersand, admin righ?
22:20 < PinkAmpersand> i left a template and kept tpa open
22:20 < Jasper_Deng> yeah, Pink and I are admins there
22:20 < Jasper_Deng> (not here)
22:20 < tos> ok
22:21 < Jasper_Deng> in any case, I think the account was locked
22:21 < PinkAmpersand> mareklug: however, lawyers can be disbarred for things that aren't illegal
22:21 < Jasper_Deng> wait, nvmd
22:21 < tos> I'll just report the old fashioned way
22:21 -!- Jamesofur|away is now known as Jamesofur
22:21 < alisonc> Can a lawyer be excommunicated for bringing dishonour unto the profession?
22:21 < tos> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Latgale&diff=prev&oldid=558862748 << I liked this edit
22:21 < mareklug> PinkAmpersand they cannot be disbarred for advertising nondeceptively their services.
22:21 < tos> excommunicated?
22:21 < alisonc> tos: dislawyered
22:21 < tos> The church does that, no?
22:22 < tos> Ah
22:22 < Jasper_Deng> mareklug: you could argue it's deception if it's using a false identity like a spambot, am I right?
22:22 < PinkAmpersand> mareklug: in violation of the terms of service of a privately run charitable organization?
22:22 < tos> "You did not follow the Wikipedia terms of service. Hence you are no longer a christian" <<How I read that
22:22 < PinkAmpersand> using random websites to advertise yourself is well below what's expected of licensed attorneys
22:22 < mareklug> PinkAmpersand I am sorry, but this is more slippery slope.  First it was supposed to be illegal, then unethical, now merely a violation of somebody's private rules.
22:23 < Jasper_Deng> it's the latter two
22:23 < Jasper_Deng> at the very least
22:23 < PinkAmpersand> never said it was illegal. just potentially disbarrable
22:23 < ToAruShiroiNeko> mareklug thats not entirely correct
22:23 -!- AzaToth [~azatoth@wikipedia/AzaToth] has joined #wikipedia-en
22:23 < Swarlley> Who here plays poker?
22:23 < ToAruShiroiNeko> 1st amendment doesnt cover spam
22:23 < PinkAmpersand> i'll give my grandmother a ring tomorrow and ask. she used to sit on the board that disbars people here
22:23 < mareklug> Swarlley there is this lady in Atlanta that does, and she has made 4 million already.
22:23 < tos> Swarlley, is chess close enough?
22:24 < ToAruShiroiNeko> especially if the mail is sent by hacked computers against the will of the owners
22:24 < PinkAmpersand> Swarlley: li'l bit
22:24 < mareklug> ToAruShiroiNeko now you are talking about some illegal activities. I am talking about a lawyer who spams, just sends a lot of emails.
22:24 < PinkAmpersand> ToAruShiroiNeko: ooh, a good point. this guy could technically be an accesorry to hacking if the spambot was implanted with malware
22:24 < Jasper_Deng> mareklug: except, this is wiki spamming
22:25 < Jasper_Deng> we're talking about
22:25 < ToAruShiroiNeko> mareklug I am not certain thats the case
22:25 < ToAruShiroiNeko> but these blokes tend to use/rent a botnet for the task
22:25 < ToAruShiroiNeko> gaining a databse of emails is also often done through not so strictly legal means
22:26 < SigmaWP> lol
22:27 < tos> I always wondered how Nigerian princes always used to find me
22:27 < mareklug> ToAruShiroiNeko nonsense.  equally you could say that obtaining a Windows 7 pro license is also often done thorugh nto so strictly legal means.  Ppl can buy addresses -- it is offered by lots of sellers.
22:27 < PinkAmpersand> mareklug: "I chose to go with Houston Criminal Lawyer Charles Johnson as my  Solicitation of Minor attorney. He exceeded all of my expectations. If you need a criminal defense attorney criminal defense attorney in Houston,  Contact The Top Sex Crimes Attorney in Harris County today at [http://deptak.org/blogs/user/JosefinaBe Harris County Sex Crimes
22:27 < PinkAmpersand> Attorney]."
22:27 < Jasper_Deng> email spamming is illegal
22:27 < PinkAmpersand> brb while i reboot my computer. just accidentally restored that page while copying that, thanks to a screwed-up cursor.
22:27 < IDoH> I've wondered that, TOS
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22:28 < tos> I'm hundred percent sure I know who's behind most of these mails
22:29 < IDoH> Who, tos?
22:29 < IDoH> Might want to contact the FBI if you do
22:29 < tos> Nopes
22:29 < mareklug> Jasper_Deng talking through your hat again?  "If the spam fails to comply with any of these requirements it is illegal."  from our very own article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Email_spam
22:29 < tos> They're breached already
22:30 < mareklug> The legal status of spam varies from one jurisdiction to another. In the United States, spam was declared to be legal by the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 provided the message adheres to certain specifications. ISPs have attempted to recover the cost of spam through lawsuits against spammers, although they have been mostly unsuccessful in collecting damages despite winning in court.[8][9]
22:31 < ToAruShiroiNeko> mareklug US laws only apply to the US
22:31 < IDoH> mareklug: Why, because the spammers simply wouldn't pay?
22:31 < PinkAmpersand> ToAruShiroiNeko: except at Nuremburg :D
22:31 < ToAruShiroiNeko> IDoH they just hide behind loopholes
22:31 < IDoH> I see, ToAruShiroiNeko
22:32 < ToAruShiroiNeko> and also island nations
22:32 < ToAruShiroiNeko> spam need very high volume to be profitable
22:33 < IDoH> True
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22:34 < PinkAmpersand> my point is simply that for a lawyer to be in any way affiliated with spam is bad. lawyers are expected to uphold certain ethical requirements.
22:34 < Jasper_Deng> ^
22:34 < ToAruShiroiNeko> hah!
22:34 < ToAruShiroiNeko> lawyers? ethics?
22:34 < ToAruShiroiNeko> :p
22:34 < PinkAmpersand> and either this guy deliberately had someone do this, or he hired some people to do some very shady SEO work, knowing full well it would entail less-than-legitimate stuff like this
22:35 < ToAruShiroiNeko> of course
22:35 < ToAruShiroiNeko> spamming is serious business
22:35 < ToAruShiroiNeko> there are volume limits on free providers
22:35 < ToAruShiroiNeko> and unfree providers dont like their services used for spam
22:35 < PinkAmpersand> so, to repeat what I said when I mentioned this earlier... maybe I'll give him a call, and see if he'd be interested in making a charitable donation to the Wikimedia Foundation or Wikimedia Germany (since they run Wikidata), to offset the damage he's done. ;D
22:35 < ToAruShiroiNeko> he clearly didnt send emails on his own
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22:37 < Jasper_Deng> ToAruShiroiNeko: which doesn't make it less unethical
22:37 < ToAruShiroiNeko> I dont think the moral standard in a society is lawyers
22:37 < PinkAmpersand> i also like that the spam(mer|bot) was indicted for soliciting sex from a minor... maybe the first ever person to be blockable under both the spam policy and the child protection policy? ;)
22:38 < ToAruShiroiNeko> any more than politicians :p
22:38 < Jasper_Deng> Philippe may be able to give us more answers
22:38 < mareklug> PinkAmpersand in 1997 a lawyer was disbarred for internet/usenet spamming in Tennessee (for a year), but he was a real nuissance, not what you are trying to disbar the wiki editor for.
22:39 < mareklug> http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/1997/07/5060
22:39 < PinkAmpersand> huh. whaddaya know. well, maybe this guy already has a few warnings :P
22:40 < PinkAmpersand> i mean, Clinton got disbarred for lying to Congress. so it can't be *that* hard
22:41 < PinkAmpersand> mareklug: cool article! so that guy, like, is the reason for modern anti-spam technology?
22:42 < PinkAmpersand> huh. just got a 500 error in Wired. ironic.
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23:40 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Obama to take away our bugs
23:41 < Dcoetzee> What
23:41 < Dcoetzee> Obama is against insects?
23:41 < ToAruShiroiNeko> remember that fly incident
23:41 < ToAruShiroiNeko> he didnt even bother with a drone
23:41 < ToAruShiroiNeko> it was up close and personal
23:41 < ToAruShiroiNeko> clear evidence of his anti-insect agenda
23:42 < Dcoetzee> But reports say that insects were present in and around the Twin Towers on 9/11
23:42 < Dcoetzee> That seems very suspicious to me
23:42 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Dcoetzee I heard one terrorist that planned the attacks was bitten by a mosquto
23:42 < Dcoetzee> Aha! A direct connection
23:43 < ToAruShiroiNeko> "bitten" or CIA genetic coding?
23:43 < ToAruShiroiNeko> another had crabs
23:43 < ToAruShiroiNeko> STMC
23:43 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Sexually Transmitted Mind Control
23:43 < Dcoetzee> Crabs are very deceptive
23:44 < ToAruShiroiNeko> they also face extinction
23:44 < Dcoetzee> They pretend like they're crustaceans. But in reality, they're insects too.
23:44 < tos> They're lying!
23:44 < Dcoetzee> The insect conspiracy goes ever deeper.
23:45 < wctaiwan> It's the hive mind.
23:45 < ToAruShiroiNeko> http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-april-8-2013/beasts-of-the-southern-wild
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23:45 < ToAruShiroiNeko> "Brazilian wax-and-burn techniques have threatened the ecosystem of pubic lice, but Jessica Williams hasn't given up hope for their survival."
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--- Log closed Sat Jun 08 00:00:55 2013